Re-Thinking Hell

[Der Alte]

...

God our ABBA moves out of His essence as Saviour in unlimited reach for the world He loves!
the angelic host proclaim.....
NOTHING shall be adynateo.

My oh my pie in the sky. The usual no, zero, none supporting scripture.

 

[wendykvw]

God put a limitation on it. Death (physical death) ends any hope of repentance and salvation. Judgment follows death.
Luther would have known that and I'm confident you are quoting him out of context and it seems to be the foundation of all your teaching. You do not represent sound doctrine. Again a result of what 's in your heart and your training in the progressive educational system.

Your free do to the research and come to your own conclusions.

 

[wendykvw]

"Condemn no man for not thinking as you think. Let every one enjoy the full and free liberty of thinking for himself. Let every man use his own judgment, since every man must give an account of himself to God. Abhor every approach, in any kind or degree, to the spirit of persecution, if you cannot reason nor persuade a man into the truth, never attempt to force a man into it. If love will not compel him to come, leave him to God, the judge of all." ~ John Wesley

 

[P1LGR1M]

(Emphasis added.)

Where in Scripture does it say this? The Belgic Confession of Faith says the same thing ("The wicked will ... become immortal") and yet, despite having an edition with scriptural proofs, there is none provided for that claim. Do you have one?

Where in my posts did I say "The Belgic Confession of Faith says..." anything?

I don't rely on the works of men to support my own views, only Scripture.

Saying that the lost will have bodies suited to everlasting punishment is simply a Basic Bible Principle that most who study Scripture outside of the lens of a particular System of Theology understand. Scripture doesn't say in explicit English words "God is Trinity," but the fact remains that the Trinitarian God is found in Scripture.

If you had read the posts I have done so far in the two threads in which I have debated against universal salvation and annihilation, you would understand that I clarify between everlasting and Eternal. Only believers have Eternal Life because they partake of God's nature when they are baptized into Christ and eternally indwelt by God. This does not make us in ourselves Eternal, because only God is Eternal (properly defined as having no beginning and no end).

All men have a beginning. But no man has an end. In that sense the spirits of all men are everlasting, not eternal, not immortal. Immortal speaks to an impervious nature against death. Kind of hard to impose such a state on those who are dead (meaning, not having the Life of Christ and God).

Not sure what "edition" it is you speak of that will apparently satisfy your demands, but as far as Scriptural proof goes, we can start here...


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Most familiar with Revelation 20 understand that the "dead" are resurrected before they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

What does that mean?


Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Would you like to argue that they, the dead, do not live again when the thousand years are over? See the link.

The word anazaō is also used here...


Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; G326 he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, G326 that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


That their physical bodies are given life doesn't equate to the "dead" having life, being immortal, or having eternal life.

They will exist in Everlasting Punishment in these bodies, and that existence is everlasting as Christ and the Apostles teach, but we do not impose an "immortal" description to those who are dead.

I am pretty much done with this forum for now, but you are welcome to look at what I have posted, and if you have problems with what I have said, perhaps it might encourage me to spend a little more time here.

You would probably be more interested in my view that Regeneration began at Pentecost, not, as it is taught by some, that "God has always regenerated men that they might have faith. And I will say up front that I reject the modern Arminian error that man has an inherent ability in his natural state to understand the spiritual things of God. Those discussions are in the thread "What's wrong with Calvinism."

I'm pretty fair about it: I think both sides are wrong.

@wendykvw made the following claims (all emphases mine):

wendykvw said: ↑

For the Protestants with a Reformed view (Calvinism), everything was finished at Calvary. They believe it takes no effort on our part to become purified.


wendykvw said: ↑
Those of a Reformed view see salvation as determined by God, and not by human will.

wendykvw said: ↑

[Calvinist type] Protestants have a very light view of sin.

And this is relevant to what I said...how?

All of them are demonstrably false. Anyone with access to Reformed confessions and catechisms—which are available on the internet—should not make such obvious errors.

I have made a case that pretty much everything this member teaches is false.

Here's a good one: "Rethinking Hell is like Martin Luther rethinking grace." (Close quote, possibly, but covers the intent of what was said).

Then one could expect that you would post either a retraction of those claims or a defense thereof.

That would go for both of you.

God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

1. Why are you citing Article 16 of the Belgic Confession of Faith? Do you suppose it supports one of your claims? Which one?

2. That is not a link to "the Reformed confessions and catechisms" (plural) but rather one confession of faith. It is one part of the Three Forms of Unity (Dutch Reformed), one of the others being the Heidelberg Catechism. And there are, of course, other Reformed confessions and catechisms, such as the Westminster Standards (Presbyterian) or the Second Helvetic Confession (Swiss Reformed), etc.




Then one could expect that you would post either a retraction of those claims or a defense thereof.

Feel free to share the version you had in mind. There is no conspiracy to misrepresent your faith. If you wish to share your confessions and catechisms by all means do so.

 

[wendykvw]

A survey into belief in eternal hell.

Religious Landscape Study

 

[Der Alte]

A survey into belief in eternal hell.
Religious Landscape Study

The number of people who believe in hell is not necessarily an indication of its existence/nonexistence.

 

[wendykvw]

View attachment 320418

The number of people who believe in hell is not necessarily an indication of its existence/nonexistence.

FYI purposes only.

 

[wendykvw]

Essentials of Christianity.

1. Repentance and turning to Christ, through faith.
2. Love for God, and all people, love your neighbor as yourself.
3. Belief in the death and Resurrection of Christ

Non-essentials:

1. Eschatology ( views of hell, end of times views)
2. Baptism Practice ( Sprinkle, Immersion, Infant Baptism etc.)
3. Bible Translations Preferences, Worship Style, Denominational Memberships. Etc.

Not an exhausted list, but just a few.

"In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, charity.”
- Rupertus Meldenius

 

[Der Alte]

Essentials of Christianity.

1. Repentance and turning to Christ, through faith.
2. Love for God, and all people, love your neighbor as yourself.
3. Belief in the death and Resurrection of Christ

Non-essentials:

1. Eschatology ( views of hell, end of times views)
2. Baptism Practice ( Sprinkle, Immersion, Infant Baptism etc.)
3. Bible Translations Preferences, Worship Style, Denominational Memberships. Etc.

Not an exhausted list, but just a few.
"In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, charity.”
- Rupertus Meldenius

The top three must occur in this life, there is no scriptural provision for any of this to occur after death.

 

[wendykvw]

The top three must occur in this life, there is no scriptural provision for any of this to occur after death.

Physical and Spiritual Death is not an obstacle for God. Raising the dead is not a problem.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Physical and Spiritual Death is not an obstacle for God. Raising the dead is not a problem.

The soul returns to God Who made it. Some inherit eternal life and some eternal destruction.

 

[Der Alte]

Physical and Spiritual Death is not an obstacle for God. Raising the dead is not a problem.

While it is true that, "Physical and Spiritual Death is not an obstacle for God. Raising the dead is not a problem." It is not scriptural to build a doctrine on what one thinks is no problem or obstacle with God. Especially in the absence of specific scripture. For example there is, to my knowledge, no scripture which clearly states that God or Jesus will save anyone after death.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Every time fire is mentioned in scripture does not mean that it is "refiner's fire."

Correct, but the Refiner's Fire is mentioned enough to establish a doctrine. You should know that.

 

[David's Harp]

Correct, but the Refiner's Fire is mentioned enough to establish a doctrine. You should know that.

Does the Refiner's Fire pertain to this life, or the next?

 

[Der Alte]

@David's Harp Vs. 1 is definitely this life.

Correct, but the Refiner's Fire is mentioned enough to establish a doctrine. You should know that.

I just did a word search on refiner's fire. All both verses, and it is abundantly clear that this does not and cannot refer to all mankind in the lake of fire.

Malachi 3:1-4
(1) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. [Mat 11:10-11; Mar 1:2-3; Luk_1:76, ]
(2) But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
(3) And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
(4) Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.​

Ain't nobody, no how making offerings to the Lord in the lake of fire.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Correct, but the Refiner's Fire is mentioned enough to establish a doctrine. You should know that.

Refining the saints is part of sanctification. Never part of redemption.

 

[Lazarus Short]

@David's Harp Vs. 1 is definitely this life.

I just did a word search on refiner's fire.

Pardon me, but there are more words that you could have searched:

fire
firebrand
firebrands
fires
burn
burned
burneth
burning
burnings
burnt
and
probably more.

By the time I finished the word searches for my essay "Godfire," I could not say "just did," for it took considerable time, and again, took me from one end of the KJV to the other.

 

[Der Alte]

Pardon me, but there are more words that you could have searched:
fire
firebrand
firebrands
fires
burn
burned
burneth
burning
burnings
burnt
and
probably more.
By the time I finished the word searches for my essay "Godfire," I could not say "just did," for it took considerable time, and again, took me from one end of the KJV to the other.

And these are all relevant to "refiner's fire" exactly how? Every reference to fire in the Bible is not about "refiner's fire?" And as I said the only 2 references are for the nation Israel in this life, not all mankind in the LOF. It ain't rubber you can't make it stretch that far.

 

[wendykvw]

The soul returns to God Who made it. Some inherit eternal life and some eternal destruction.

Per your understanding of scripture. Peter has a far better understanding as an apostle, and he described the unwillingness of God to allow anyone to perish. Peter also describes rescue from the depths of hell.