Real Conservatism

Clizby WampusCat

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Here in the US we tend to lump republicans and conservatives in the same group. I consider myself a conservative but not a republican. My overall philosophy of conservatism can be summed up as "Allowing maximum freedom while protecting everyone's rights".

Ideally in my opinion a conservative based government should have these characteristics:
Some form of representative government where people vote for leaders and policies.
Government has no preferred religion.
Government has no media outlet of their own.
Some form of court system that impartially decides disputes based on the law and enacted rights.
Should be able to tax the people but only to provide for protection from other countries/organizations and to protect and provide for the citizens rights.
Taxes should be billed not automatically taken from someone's paycheck.
Environmental policy where it balances citizens rights and environmental issues.
Should have a basic healthcare system that is voluntary and provides healthcare for everyone if they want to join.
Term limits for all offices.

Rights are agreed upon by the people who control the government in some representative way. Freedoms and Rights are not absolute. Freedom and rights can be practiced until it is in conflict with another persons freedoms or rights.

Proposed rights are (in no particular order):
Right to life.
Right to practice any religion.
Right to move freely throughout the country without explanation.
Right to protect yourself from harm as well as own weapons to do so.
Right to a trial and due process.
Right to address accusers in person.
Right to fair punishments for crimes.
Right to not be executed or aborted for any reason (right to life)
Right to marry anyone you desire.
Right to a lawyer.
Right to privacy.
Right to free speech.
Right to basic healthcare.
Right to basic clothing housing and food.
Right to own property and possessions without government taking it for public or its own use.
Right to unauthorized searches and seizures.
Right to basic education.
Right to affordable higher education.

This is not meant as an exhaustive list of how a conservative government should be run or what rights we should have. There may even be contradictory things here. It is meant for discussion. Again my overall philosophy of conservatism is to maximize freedom while protecting everyone's rights.
 

Andrewn

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Here in the US we tend to lump republicans and conservatives in the same group. I consider myself a conservative but not a republican.
You haven't explained how the Republican Party contradicts your definition of conservatism.
 
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Speedwell

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You haven't explained how the Republican Party contradicts your definition of conservatism.
A number of items on that list are Democratic policy goals and are denounced as evil atheistic socialism by Republicans.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You haven't explained how the Republican Party contradicts your definition of conservatism.
That was not the point of the post. But generally republicans are not fiscally responsible, have voted to increase government for the last 30 years, have voted against LGBTQ rights, are against basic healthcare as a right for starters.
 
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Andrewn

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But generally republicans are not fiscally responsible, have voted to increase government for the last 30 years, have voted against LGBTQ rights, are against basic healthcare as a right for starters.
Would you consider your views Libertarian?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Would you consider your views Libertarian?
No. We have a lot in common but libertarians don't protect people rights as much in my opinion. They certainly are not for healthcare as a right and they are generally pro choice.
 
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All Englands Skies

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Here in the US we tend to lump republicans and conservatives in the same group. I consider myself a conservative but not a republican. My overall philosophy of conservatism can be summed up as "Allowing maximum freedom while protecting everyone's rights".

Ideally in my opinion a conservative based government should have these characteristics:
Some form of representative government where people vote for leaders and policies.
Government has no preferred religion.
Government has no media outlet of their own.
Some form of court system that impartially decides disputes based on the law and enacted rights.
Should be able to tax the people but only to provide for protection from other countries/organizations and to protect and provide for the citizens rights.
Taxes should be billed not automatically taken from someone's paycheck.
Environmental policy where it balances citizens rights and environmental issues.
Should have a basic healthcare system that is voluntary and provides healthcare for everyone if they want to join.
Term limits for all offices.

Rights are agreed upon by the people who control the government in some representative way. Freedoms and Rights are not absolute. Freedom and rights can be practiced until it is in conflict with another persons freedoms or rights.

Proposed rights are (in no particular order):
Right to life.
Right to practice any religion.
Right to move freely throughout the country without explanation.
Right to protect yourself from harm as well as own weapons to do so.
Right to a trial and due process.
Right to address accusers in person.
Right to fair punishments for crimes.
Right to not be executed or aborted for any reason (right to life)
Right to marry anyone you desire.
Right to a lawyer.
Right to privacy.
Right to free speech.
Right to basic healthcare.
Right to basic clothing housing and food.
Right to own property and possessions without government taking it for public or its own use.
Right to unauthorized searches and seizures.
Right to basic education.
Right to affordable higher education.

This is not meant as an exhaustive list of how a conservative government should be run or what rights we should have. There may even be contradictory things here. It is meant for discussion. Again my overall philosophy of conservatism is to maximize freedom while protecting everyone's rights.

That list of rights more or less matches up to the current brand of "Social Democracy"*** (not to be confused with Democratic Socialism, though, there is an historic overlap in many cases)

*** I am aware that even this term is subjective and there is different versions, every political term/label is.
 
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Albion

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Here in the US we tend to lump republicans and conservatives in the same group.
Generally speaking, that's true, and understandably so. But it's not iron-clad.

I consider myself a conservative but not a republican. My overall philosophy of conservatism can be summed up as "Allowing maximum freedom while protecting everyone's rights".
The reason that there is the correlation of Conservative with Republican is because there are only two viable political parties and most Republicans consider the opposition party to be dominated by Socialists.

So, when "push comes to shove," most Conservatives feel they have few options.

They often complain that the Republican Party doesn't really have the commitment to conservative principles that it claims, however. But again, the alternative is so much worse.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That list of rights more or less matches up to the current brand of "Social Democracy"*** (not to be confused with Democratic Socialism, though, there is an historic overlap in many cases)

*** I am aware that even this term is subjective and there is different versions, every political term/label is.
I will look in to social democracy.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Generally speaking, that's true, and understandably so. But it's not iron-clad.


The reason that there is the correlation of Conservative with Republican is because there are only two viable political parties and most Republicans consider the opposition party to be dominated by Socialists.

So, when "push comes to shove," most Conservatives feel they have few options.

They often complain that the Republican Party doesn't really have the commitment to conservative principles that it claims, however. But again, the alternative is so much worse.
Yes, conservatives do vote for republicans, but I don't think they are synonymous. The republicans that have been in office over the last 20 years are not fiscally conservative nor a friend to LGBT+ people. But in my opinion, the policies of the current democrat party are insane.
 
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Albion

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Yes, conservatives do vote for republicans, but I don't think they are synonymous.
You're right. They are not. But to the extent that they tend most often to overlap or cooperate, it's as I said--there is not much of an alternative.

The republicans that have been in office over the last 20 years are not fiscally conservative nor a friend to LGBT+ people. But in my opinion, the policies of the current democrat party are insane.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That list of rights more or less matches up to the current brand of "Social Democracy"*** (not to be confused with Democratic Socialism, though, there is an historic overlap in many cases)

*** I am aware that even this term is subjective and there is different versions, every political term/label is.
Reading on social democracy I am not too inclined to identify with it. I am not as liberal as what I am reading. I am not for free healthcare for all or free college education for all as I am reading social democrats are. I am for limited gov. healthcare system so everyone has available healthcare if you cannot afford it. If you can afford it you should pay for it. Also, I am for higher ed help for people that cannot afford it that do not leave people with debt when they leave college. If you can afford it then you should pay for it.
 
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Albion

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Reading on social democracy I am not too inclined to identify with it.
:oldthumbsup:

I am not as liberal as what I am reading.
I didn't think so.

I am not for free healthcare for all or free college education for all as I am reading social democrats are. I am for limited gov. healthcare system so everyone has available healthcare if you cannot afford it. If you can afford it you should pay for it. Also, I am for higher ed help for people that cannot afford it that do not leave people with debt when they leave college. If you can afford it then you should pay for it.
 
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All Englands Skies

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Reading on social democracy I am not too inclined to identify with it. I am not as liberal as what I am reading. I am not for free healthcare for all or free college education for all as I am reading social democrats are. I am for limited gov. healthcare system so everyone has available healthcare if you cannot afford it. If you can afford it you should pay for it. Also, I am for higher ed help for people that cannot afford it that do not leave people with debt when they leave college. If you can afford it then you should pay for it.

Those are actually the more "Socialistic" aspects of Social Democracy, not the "Liberal" aspects.

What you call "Conservatism", was, 200 years ago, pretty much what was defined as "Liberalism", which was based on individual rights, free markets and property rights.

As for "Socialism" when it first came around, though it incorporated many aspects of Liberalism and many Socialists started out as Liberals, was in fact reaction to both the Liberalism and the Conservatism of the time. Back then Liberals were Individual rights, free market Capitalists and independent property rights, Conservatives of the time were usually Royalists, hereditary rights, land rights based on hereditary rights and lineage, divine rights, strict social structure and lack of individual rights. Than came Socialism, which was about collective rights, every member of society makes society, that every member of society has a duty to the civic good of society rather than individual rights, which are deemed selfish.
 
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Andrewn

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What you call "Conservatism", was, 200 years ago, pretty much what was defined as "Liberalism", which was based on individual rights, free markets and property rights. . . . Back then Liberals were Individual rights, free market Capitalists and independent property rights,
Yes, this is why the main ideology of Conservative parties in Europe, Canada, and Australia is called "Liberal Conservatism." This, also, used to be the main ideology of the Republican party of the US until Trump.

Conservatives of the time were usually Royalists, hereditary rights, land rights based on hereditary rights and lineage, divine rights, strict social structure and lack of individual rights.
This is called "Aristocratic Conservatism." It was never a major force in the US.

Than came Socialism, which was about collective rights, every member of society makes society, that every member of society has a duty to the civic good of society rather than individual rights, which are deemed selfish.
Socialism is the extreme left. There are many shades between Liberal Conservatism and Socialism: there is "Social Liberalism" and "Social Democracy" (which you alluded to). The latter is espoused by Labor parties around the world and by the left-wing of the Democratic Party of the US (the main ideology is "Social Liberalism").
 
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Speedwell

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Yes, this is why the main ideology of Conservative parties in Europe, Canada, and Australia is called "Liberal Conservatism." This, also, used to be the main ideology of the Republican party of the US until Trump.
It's not entirely fair to blame Trump for it. The crypto-religious populism which has corrupted the Republican party actually began with the "Southern Strategy" in the Nixon years, a ploy to bring conservative white Evangelicals--Southern Democrats--into the Republican party.
 
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Andrewn

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It's not entirely fair to blame Trump for it. The crypto-religious populism which has corrupted the Republican party actually began with the "Southern Strategy" in the Nixon years, a ploy to bring conservative white Evangelicals--Southern Democrats--into the Republican party.
You make a good point.

The way I see it is that the populism that started as "social conservatism" as you described above, matured under Trump into full-fledged "national conservatism" with the characteristic protectionism, anti-globalization, anti-immigration, anti-Islam, etc. I think he took the party from the center-right to the far-right.

The question is, will the party revert back to normal after Trump?
 
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