Real analogies of Substitutionary Atonement.

[bling]

They are forgiven because of the payment of the penalty for our sin, on the cross by his divine Son.

If my sins were paid 100% there is nothing to forgive, yet we know God forgave us 100%. When your ticket is paid the court is not forgiving you.
Do you feel God lacks the ability (Love) to forgive you without Christ having to go to the cross?

Actually, I rejoice in my salvation (1Pe 1:8-9; Ps 28:7).

Is being crucified with Christ a fun experience for you?

At the cross the greatest Love possible is being seen which we can rejoice over, but there is also the worst thing that could ever be see there also, so do you rejoice over what you are mentally seeing on the cross?

 

[Paulomycin]

Was God injust in not overthrowing Nineveh in 40 days due to their wickedness as He said but rather God repented showing Nineveh mercy?

How I'm reading this: "Was God not just in not overthrowing Nineveh in 40 days due to their not repenting, as He said but rather God repented [of? from?] showing Nineveh mercy?"

I'd like to ask for clarification, but worried your response will be even more confusing.

 

[Paulomycin]

Matthew 18:22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.” Is that willy-nilly?

Is Peter God? <-- v.21.

God is our Father (Parent) and parents forgive their repentant children all the time for rebellious disobedience, which is a good example for us.

So you're arguing that Jesus' death was not required for forgiveness.

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

 

[bling]

Is Peter God? <-- v.21.



So you're arguing that Jesus' death was not required for forgiveness.

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

Peter is not God.
Right God does not nee Jesus to die in order to forgive people. I need Jesus to die to help me fulfill my earthly objective.
When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, or something else. NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as a literal ransom payment?

Would the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God describe a kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?

Some think, if I do something, I am saving myself, but a criminal (very unrighteous) person can accept an undeserving ransom payment without doing anything worthy, righteous, honorable or noble.

 

[Butterball1]

How I'm reading this: "Was God not just in not overthrowing Nineveh in 40 days due to their not repenting, as He said but rather God repented [of? from?] showing Nineveh mercy?"

I'd like to ask for clarification, but worried your response will be even more confusing.

Post #17 you posted (my emp) "If God forgives sin willy-nilly; "carte-blanche," without the sin actually being punished, then God would be guilty of an act of injustice."

I simply asked is God guilty of being unjust since He did not punish Nineveh for their wickedness but rather showed them mercy?

 

[Paulomycin]

Right God does not nee Jesus to die in order to forgive people.

Wow. Your new gospel is finally becoming. . .

I need Jesus to die to help me fulfill my earthly objective.[/qutoe]

. . .becoming very clear now.

 

[Paulomycin]

I simply asked is God guilty of being unjust since He did not punish Nineveh for their wickedness but rather showed them mercy?

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. I'm deferring to Hebrews 11:13-16. OT saints were saved on that side of the cross. We are saved on this side of the cross.

 

[bling]

Wow. Your new gospel is finally becoming. . .

Where are you finding God's weakness and thus not being able to forgive people with the power God has, without having Christ going to the cross?

 

[Paulomycin]

Where are you finding God's weakness and thus not being able to forgive people with the power God has, without having Christ going to the cross?

I have literally heard atheists making this ^ exact same argument.

Sin must be paid for. <-- God's consistency is at stake.

If God sets up a rule, "If you disobey, then thou shalt surely die," then He would be cheating if He broke it.

Ezekiel 18:4 - "The soul who sins shall die."

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death,"

You're either minimizing the role of the Lamb of God and/or denying it altogether.

Your god is guilty of injustice.

I don't recognize your god.

 

[bling]

I have literally heard atheists making this ^ exact same argument.

Sin must be paid for. <-- God's consistency is at stake.

If God sets up a rule, "If you disobey, then thou shalt surely die," then He would be cheating if He broke it.

Ezekiel 18:4 - "The soul who sins shall die."

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death,"

You're either minimizing the role of the Lamb of God and/or denying it altogether.

Your god is guilty of injustice.

I don't recognize your god.

Yes, Muslims were the first to bring this up to me and I had to agree with their logic since it is very logical, but that does not mean Christ did not go to the cross because of you and for your benefit.

Sin results in death and we all physically die and spiritual die because of sin. We do not all die a second death, but Jesus did not die the second death for us.

So, all elect and non-elect die physically and spiritually, since that is the rule. What we want to do is avoid the second death by being forgiven of our sins.

My God is totally just and it would be totally unjust to have the innocent tortured, humiliated and murdered to allow the guilty to go free. If the guilt is a child of God willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity those children can be justly Lovingly disciplined and not punished, for all the benefits disciplining provides.

 

[Clare73]

If my sins were paid 100% there is nothing to forgive, yet we know God forgave us 100%.
your ticket is paid the court is not forgiving you.

Actually, it is doing just that. . .forgive is "to cancel a debt,". . ."forgive" is an accounting term.

Do you feel God lacks the ability (Love) to forgive you without Christ having to go to the cross?

God's Court is every bit as just as are our courts.
Justice requires payment. . .and God is just

Is being crucified with Christ a fun experience for you?

Is is supposed to be?

At the cross the greatest Love possible is being seen which we can rejoice over, but there is also the worst thing that could ever be see there also, so do you rejoice over what you are mentally seeing on the cross?

I rejoice in its results, as the NT demonstrates.

I dunno'. . .if someone really sacrificed to buy me a gift, and my response was sadness at what it cost them, I'm thinking that is not the response they had in mind and would much more appreciate my joy and gratitude instead. . .just sayin'.

 

[bling]

Actually, it is doing just that. . .forgive is "to cancel a debt,". . ."forgive" is an accounting term.

Yes, you can forgive a debt and that can happen with the court allowing debt forgiveness, but if the court/company/individual forgives your debt, there is nothing for you to pay. If you pay the debt the court, company or individual did not forgive the debt but stamps the bill, ticket or IOU paid in full which does not mean they forgave the debt. Next time someone pays you back in full tell them, I have forgiven you your debt and see what they say.

There is a huge tax implication between a debt forgiven and a debt you paid in full. The amount of the forgiven debt is taxable as income for the debtor.

God's Court is every bit as just as are our courts.
Justice requires payment. . .and God is just

Justice requires the disobedient to be punished or disciplined and not just anyone to be punished or disciplined. If a debt is forgiven no payment of the debt can be made, since there no longer a debt to pay.

Justice requires the payment of the debt or the debt to be forgiven and never both.

Was the ruler in Matt. 18 wrong since he forgave an unbelievable huge debt without requiring any payment, by anyone.

Is is supposed to be?
I rejoice in its results, as the NT demonstrates.

To be like Paul we are to be crucified with Christ so is that suppose to be a feel good experience?

I dunno'. . .if someone really sacrificed to buy me a gift, and my response was sadness at what it cost them, I'm thinking that is not the response they had in mind and would much more appreciate my joy and gratitude instead. . .just sayin'.

Suppose the gift was totally undeserved and included the huge sacrifice from the being you offended, of His own innocent son, would you be happy and joyful or more serious and reserved?

Would God want us to know how serious and significant our sins are, because that is one thing we are being taught?

Can we expect the world to treat His followers any better?

Should we experience the same thing those 3000 on Pentecost felt Acts 2:37 and feel a death blow to our hearts or are we better then they were? Why have you not experienced a death blow to your heart after coming to the understanding your sins caused Christ to go to the cross?

 

[Clare73]

Yes, you can forgive a debt and that can happen with the court allowing debt forgiveness, but if the court/company/individual forgives your debt, there is nothing for you to pay.
If you pay the debt the court, company or individual did not forgive the debt but stamps the bill, ticket or IOU paid in full which does not mean they forgave the debt.

In the profession of accounting, to pay the debt, means they "forgive" the debt.

To forgive a debt is to cancel the debt, because of personal payment or some other payment.
If it is a fine due by law, which means it is due the taxpayers via the court, then the taxpayers have paid the debt, since the reduced income for the court will be made up from tax payer funding to the court.
All debts are paid by someone.
If someone owes me, and I cancel the debt without payment, then I have paid the debt and am out the money owed me.

Next time someone pays you back in full tell them, I have forgiven you your debt and see what they say.

There is a huge tax implication between a debt forgiven and a debt you paid in full. The amount of the forgiven debt is taxable as income for the debtor.

Depends where you live, and when you lived there.

Justice requires the disobedient to be punished or disciplined and not just anyone to be punished or disciplined. If a debt is forgiven no payment of the debt can be made, since there no longer a debt to pay.
Justice requires the payment of the debt or the debt to be forgiven.
Was the ruler in Matt. 18 wrong since he forgave an unbelievable huge debt without requiring any payment, by anyone.

To cancel a debt to you without payment, is paying the debt yourself. . .you are out that money owed you.

To be like Paul we are to be crucified with Christ

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin, which is exactly what Paul did.

And dying to sin is probably not a good experience for most.

Suppose the gift was totally undeserved and included the huge sacrifice from the being you offended, of His own innocent son, would you be happy and joyful or more serious and reserved?

I'm assuming the giver did so because it pleased him to do so, and I will be appreciative and grateful for his gift, rather than concerned and doubtful.

I think the Biblical model (1Pe 1:8) is a better model than you offer.
I am not more wise nor more holy than God's word written in 1Pe 1:8.

Would God want us to know how serious and significant our sins are, because that is one thing we are being taught?

Can we expect the world to treat His followers any better?

Should we experience the same thing those 3000 on Pentecost felt Acts 2:37 and feel a death blow to our hearts or are we better then they were? Why have you not experienced a death blow to your heart after coming to the understanding your sins caused Christ to go to the cross?

 

[bling]

In the profession of accounting, to pay the debt, means they "forgive" the debt.

I am not an accountant but I do have an accountant working for me and I did google this idea. Forgiving the debt does occur when the debt is paid in full, debt forgiveness occurs when the debt is not paid in full. If you have some references on this please let me read them.

Going beyond accounting we know forgiveness is totally undeserved charity and if the debt were paid by anyone it would not be totally undeserved charity. If Christ paid our debt then we owe Christ and if Christ forgives us without the need for an innocent sacrifice, then would that not mean Christ’s Love/Forgiveness is greater than God’s?

To forgive a debt is to cancel the debt, because of personal payment or some other payment.
If it is a fine due by law, which means it is due the taxpayers via the court, then the taxpayers have paid the debt, since the reduced income for the court will be made up from tax payer funding to the court.
All debts are paid by someone.

No, that is not true for intangibles. If I cruelly murder your son, you can forgive me, but you did not pay for your son’s death. With God, we have offended the creator of the universe, there is nothing that can restore that offence, that debt is beyond anything or anyone paying and Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder is certainly not going to compensate. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Next time someone pays you back in full tell them, I have forgiven you your debt and see what they say.

If someone owes me, and I cancel the debt without payment, then I have paid the debt and am out the money owed me.
Depends where you live, and when you lived there.
To cancel a debt to you without payment, is paying the debt yourself. . .you are out that money owed you.

Can you find that in scripture, because I cannot?

A criminal who did the crime and does the time is not released with the anyone saying: “He has been forgiven”. If you do the crime and do not do the time then you have to be forgiven or are still needing to be punished.

If Jews committed adultery with other gods, what debt could be paid?

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin, which is exactly what Paul did.

Being crucified is not a fun experience.

I'm assuming the giver did so because it pleased him to do so, and I will be appreciative and grateful for his gift, rather than concerned and doubtful.

We know from Jesus’ Garden pray he certainly did not personally want to give up his blood in such a painful way. God Loving Christ perfectly would mean empathically God personally would have preferred Christ’s blood remain flowing through His veins. God very unique unselfish Love would compel God to allow a willing Christ, with this same Love, to go to the cross to help some humans in their fulfillment of their earthly objective. God was extremely pleased with Christ’s Love for undeserving humans, since that was God’s Love also. God allows or causes: satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds against innocent children, death, hell and even sin, none of which would please God but does help willing individuals in their fulfillment of their earthly objective.
It is a sacrifice so it is not a pleasing experience.

I think the Biblical model (1Pe 1:8) is a better model than you offer.
I am not more wise nor more holy than God's word written in 1Pe 1:8.

1Peter 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

Peter is writing to Christians which Peter just got through saying: 1Pe.1…a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ… here Peter is talking not about the death but the Joy that is ours through the resurrection. 4…inheritance is kept in heaven for you… 5…faith are shielded by God’s power…

Peter is not talking about the joy of Christ’s death.

You did not address this scripture:


we experience the same thing those 3000 on Pentecost felt Acts 2:37 and feel a death blow to our hearts or are we better then they were? Why have you not experienced a death blow to your heart after coming to the understanding your sins caused Christ to go to the cross?

 

[Clare73]

I am not an accountant but I do have an accountant working for me and I did google this idea. Forgiving the debt does occur when the debt is paid in full, debt forgiveness occurs when the debt is not paid in full. If you have some references on this please let me read them.

Try a good dictionary.

To forgive is "to give up the claim," which can be done with or without the debt being paid.

Going beyond accounting we know forgiveness is totally undeserved charity and if the debt were paid by anyone it would not be totally undeserved charity.

It's the totally undeserved charity of the one who paid the debt!

If Christ paid our debt then we owe Christ

Not when if it is a free gift! . . .where do you come up with this stuff?

and if Christ forgives us without the need for an innocent sacrifice, then would that not mean Christ’s Love/Forgiveness is greater than God’s?

And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

No, that is not true for intangibles. If I cruelly murder your son, you can forgive me, but you did not pay for your son’s death.

That's easy to say when it is not your son that was stolen from you and you are out the loss.

With God, we have offended the creator of the universe, there is nothing
that can restore that offence, that debt is beyond anything or anyone paying and
Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder is certainly not going to compensate.

And you know this how?
Newsflash! You don't make the rules, God does.

Two wrongs do not make a right.
Next time someone pays you back in full tell them, I have forgiven you your debt and
see what they say.

And?

Can you find that in scripture, because I cannot?

It's right after the verse on cars and computers.

A criminal who did the crime and does the time is not released with the anyone saying: “He has been forgiven”.

See definition of "forgive" in my first response above.

If you do the crime and do not do the time then you have to be forgiven or are still needing to be punished.
If Jews committed adultery with other gods, what debt could be paid?

You would have to consult God's Law for that.

1Peter 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

Peter is writing to Christians which Peter just got through saying: 1Pe.1…a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ… here Peter is talking not about the death but the Joy that is ours through the resurrection.

Is there resurrection without death? It's all one package over which he rejoices.

4…inheritance is kept in heaven for you… 5…faith are shielded by God’s power…

Peter is not talking about the joy of Christ’s death.

You did not address Acts 2:37.

we experience the same thing those 3000 on Pentecost felt Acts 2:37 and feel a death blow to our hearts or are we better then they were? Why have you not experienced a death blow to your heart after coming to the understanding your sins caused Christ to go to the cross?

Why have you not stopped robbing stores?

 

[bling]

Try a good dictionary.

To forgive is "to give up the claim," which can be done with or without the debt being paid.

It's the totally undeserved charity of the one who paid the debt!

Not when if it is a free gift! . . .where do you come up with this stuff?

And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
That's easy to say when it is not your son that was stolen from you and you are out the loss.
And you know this how?
Newsflash! You don't make the rules, God does.
And?
It's right after the verse on cars and computers.
See definition of "forgive" in my first response above.

You would have to consult God's Law for that.

Is there resurrection without death? It's all one package over which he rejoices.
Previously addressed. . .more than once.

1. Can you find this accounting forgiveness definition on the internet and reference it, since yours is not there?

2. Help me out here: You seem to be saying: Jesus forgives us 100%, as a free gift, of 100% of the debt we owed God without any payment, yet God needs payment making Jesus’ forgiveness greater?

3. I did not understand your answer to forgiveness of a crime/sin like: rape or murder being paid by someone else, since there is no way to restore what was lost?

4. What are you trying to tell me with: “That's easy to say when it is not your son that was stolen from you and you are out the loss.”? Who is the kidnapper?

5. Scripture does tell us what is just and unjust and Jesus’ life is 100% consistent with God in heaven coming to earth. By the Bible’s description it would never be “just” to see to the torture, humiliate and murder the innocent to allow the guilty to go free even if the innocent was OK with it. You just do not find that in scripture and we find lots about taking advantage of the innocent and seeing to the discipline or punishment of the guilty. So where are you finding in scripture this idea of justly: torturing, humiliating and murdering the innocent?

6. You ask: “Is there resurrection without death?” The thing is we are talking about the atonement sacrifice and not the resurrection. The resurrection needed only a death and not the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent, so are you saying the resurrection needed this cruelty?

7. You still did not address when/how/if you personally experienced a death blow to your heart over what You caused Christ to go through?

 

[Clare73]

1.Can you find this accounting forgiveness definition on the internet and reference it, since yours is not there?

This is the best I can do.

Forgive | Definition of Forgive by Merriam-Webster
Definition of FORGIVE
Definition of forgive. transitive verb. 1 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon forgive one's enemies. 2 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see requital sense 1) for forgive an insult. b : to grant relief from payment of forgive a debt. intransitive verb.

2. Help me out here: You seem to be saying: Jesus forgives us 100%, as a free gift, of 100% of the debt we owed God without any payment, yet God needs payment making Jesus’ forgiveness greater?

It is not Jesus who forgives us, it is God who forgives us because Jesus has paid our debt to God's justice.

3. I did not understand your answer to forgiveness of a crime/sin like: rape or murder being paid by someone else, since there is no way to restore what was lost?

Sin is spiritual, and all sin is first against God, which penalty for sin against God is paid for by Jesus' atoning work on the cross.

In the natural order, the consequences of rape and murder are determined by our laws.

4. What are you trying to tell me with: “That's easy to say when it is not your son that was stolen from you and you are out the loss.”? Who is the kidnapper?

To pay a debt reduces your "holdings." You had $200, you paid the $50 debt, now you have only $150.

To be robbed is to reduce your "holdings." You had $200, the robber stole $50, now you have only $150.

To be robbed reduces your "holdings" just as payment of your debt reduces your "holdings."

Therefore, if my holdings of $200 have been reduced by $50 by the robber who never pays me back, it's the same financial outcome to me as if my holdings of $200 are reduced by my paying my own debt.

I am, in effect/outcome, paying (myself for) the robber's debt, and am out $50.
In effect, I am the one who pays any debt owed me that I cancel (give up my claim) without being paid to me.

I pay for my son's death in the loss of him, my treasure being stolen (my "holdings" reduced). . .the same as my "holdings" being reduced by the robber and, therefore, I am the one who pays for that debt owed me that will not be repaid.

5. Scripture does tell us what is just

And by that some token Scripture tells us that God is just, that everything he does is just and good.

and unjust and Jesus’ life is 100% consistent with God in heaven coming to earth. By the Bible’s description it would never be “just” to see to the torture, humiliate and murder the innocent to allow the guilty to go free even if the innocent was OK with it. You just do not find that in scripture and we find lots about taking advantage of the innocent and seeing to the discipline or punishment of the guilty. So where are you finding in scripture this idea of justly: torturing, humiliating and murdering the innocent?

6. You ask: “Is there resurrection without death?” The thing is we are talking about the atonement sacrifice and not the resurrection. The resurrection needed only a death and not the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent, so are you saying the resurrection needed this crueltY

Regarding your attempt to overthrow the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, I suggest you take a deep dive into Isaiah 55:8-9 regarding your thinking and God's thinking, and whose is higher.

7.You still did not address when/how/if you personally experienced a death blow to your heart over what You caused Christ to go through?

When did you stop beating children?

 

[bling]

This is the best I can do.

Forgive | Definition of Forgive by Merriam-Webster
Definition of FORGIVE
Definition of forgive. transitive verb. 1 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon forgive one's enemies. 2 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see requital sense 1) for forgive an insult. b : to grant relief from payment of forgive a debt. intransitive verb.
It is not Jesus who forgives us, it is God who forgives us because Jesus has paid our debt to God's justice.

Those are definitions I am using and can work with. 2.b means if you forgive the debt there is no payment made.

Forgiving the debt is to opposite of paying the debt, so it is not doing both, it is either/or.

Sin is spiritual, and all sin is first against God, which penalty for sin against God is paid for by Jesus' atoning work on the cross.

In the natural order, the consequences of rape and murder are determined by our laws.
To pay a debt reduces your "holdings." You had $200, you paid the $50 debt, now you have only $150.

To be robbed is to reduce your "holdings." You had $200, the robber stole $50, now you have only $150.

To be robbed reduces your "holdings" just as payment of your debt reduces your "holdings."

Therefore, if my holdings of $200 have been reduced by $50 by the robber who never pays me back, it's the same financial outcome to me as if my holdings of $200 are reduced by my paying my own debt.

I am, in effect/outcome, paying (myself for) the robber's debt, and am out $50.
In effect, I am the one who pays any debt owed me that I cancel (give up my claim) without being paid to me.

In the natural order, the consequences of rape and murder are determined by our laws.

This topic was in our discussing of all earthly crimes are “paid” by someone and not just forgiven, so is that true with rape and murder? Sometimes crimes are forgiven even under our laws and never paid for.

I pay for my son's death in the loss of him, my treasure being stolen (my "holdings" reduced). . .the same as my "holdings" being reduced by the robber and, therefore, I am the one who pays for that debt owed me that will not be repaid.And by that some token Scripture tells us that God is just, that everything he does is just and good.

You do not own your son. God allowed your son to be taken and/or killed, which might also be partially your fault. How is God taking your son a debt you pay?
You did not address:
5. Scripture does tell us what is just

And by that some token Scripture tells us that God is just, that everything he does is just and good.

and unjust and Jesus’ life is 100% consistent with God in heaven coming to earth. By the Bible’s description it would never be “just” to see to the torture, humiliate and murder the innocent to allow the guilty to go free even if the innocent was OK with it. You just do not find that in scripture and we find lots about taking advantage of the innocent and seeing to the discipline or punishment of the guilty. So where are you finding in scripture this idea of justly: torturing, humiliating and murdering the innocent?

Regarding your attempt to overthrow the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, I suggest you take a deep dive into Isaiah 55:8-9 regarding your thinking and God's thinking, and whose is higher.

Jesus is the atonement sacrifice!!! The issue is with the whole atonement process which is more then just the atonement sacrifice. You might look at Lev. 5 for at least it goes through the full process for really minor sins, unintentional sins.

When did you stop abusing children?

That did not address the question, unless you did not?

 

[Paulomycin]

That did not address the question, unless you did not?

Clare73 is indicating that you're using a loaded question fallacy on her. Which is definitely the case here.

Therefore, in all fairness, Clare is doing the same to you in her reply.

A loaded question fallacy happens when one's apparently innocent question comes pre-loaded with a settled conclusion. Example: "Have you ever stopped beating your wife?" No matter what answer you give, you're already feeding the conclusion loaded into the initial question.

Please do me a huge favor and tell me you understand this.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73 is indicating that you're using a loaded question fallacy on her. Which is definitely the case here.

Therefore, in all fairness, Clare is doing the same to you in her reply.

A loaded question fallacy happens when one's apparently innocent question comes pre-loaded with a settled conclusion. Example: "Have you ever stopped beating your wife?" No matter what answer you give, you're already feeding the conclusion loaded into the initial question.

Please do me a huge favor and tell me you understand this.

'Stat ue, Paul, in the avatar?