Re-Thinking Hell

[FineLinen]

Why would anyone have any interest in assertions without biblical support?
If there is no support for them then the assertions would be seen as lacking fidelity to the truth.
There is only one way to eternal life. That way is through the cross of Christ. All other paths lead to eternal destruction.
I would posit that those who seek to create a false path to eternal life such as re-thinking hell are really creating for themselves an escape route around the truth of scripture.

There is no such thing as eternal destruction! Aionios destruction, yes, Aidios destruction no. Only our Father ABBA IS AIDIOS.

Dr. Marvin Vincent (olethron aionian)

Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) – Mercy Upon All

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hope that helps.

No, not really:

Essentials of Christianity.

1. Repentance and turning to Christ, through faith.
2. Love for God, and all people, love your neighbor as yourself.
3. Belief in the death and Resurrection of Christ

Non-essentials:

1. Eschatology ( views of hell, end of times views)
2. Baptism Practice ( Sprinkle, Immersion, Infant Baptism etc.)
3. Bible Translations Preferences, Worship Style, Denominational Memberships. Etc.

Not an exhausted list, but just a few.

"In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, charity.”
- Rupertus Meldenius

Eschatology is listed as non-essential.

And since Scripture teaches that Christ is coming back to judge (as mentioned in the Nicene Creed), and the teaching itself shows that the unbelievers (Goats) will go into everlasting punishment, we cannot separate the two.

As I said, the failure of the shepherds of Christ's Day in Eschatological matters resulted in not only their own destruction but the destruction of the people they were supposed to be spiritual leaders over.

It is just a fact that Messianic Prophecy isn't non-essential.

And it is particularly essential when it is taught by Jesus Christ Himself.

And as I have said before, I do not see love for God (when His teaching is negated) or love for neighbor (when their eternal destiny is jeopardized) in universal salvation. Perhaps if what is essential and what is non-essential were better understood by those who embrace universal salvation—we'd see less people preaching No-Hell! and more people preaching Turn-to-Jesus!


God bless.

 

[Receivedgrace]

There is no such thing as eternal destruction! Aionios destruction, yes, Aidios destruction no. Only our Father ABBA IS AIDIOS.

Dr. Marvin Vincent (olethron aionian)

Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) – Mercy Upon All

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[FineLinen]

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Sound doctrine is not the fable of non stop torment by ABBA.

Sound doctrine is not the fable that Father's love and grace has a time limit attached to it!

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Where in my posts did I say "The Belgic Confession of Faith says..." anything?

Nowhere—which you ought to know already, I would think.

Okay, so let's "think" about this: you "think" that because something is in the Beigic Confession of Faith that I should automatically "think" the Belgic Confession of Faith has the truth of all matters? That it is relevant to anything I have said?

You said:

(Emphasis added.)

Where in Scripture does it say this? The Belgic Confession of Faith says the same thing ("The wicked will ... become immortal") and yet, despite having an edition with scriptural proofs, there is none provided for that claim. Do you have one?

Am I supposed to "think" that because you can't find something in an extrabiblical source that it is relevant?

I'm thinking you should probably stop using the Belgic Confession of Faith as a standard of measure for Bible Doctrine.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

You said that the damned “will receive bodies suited to eternal torment.”

That is correct.

Again, it is simply a Basic Bible Doctrine taught in Scripture both explicitly and explicitly.

You say I have given you no support for my view yet you ignored what was given to you so far. You have, by omitting quite a bit that I have said—falsely represented what was given to you to begin with.

And we will look at that, and hopefully you will be able to see this time a few things you overlooked in the first posting.

Let's start here:

Not sure what "edition" it is you speak of that will apparently satisfy your demands, but as far as Scriptural proof goes, we can start here...

Now, if you "think" about what is said here, you might understand that the Scripture given so far was only meant to be a beginning to the discussion.

We will get to that in a little bit. First we have to "think" about the ranting that I "think" was given as a response, but doesn't actually address what was said.

I am breaking this up so that you will not have opportunity to miss a single thing I say this time. You will either respond to each point or you will have to ignore the response altogether.

So let's get started, shall we?

Come, let us "think" together...


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

I have encountered this kind of controversial claim in only one other place, namely, the Belgic Confession of Faith.

I guess you don't get around much?

That the damned will receive everlasting bodies suited to the destruction they receive in Hell is, again, a pretty Basic Bible Doctrine that has been taught since the First Century.

Here is my initial response:

LINK

Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Most familiar with Revelation 20 understand that the "dead" are resurrected before they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

What does that mean?

So I ask you again, what does it mean that the dead are raised to life again? Just to be annihilated in the Lake of Fire? Where do we see that in Scripture?

What we see is that the spirits of the dead are in Hades, and they "lived again" according to Revelation 20:5 after the thousand years are over.

And you have found this nowhere but in the Belgic Confession of Faith?

Please answer the question this time.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Since there are no scriptural proofs in the Confession supporting this particular claim, I was hoping that you might possess what the Confession did not provide …

Maybe if you were interested in the discussion itself you might have received that which this Confession doesn't provide.

Are you interested in having a discussion now?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

… which is what I said:

"Where in Scripture does it say this? The Belgic Confession of Faith says the same thing … and yet, despite having an edition with scriptural proofs, there is none provided for that claim. Do you have one?"

As I said, I have been debating this issue in several threads.

But I am perfectly willing to go through it all over again in this newest thread where universal salvation is promoted.


Continued...

 

[FineLinen]

That the damned will receive everlasting bodies suited to the destruction they receive in Hell is, again, a pretty Basic Bible Doctrine that has been taught since the First Century.

Good grief ! !

 

[P1LGR1M]

But it seems that you likewise don't have any scriptural proofs, just as they did not.

I gave you a Scriptural proof: Revelation 20:11-15 and Revelation 20:5 which shows that the dead, those who do not have the life of Christ and are not part of the kingdom of God—are raised to physical life again.

When the Tribulation Martyrs are raised they are raised in such a way that they live for a thousand years. This suggests that it is at this time that they are glorified.

They are given bodies suited for their eternal destiny.

When the dead are raised a thousand years later it is implicit in the text that they too are raised in bodies suited to their eternal destinies.

And we don't stop there, but as I said—we begin there.

The first thing you should have done is answer my question. So you can decide if you want to talk with me, or at me, it makes no difference to me. I can make this a discussion either way. Quite a bit more enjoyable, though, if it is in fact a discussion. We are wasting a lot of time due to the nature of your response, but, that's okay.

If you want Scriptural presentations that show why the damned are given everlasting bodies, I will give them to you, but it isn't going to be one or two passages. It is going to involve all Scripture that is relevant and necessary to draw sound conclusions.

So answer my question: why are the dead raised to physical life again?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Good grief ! !

No, it isn't grief, it is Everlasting Torment.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That doesn’t surprise me, though. If there were any, I'm pretty sure the Confession would have provided it.

Really?

Well, you can use the Belgic Confession of Faith as your standard and I will use the Bible for mine.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Good grief ! !

If you don't mind me asking, could you tell me which fellowship or denomination it is that you are a part of and whether they teach universal salvation there?

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I don't rely on the works of men to support my own views, only Scripture.

Great, for that's precisely what I asked for: "Where in Scripture does it say this?" I want to know where Scripture says that the damned will receive bodies suited to eternal torment.

It doesn't seem that you do want to know where Scripture says this.

You refused to address the Scripture presented to you as a beginning to the discussion.

You charge me with not presenting Scripture then post the Scripture I began with.

What were you "thinking?"


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[FineLinen]

No, it isn't grief, it is Everlasting Torment.

Search = "everlasting torment".

Your search has yielded no results in the KJV.

NONE

 

[FineLinen]

If you don't mind me asking, could you tell me which fellowship or denomination it is that you are a part of and whether they teach universal salvation there?

The restitution of all things is found in every denomination and fellowship across this wide earth. Many of those who have been immersed into Him in past days proclaim it.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Saying that the lost will have bodies suited to everlasting punishment is simply a Basic Bible Principle that most who study Scripture outside of the lens of a particular System of Theology understand.

If by “principle” you mean an article of faith or a fundamental doctrine or tenet (Dictionary.com, s.v. “Principle”), then you haven't answered my question.

I am surprised, I would think the Belgic Confession of Faith would define what a principle is in a Theological Debate.

I'll give you an example of what kind of principle I mean:


Hebrews 5:10-6:2
King James Version

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6 KJV

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


The same ABCs of the Doctrine of Christ the Writer mentions here.

And it is the mandate for every believer not to lay again the ABCs of the resurrection of the dead and of Eternal Judgment.

Here is a "first principle" of the resurrection of the Dead and of Eternal Judgment:


Daniel 12
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


And here is a more complete teaching:


Matthew 25

King James Version

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


While one might rationalize this to mean annihilation, they must equally conclude that the Eternal Life that everlasting punishment is contrasted with isn't everlasting either.

Who does that?

If you're "thinking," then the answer is—no one.

So the next question I would ask at this point is this: is the "everlasting" of Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 25:46 everlasting or isn't it?

Second question: is it not made clear in Matthew 25 that the foolish virgins and the Goats do not enter into the Kingdom of God?

Third question: is the unprofitable servant annihilated when he is cast into outer darkness?


Matthew 25:30
King James Version

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Most that read this Chapter do not come to a conclusion other than both of the two resurrections Christ teaches are everlasting:


John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Fourth question: why would Eternal Life be everlasting and not damnation when those are the only two resurrections taught by Christ, the Apostles, and the Scriptures as a whole?

Fifth question: Why are the Dead resurrected to physical life before being cast into the Lake of Fire?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

The restitution of all things is found in every denomination and fellowship across this wide earth. Many of those who have been immersed into Him in past days proclaim it.

That's what I thought: you don't go anywhere to fellowship with Christians, do you?

Is that because you cannot find a local assembly that teaches universal salvation?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

ME: Where in Scripture does it say that the damned will receive bodies suited to eternal torment?

YOU: It’s a basic doctrine that most students of Scripture understand.

And?

If you had addressed the Scripture and the points made we would be having a fine discussion right now.

But as I said, we will get to the points already made, and you will either have to respond to them or ignore them. Again, that is why I am breaking this up.


Continued...