LDS Really interesting discussion between Christian and Mormon on Salvation

[ArmenianJohn]

So there is a Christian Minster wearing a miss quote from a Prophet of God, Joseph Smith.

What does that say about the minster?

"Any communication with the intent to deceive is a lie" (Ashton) and all lies are of the Devil who is the father of lies.

He didn't misquote Joseph Smith. He quoted him and emphasized the part that is wrong. Daily repentance is not something one should stop, no matter what. Of course, Joseph Smith never truly preached anything in line with the Christian Gospel.

 

[silvermoon383]

I think there are more words on the shirt.

Did you read only what you wanted to read?

There are two very large words that are impossible to miss. Anyone who would just be passing by would only see those two words. One would think that a Christian minister would want to have something else be the "at a glance" message he portrays.

And that's before we get to the small text that is a quote that has been doctored to say something completely different than what the speaker said.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

There are two very large words that are impossible to miss. Anyone who would just be passing by would only see those two words. One would think that a Christian minister would want to have something else be the "at a glance" message he portrays.

And that's before we get to the small text that is a quote that has been doctored to say something completely different than what the speaker said.

It's not saying something completely different. No Christian minister would tell anyone to stop repenting in lieu of obeying the commandments, despite the fact that people should be changed and not stuck in sin. The reason for that is because even though people change, they don't become perfect. Some people will and do have a problem with recurring sin despite becoming changed. The change is what drives them to continued repentance. To say "Stop Repenting" under any circumstance is against the Christian message. Considering Joseph Smith is supposed to be a prophet who doesn't say anything wrong his statement can't be fixed with his other words. He is clearly preaching something anti-Christian and this Christian's T-shirt highlights that.

 

[Jane_Doe]

There are two very large words that are impossible to miss. Anyone who would just be passing by would only see those two words. One would think that a Christian minister would want to have something else be the "at a glance" message he portrays.

And that's before we get to the small text that is a quote that has been doctored to say something completely different than what the speaker said.

I don't understand why a person whom believes he has the Truth would choose to advertise it by wearing a shirt which 1) contradicts his theology, 2) uses a doctored quote, and 3) is intended to flame even before a conservation starts.

Why would a minister whom believes he has the Truth not instead just portray Truth? That I do not understand.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I don't understand why a person whom believes he has the Truth would choose to advertise it by wearing a shirt which 1) contradicts his theology, 2) uses a doctored quote, and 3) is intended to flame even before a conservation starts.

Why would a minister whom believes he has the Truth not instead just portray Truth?

I understand why. It's made clear by the reactions of mormons here. The initial reaction from a mormon (or two) was "does his shirt really say that?" or something to that effect; in other words, shock at such a statement. He is looking for that reaction so he can educate the mormons who react that way as to the fact that their very prophet said it. If those mormons react to that truth by saying "Well, he also said [this and that]..." he has accomplished what he wanted - he opened up a dialog with them and he can go on to explain that it doesn't matter what else Joseph said because he still said to "stop repenting" which is never the right thing.

You may not like that way of doing it but you should understand why he did it. I don't care for it and would never do that myself, but it makes sense why he does it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

He is looking for that reaction so he can educate the mormons who react that way as to the fact that their very prophet said it.

Except that the quote doesn't actually say what he's portraying it to say-- it's doctored. By wearing it, the minister is bearing false witness, flaming, becoming only a sounding brass (1 Corn 13:1), and successfully convincing people that he does not know Christ.

I don't care for it and would never do that myself

You have declared your endorsement of the man and his methods by re-posting his video and starting this thread.

 

[withwonderingawe]

He didn't misquote Joseph Smith. He quoted him and emphasized the part that is wrong. Daily repentance is not something one should stop, no matter what. Of course, Joseph Smith never truly preached anything in line with the Christian Gospel.

Nooooo, he left out the true meaning of Joseph's thoughts that preacher got caught in a lie!


Once again his whole quote;
“Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.”

John 8: 1 "....And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more"

Note he did not in this case forgive her sin but instructed her to sin no more, he was going to wait and see.

He told a man he healed "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." John 5

And Paul wrote in chapter 6
"1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

A person can not commit adultery one night, repent the next day, commit adultery the next night, repent the following day, commit adultery, repent, commit adultery, repent etc etc etc

That is not real repentance that is trifling with repentance. Real repentance changes the heart and sets a man on a different road. Paul goes on to say;

" Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life....Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.... Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Sure we need to repent each day but at some point we need to overcome those big sins and not have to repent of them because we no longer do them.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Except that the quote doesn't actually say what he's portraying it to say-- it's doctored. By wearing it, the minister is bearing false witness, flaming, becoming only a sounding brass (1 Corn 13:1), and successfully convincing people that he does not know Christ.


You have declared your endorsement of the man and his methods by re-posting his video and starting this thread.

"Sounding brass" that's good!

 

[Deadworm]

I think the video is a great conversation starter, despite the noisy background. As a debate, I'd give the edge to the minister, but with this reservation. In my view, his presentation was marred by his evident belief in eternal security, a belief that prevented him from doing justice to James and caused him to overlook the fact that the Greek word for faith ("pistis") means both "trust" and "faithfulness." In my experience, belief in eternal security often causes Christians to trivialize the urgency of regular confession of sin and repentance as part of the sanctification process.

Street witnessing can be incredibly effective. At age 19, during a period of doubt, I joined YWAM (Youth with a Mission) for a couple of months and spent all day street witnessing in Toronto and Montreal. Once, my witnessing partner and I encountered a couple sitting on their front steps. As we approached, they began to scream at each other in resentment. We turned to walk away, when the guy screamed, "WHAT?" Trapped, I bore witness to the Gospel of grace, and to my dismay, the hearts of both melted and they expressed a desire to commit their lives to Christ! Just as I was about to lead them in the sinner's prayer, my partner (whom I didn't know) noticed a cigarette dangling from the guy's fingers and asked, "Did you ever ask the Lord to give you the victory over that cigarette?" That led to a heated argument about smoking and any chance of leading them to Christ was lost. I was appalled and my partner sensed it; and we never partnered again.

I was then paired with Ken, a godly man (age 35) who always seemed to be on his knees during his spare time. He used a standard presentation of Campus Crusade's "4 Spiritual Laws." I disliked his wooden presentation and failure to listen, but my objections were soon muted, when I was absolutely blown away by how effective Ken's witness was. He led many to Christ. Once he stopped a guy in a Safeway parking lot, with both arms loaded with grocery bags. I urged Ken to at least let the guy get to his car, but no, Ken witnessed to him, despite his loaded arms! The guy was transfixed by Ken's witness anyway! The lesson I learned from these experiences is that style and salesmanship don't matter; what matters is how prayed up you are when you engage in street witnessing. Despite his tactical blunders, most people seemed to sense Ken's uniquely intimate connection with God, and so, they were transfixed by what he said.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't see why the truncated quote is needed if the ultimate point is that JS is wrong in suggesting that constant repentance is not pleasing to God (and he is). If that's the point, then why not say that, even if it doesn't necessarily fit on a t-shirt?

There's so much wrong with Mormonism, there really isn't any need to make it seem worse than it already is.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I don't see why the truncated quote is needed if the ultimate point is that JS is wrong in suggesting that constant repentance is not pleasing to God (and he is). If that's the point, then why not say that, even if it doesn't necessarily fit on a t-shirt?

There's so much wrong with Mormonism, there really isn't any need to make it seem worse than it already is.

Come on that was not what he was saying at all, I think we laid it out pretty clearly, are you now lying to yourself? Do you want so badly that everything that came out of Joseph's mouth to be wrong that you can't see the truth?

 

[dzheremi]

I took that from your post (#11), where you clarified that Joseph Smith actually said "Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God."

That's still saying that daily repentance is not pleasing in the sight of God. And that's wrong.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I took that from your post (#11), where you clarified that Joseph Smith actually said "Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God."

That's still saying that daily repentance is not pleasing in the sight of God. And that's wrong.

Daily repentance of the same sin over and over again is wrong.

There is a problem with the quote in that it is one line take out of Wilford Woodruff's journal as he summarized a talk given by Joseph. So what he said before and what he said after is unknown. All we can do is look at other quotes on repentance.

another talk;
"Let this, then, prove as a warning to all not to procrastinate repentance, or wait till a death-bed, for it is the will of God that man should repent and serve Him in health, and in the strength and power of his mind, in order to secure His blessing, and not wait until he is called to die.”

He wrote to Harvey Whitlock;
“Thus you see, my dear brother, the willingness of our heavenly Father to forgive sins, and restore to favor all those who are willing to humble themselves before Him, and confess their sins, and forsake them, and return to Him with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy, to serve Him to the end"

another talk;
"If you wish to go where God is, you must be like God, or possess the principles which God possesses, for if we are not drawing towards God in principle, we are going from Him and drawing towards the devil. ...Search your hearts, and see if you are like God. I have searched mine, and feel to repent of all my sins.

A revelation given to Peter Whitmer
...And now, behold, I say unto you, that the thing which will be of the most worth unto you will be to declare repentance unto this people, that you may bring souls unto me, that you may rest with them in the kingdom of my Father. Amen. D&C 16

D&C 19
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest Ismite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook andfinished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest Ihumble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

So Joseph really did teach us that we need to repent.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's interesting that this mormon in the video lacks the same kind of normal logic and reasoning that the mormons on this forum lack. He is incredulous at the idea that "gift" would actually mean "gift". He is arguing, like the mormons on here, that "gift" means something that must be earned. And, like those on here, he gets angry and derides the Christian and nonstop accuses the Christian of telling him what he thinks (i.e. pointing out what the mormon religion officially teaches). They get so angry at that because it is the most damning evidence against them.

That's a good observation. I agree, it's not just chance that this happens. It is part of their religion to despise us.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't understand why a person whom believes he has the Truth would choose to advertise it by wearing a shirt which 1) contradicts his theology, 2) uses a doctored quote, and 3) is intended to flame even before a conservation starts.

Why would a minister whom believes he has the Truth not instead just portray Truth? That I do not understand.

And we do not understand why if Mormonism has the Truth, why Mormonism doesn't stand proud on the Truth.

One would think you would look closer and think about what the shirt is saying. That is the logic that we deal with

 

[Jane_Doe]

One would think you would look closer and think about what the shirt is saying. That is the logic that we deal with

This comment does not make sense. The "logic" on the shirt is nothing more than a fabricated lie created by the shirt maker and endorsed by this minister.

Is that what you are tired of dealing with?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I don't see why the truncated quote is needed if the ultimate point is that JS is wrong in suggesting that constant repentance is not pleasing to God (and he is). If that's the point, then why not say that, even if it doesn't necessarily fit on a t-shirt?

There's so much wrong with Mormonism, there really isn't any need to make it seem worse than it already is.

I agree with you. I don't like the approach because it appears as if he is trying to twist it even though he is not twisting it. It's trying to use shock to grab attention and I think it's unnecessary, even though the message is not wrong.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Daily repentance of the same sin over and over again is wrong.

That's not true. It can be true in some cases but it is not true the way you and JS state it. It is never wrong. The continued sin can be an indication that a person's faith is not true but the repentance is the right thing to do. Some people struggle with sin, even certain specific sins, for longer than others. God knows the heart and a person usually knows his or her own heart. In any case, however, the key is to stop the sin but never to stop the repentance.

There is a problem with the quote in that it is one line take out of Wilford Woodruff's journal as he summarized a talk given by Joseph. So what he said before and what he said after is unknown. All we can do is look at other quotes on repentance.

another talk;
"Let this, then, prove as a warning to all not to procrastinate repentance, or wait till a death-bed, for it is the will of God that man should repent and serve Him in health, and in the strength and power of his mind, in order to secure His blessing, and not wait until he is called to die.”

He wrote to Harvey Whitlock;
“Thus you see, my dear brother, the willingness of our heavenly Father to forgive sins, and restore to favor all those who are willing to humble themselves before Him, and confess their sins, and forsake them, and return to Him with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy, to serve Him to the end"

another talk;
"If you wish to go where God is, you must be like God, or possess the principles which God possesses, for if we are not drawing towards God in principle, we are going from Him and drawing towards the devil. ...Search your hearts, and see if you are like God. I have searched mine, and feel to repent of all my sins.

A revelation given to Peter Whitmer
...And now, behold, I say unto you, that the thing which will be of the most worth unto you will be to declare repentance unto this people, that you may bring souls unto me, that you may rest with them in the kingdom of my Father. Amen. D&C 16

D&C 19
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest Ismite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook andfinished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest Ihumble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

So Joseph really did teach us that we need to repent.

None of this really fixes what JS said in the quote on the man's t-shirt. That quote cannot be explained away even with whatever else JS said. It's wrong in any context.

 

[withwonderingawe]

That's not true. It can be true in some cases but it is not true the way you and JS state it. It is never wrong. The continued sin can be an indication that a person's faith is not true but the repentance is the right thing to do. Some people struggle with sin, even certain specific sins, for longer than others. God knows the heart and a person usually knows his or her own heart. In any case, however, the key is to stop the sin but never to stop the repentance.


None of this really fixes what JS said in the quote on the man's t-shirt. That quote cannot be explained away even with whatever else JS said. It's wrong in any context.

You are refusing to understand Joseph's point about trifling with repentance,
to Trifle means to make "something that has little or no importance, significance, or value"

“Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.”

If you sin the same sin everyday and then say I'm sorry every night to turn around and do it the next day then you are trifling with repentance. This is not pleasing to God, why is that so hard for you to comprehend? The whole idea of repentance is to change your life, if you are not doing that then you are trifling (making of no importance) with God's grace and mercy.

 

[Ironhold]

I agree with you. I don't like the approach because it appears as if he is trying to twist it even though he is not twisting it. It's trying to use shock to grab attention and I think it's unnecessary, even though the message is not wrong.

"Shock" and "twisting" is what the anti-Mormon movement's all about.

These people claim to have "truth", yet cannot present it without lying to people in the process.

That's why we're so disgusted with so many people who wish to challenge the church: they boast about how they're "Good Christians" yet go out of their way to not reflect the light of Christ.