Real analogies of Substitutionary Atonement.

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,517.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
QUESTION: "Are there any ancient or modern-day laws that can be used as illustrative analogies to the substitutionary atonement?"

Looking only for direct analogies. Please, no brainstorming or spitballing.
No!!!
The idea of a purely innocent person being tortured, humiliated and murdered instead of the guilty person and thus allow the guilty person to go free is totally against the idea of fair/just Lovingly discipline of a guilty child, this would have the repentant guilty child missing out on all the benefit of a loving parent's discipline.
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
No!!!
The idea of a purely innocent person being tortured, humiliated and murdered instead of the guilty person and thus allow the guilty person to go free is totally against the idea of fair/just Lovingly discipline of a guilty child, this would have the repentant guilty child missing out on all the benefit of a loving parent's discipline.

Are you saying you deny the doctrine of substitutionary atonement? :anguished:
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,720.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No!!!
The idea of a purely innocent person being tortured, humiliated and murdered instead of the guilty person
and thus allow the guilty person to go free is totally against the idea of fair/just Lovingly discipline of a guilty child, this would have the repentant guilty child missing out on all the benefit of a loving parent's discipline.
Did God get the memo?

Would you feel the same way if the innocent person were clearing your son of a death penalty?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Butterball1

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2020
688
121
59
Tennessee
✟32,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
QUESTION: "Are there any ancient or modern-day laws that can be used as illustrative analogies to the substitutionary atonement?"

Looking only for direct analogies. Please, no brainstorming or spitballing.

In basketball, player #5 is 'substituted' for player #12 while player #12 sits on the bench doing nothing because player #5 is on the court doing it 'all' for him. From such an idea do faith onlyists get the idea the Jesus did it "all" therefore man has nothing to do in his own salvation.

But there is no Biblical basis for the idea that man is a sinner and deserves punishment before he can be forgiven. Therefore Christ steps in as a 'substitute' whereby man's sins, along with guilt and penalty of those sins, are imputed or transferred to Christ therefore Christ essentially becomes a sinner Himself. Therefore God takes His wrath out upon Christ rather than man.

Problems with this "substitution theory" that I see are:

(1) it seems to make God a slave to His own anger and wrath, that is, God is unable to forgive unless He takes His wrath out upon someone first. But God is able to forgive without having to first take out His wrath just as Christians are able to forgive one another without having to first take wrath out upon one another.

Man's sins are not transferred to Christ, where by Christ essentially becomes a sinner in place of man and God takes His wrath out upon Christ whereby man can be forgiven. Truth is God's wrath is upon sinful man but man is unable to do anything about his sins. So Christ stepped in on behalf, not as a substitute, but on behalf of man shedding his blood that takes away the sins of man. With sins taken away, man is no longer the obeject of God's wrath. Christ paid a ransom for man, He did not become a "substitute sinner" on man's behalf with God taking His wrath out upon Christ.

(2) sin nor righteousness are not transferrable. No such thing as original sin. "Sinner" or "righteous" are not labels unconditionally hung upon men at random separate and apart from the actions men take, separate and apart from how a man lives. Man is not a sinner until he first conditionally transgresses God's law (1 John 3:4). A man is not righteous until he first works God's righteousness, (Acts of the Apostles 10:35).

(3) the Bible teaches man has a role in his own salvation, man is not passive and does not sit idle on the bench. Man's role in salvation is that man must obey Christ to be saved (Hebrews 5:9) and those who obey in that sense "save yourselves" (Acts of the Apostles 2:40) "cleanse ourselves" (2 Corinthinas 7:1) 'you purified your souls' (1 Peter 1:22).

(4) if sin and the guilt and penalty of sin are transferred from man to Christ then man has no sin, he has no consequence, no penalty to pay therefore he is OSAS. Yet the Bible teaches there is a consequence, penalty for sinning. Galatians 5:19-21 anyone, no exceptions, who commits such sins face the penalty, consequence of not entering the kingdom of heaven.
Physical death is a consequence/penalty of sin. Yet if all of man's sins and penalty of those sins have been imputed/transferred to Christ, then why do men still die physically? So Jesus does not take man's place in physical death. Jesus never died spiritually so He does not take man's place in spiritual death either. Suffering is a penalty of sin, yet men still suffer so Christ did not take this penalty of sin away on the cross. I have not been appointed to go to a cross, so how can Christ be a substitute going to the cross for me? Christ did not take away God's wrath from man for God's wrath will still be upon any and all who impenitently sin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PuerAzaelis
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,517.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Did God get the memo?

Would you feel the same way if the innocent person were clearing your son of a death penalty?
Are you telling me: "I should love my son more then I Love Christ?"

Paul should have been under the death penalty for the stone of Steven, but nether Paul nor I would want some innocent person to take his place and be murdered instead of Paul.

There is no way I would feel good about any innocent person taking the place of my guilty son, I might want to take my son's place partly because I feel I am partly to blame for his actions and it would really discipline my son to lose his father because of his actions and thus be a deterrent.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,720.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Are you telling me: "I should love my son more then I Love Christ?"
If Christ is not your Savior by himself paying the penalty for your sin, why would you have faith in him?
Paul should have been under the death penalty for the stone of Steven, but
nether Paul nor I would want some innocent person to take his place and be murdered instead of Paul.
And Paul died for preaching just that about Jesus Christ.

I'm not holier than God that I will be dissing his decision of so precious a gift to me, and at so high a price to him.
There is no way I would feel good about any innocent person taking the place of my guilty son, I might want to take my son's place partly because I feel I am partly to blame for his actions and it would really discipline my son to lose his father because of his actions and thus be a deterrent.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Paulomycin
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,720.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
QUESTION: "Are there any ancient or modern-day laws that can be used as illustrative analogies to the substitutionary atonement?"

Looking only for direct analogies. Please, no brainstorming or spitballing.
You want a human analogy for the divine justice, wisdom and goodness of God's plan of redemption by the atoning sacrifice of Christ?

Really?

I'm anxious to see what it is.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,517.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If Christ is not your Savior by himself paying the penalty for your sin, why would you have faith in him?
First off: God forgave my sins 100% so there is nothing left to pay.

Everything Christ did and said shows His Love for me and he made some wonderful promises that have come true and so I believe the other promises will come true. Christ went to the cross because of my personal sins and for my benefit.


I'm not holier than God that I will be dissing his decision of so precious a gift to me, and at so high a price to him.
Maybe you have a different understanding of the reason God decided to have Christ go to the cross.

Answer me this: When you first realized Christ was tortured, humiliated and murdered on the cross because of your personal sins and to your benefit, did you experience empathetically being crucified with Christ? As your Love grows for Christ does being crucified with Christ hurt all the more?

Is being crucified with Christ not a disciplining activity?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,720.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No!!!
The idea of a purely innocent person being tortured, humiliated and murdered instead of the guilty person

and thus allow the guilty person to go free is totally against the idea of fair/just Lovingly discipline of a guilty child, this would have the repentant guilty child missing out on all the benefit of a loving parent's discipline.
First off: God forgave my sins 100% so there is nothing left to pay.

Everything Christ did and said shows His Love for me and he made some wonderful promises that have come true and so I believe the other promises will come true. Christ went to the cross because of my personal sins and for my benefit.
So which is it?

Christ's death was unfair. . .or Christ went to the cross for your benefit?
Maybe you have a different understanding of the reason God decided to have Christ go to the cross.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,517.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So we are agreed on God's decision to have an innocent (and divine!) person pay the penalty for the guilty.
No. God forgives our sins there is "payment of the penalty", since they have been forgiven. You did not address my questions:
Answer me this: When you first realized Christ was tortured, humiliated and murdered on the cross because of your personal sins and to your benefit, did you experience empathetically being crucified with Christ? As your Love grows for Christ does being crucified with Christ hurt all the more?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
51
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟20,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
No. God forgives our sins there is "payment of the penalty", since they have been forgiven.

If God forgives sin willy-nilly; "carte-blanche," without the sin actually being punished, then God would be guilty of an act of injustice.

This is why Christ died--as a substitute for the one who believes upon Him. Thus, God's justice is satisfied (by the Son), and Man's sins are covered (by the Son). Psalms 32:1
 
Upvote 0

Butterball1

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2020
688
121
59
Tennessee
✟32,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If God forgives sin willy-nilly; "carte-blanche," without the sin actually being punished, then God would be guilty of an act of injustice.

This is why Christ died--as a substitute for the one who believes upon Him. Thus, God's justice is satisfied (by the Son), and Man's sins are covered (by the Son). Psalms 32:1

"Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.".........

"Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."..........

"So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them."

"But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
"

Was God injust in not overthrowing Nineveh in 40 days due to their wickedness as He said but rather God repented showing Nineveh mercy?
God requiring men to repent in order for men to be forgiven and shown mercy is 'willy-nilly', Jeremiah 18:8-10?
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,517.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If God forgives sin willy-nilly; "carte-blanche," without the sin actually being punished, then God would be guilty of an act of injustice.

This is why Christ died--as a substitute for the one who believes upon Him. Thus, God's justice is satisfied (by the Son), and Man's sins are covered (by the Son). Psalms 32:1
Matthew 18:22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.” Is that willy-nilly?

God is our Father (Parent) and parents forgive their repentant children all the time for rebellious disobedience, which is a good example for us. Punishment is not needed, but as wonderful Loving parents we do need to see to fair/just discipline of the repentant child if at all possible which is never punishment.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,720.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No. God forgives our sins there is "payment of the penalty", since they have been forgiven.
They are forgiven because of the payment of the penalty for our sin, on the cross by his divine Sn.

So was it a good thing or an unjust thing that Christ paid the penalty for your sin?
You did not address my questions:
Answer me this: When you first realized Christ was tortured, humiliated and murdered on the cross because of your personal sins and to your benefit, did you experience empathetically being crucified with Christ?
As your Love grows for Christ does being crucified with Christ hurt all the more?
Actually, I rejoice in my salvation (1Pe 1:8-9; Ps 28:7).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0