Rashida Tlaib Posts Video Of Protesters Calling For Gaza To Take Over Israel, Says Biden Is Supporting ‘Genocide’

durangodawood

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.....58% of people living in Gaza support the mission statement of Hamas which involves eliminating the Jews, as well as eliminating anything that "disrupts the sovereignty of Islam in this region", to which they say that the only solution to address anything that challenges Islamic sovereignty in the region is: "There is no solution except through Jihad"....
I might feel that way after decades of subjugation.

Not saying its right. But I do think its pretty natural among humans for resentments to accumulate in those conditions, over that long a time, and to that level.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I might feel that way after decades of subjugation.

Not saying its right. But I do think its pretty natural among humans for resentments to accumulate in those conditions, over that long a time, and to that level.
That could a contributing factor...however, given past attitudes toward Jews from Islamic countries. I question how much of it is due to their specific circumstances vs how much of it is a religion-driven "trend"

Left to their own devices, and in times when there wasn't an "occupied vs. occupier" dynamic even in question, predominately Islamic countries still came up with the conclusion of "we need to get the Jews out of here"

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I think people need to get real and be honest about the fact that not all religions present the same challenges.

As secularists, we often feel compelled to stay within the bound of "even-handedness", where we feel compelled to counterbalance extremism from Religion A with an example from Religion B in order to not be labelled "biased". But we're doing ourselves a disservice by not being honest about the fact that certain religious ideologies lend themselves to being more problematic than others.

200 years of Christian dominance in the US, largely left to their own devices, our idea of "extreme" is someone saying promiscuous women shouldn't have access abortions and gay people shouldn't get married. Left to their own devices, Islamic countries come up with the conclusion that women who cheat on their husbands should be beaten or beheaded, and that gay men should be thrown off of rooftops in public display in front of cheering onlookers much like one would take their family to county fair.

As someone who's against theocracy (in all forms), I don't think we're doing ourselves any favors by appealing to abstracts and saying "all religions have their extremists" in the name of political correctness.

People can identify the "levels" to it when comparing Westboro Baptist Church to the local Episcopalian church up the street and accurately identify that one is definitely more problematic than the other... we need to extend that and be honest about the differences in the world religions (even if it gets us accused of being "un-PC")
 
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JosephZ

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Extremists originated the slogan, not the other way around

Initially popularized by the Palestine Liberation Organization upon its founding in 1964 as a "main goal of the movement"

Political groups have employed the slogan since the 1960s to advocate for Palestinian liberation, with origins in the Palestinian National Council's initial charters, which demanded a Palestinian state geographically encompassing the historic boundaries of Mandatory Palestine, and a removal of a majority of its Jewish population.


The slogan was popularized by the PLO...as in, the same PLO that had Arafat as their leader.
The origins of the slogan predate the PLO.

Its origin dates back to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. It is a call for a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, territory that includes Israel. The slogan gained traction in the 1960s, particularly during Six-Day War in 1967.


On November 29th, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. While Jews in Palestine rejoiced, the country’s Arabs bitterly opposed the partition plan.

The reason was that they saw all of Palestine — from the river to the sea — as one indivisible homeland. They invoked the story of Solomon and the baby to explain their stance. Like the real mother in the parable, who begged Solomon to refrain from splitting her baby in half, Palestinian Arabs couldn’t stand to see their beloved country split in two. And they saw the Zionists’ eager reception of the plan as an ominous sign that they intended to conquer the whole of Palestine.

...after 1948, Palestinians were not able to live with full freedom and dignity anywhere in their homeland.

That’s how the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s. It was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine. Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes.

Dismissing or ignoring what this phrase means to the Palestinians is yet another means by which to silence Palestinian perspectives. Citing only Hamas leaders’ use of the phrase, while disregarding the liberationist context in which other Palestinians understand it, shows a disturbing level of ignorance about Palestinians’ views at best, and a deliberate attempt to smear their legitimate aspirations at worst.



Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas (from 2021)

And this link

Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)

But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents.
You said "58% of people living in Gaza support the mission statement of Hamas which involves eliminating the Jews, as well as eliminating anything that 'disrupts the sovereignty of Islam in this region', to which they say that the only solution to address anything that challenges Islamic sovereignty in the region is: 'There is no solution except through Jihad;'" neither of the polls you provided support that claim.

There has been a more recent poll taken by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, which is the organization in your first link, and it shows that 69% of Palestinians say Hamas doesn't deserve to represent the Palestinian people.
 
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ralliann

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"From the river to the sea" is a call for freedom. When you hear protesters using this phrase, it means freedom from occupation, blockade, discrimination, and bombardment. The full chant goes “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. The people who use this phrase, for the most part, overwhelmingly believe in the coexistence of Muslims and Jews. On the other hand, when you hear Hamas and other terrorist groups use "River to the Sea,", it usually means they want the state of Israel to cease to exist. The chant predates Hamas by several decades, and Hamas certainly does not own that phrase.
Oh stop. It is a call for the destruction of Israel. Wipe it off the map. And that is what the six day war was about. Some Arabic states still don't have Israel on their maps.
 
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durangodawood

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That could a contributing factor...
Its enough on its own to explain the hated.
I question how much of it is due to their specific circumstances vs how much of it is a religion-driven "trend"
For sure contemporary Islam is more prone to ideological extremism than any other major religion. (I do observe that other religions are making some efforts to catch up tho). Otoh, Israel had recently made historic accords with various Islam dominated gulf states, so Israel rejection is not a given for Muslims.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The origins of the slogan predate the PLO.

Its origin dates back to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. It is a call for a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, territory that includes Israel.
How does one create a state in territory that includes the land of another country without removal of that country?

That aside, popularized (origination of the current sentiment) outweighs historically less popularized contexts with regards to this conversation.

For instance the Swastika symbolism technically predates the Nazis. If you see someone displaying such symbolism, would you assume "oh, this person could just be a really big fan of Jainism"... or does one particular ideology, for practical purposes, "own" that now?
You said "58% of people living in Gaza support the mission statement of Hamas which involves eliminating the Jews, as well as eliminating anything that 'disrupts the sovereignty of Islam in this region', to which they say that the only solution to address anything that challenges Islamic sovereignty in the region is: 'There is no solution except through Jihad;'" neither of the polls you provided support that claim.
There has been a more recent poll taken by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, which is the organization in your first link, and it shows that 69% of Palestinians say Hamas doesn't deserve to represent the Palestinian people.
Them having a preference for another Islamic leadership entity over Hamas doesn't negate what I said about them supporting the problematic mission statements of Hamas.

Per that same poll that you just linked. Despite their total support for Hamas (as a leadership entity) diminishing. -- to give that context, btw, But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups.

That more recent poll you provided also shows
  • Only 28% support the two-state solution
  • 71% support the formation of armed groups
  • 53% support a return to an armed intifada
Hamas isn't the only extremist entity in the area. So it's not really a reflection of a lessening of extremist viewpoints if they're just switching allegiance to other groups that hold many of the same troubling viewpoints.


If we were having a conversation where the crux of the discussion was the treatment of racial minorities in certain areas of the deep south. People leaving in the Klan in favor of supporting another group who also held troubling viewpoints about minorities isn't really a reflection the extremism lessening as much as it is an intra-group difference about other internal matters.


With regards to the underlying question:
Marking a notable shift in Palestinian public opinion, 60 percent of the population surveyed in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (55% and 68%, respectively) said that the five-year goal “should be to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine, from the river to the sea,” according to the poll, a position meaning the elimination of Israel.
 
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JosephZ

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With regards to the underlying question:
Marking a notable shift in Palestinian public opinion, 60 percent of the population surveyed in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (55% and 68%, respectively) said that the five-year goal “should be to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine, from the river to the sea,” according to the poll, a position meaning the elimination of Israel.
A more recent poll shows fewer Palestinians supporting that position.

Opinion has moved away from large majority support for “regaining historical Palestine, from the river to the sea,” dropping sharply from 66% in 2020 to just 37%.
 
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ralliann

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The origins of the slogan predate the PLO.

Its origin dates back to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. It is a call for a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, territory that includes Israel. The slogan gained traction in the 1960s, particularly during Six-Day War in 1967.


On November 29th, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. While Jews in Palestine rejoiced, the country’s Arabs bitterly opposed the partition plan.
So, Palestinian Jew's vs Palastinian Arab's
The reason was that they saw all of Palestine — from the river to the sea — as one indivisible homeland. They invoked the story of Solomon and the baby to explain their stance. Like the real mother in the parable, who begged Solomon to refrain from splitting her baby in half, Palestinian Arabs couldn’t stand to see their beloved country split in two. And they saw the Zionists’ eager reception of the plan as an ominous sign that they intended to conquer the whole of Palestine.
Palestinians couldn't give up their occupation of the land.
...after 1948, Palestinians were not able to live with full freedom and dignity anywhere in their homeland.
They were occupying the land. It was no more their "homeland" than any other Occupiers which were before them. A long line of occupiers of that land preceded them.
That’s how the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s. It was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine.
Historic "Palestine" was originally "occupied" by the Romans. Then others came after that. The Palestinians of today were late in modern history, to "occupy" the ancient land of ISRAEL.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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A more recent poll shows fewer Palestinians supporting that position.

Opinion has moved away from large majority support for “regaining historical Palestine, from the river to the sea,” dropping sharply from 66% in 2020 to just 37%.
So can you explain the logistics to me of how an entity would simultaneously not want to regain "from the river to the sea" while also simultaneously largely rejecting a two state solution?

Fair to assume they're not keen on sharing a singular country with Jewish people given these attitudes toward Judaism that are quite prevalent in the West Bank and Gaza?

ADL Survey
 
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expos4ever

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When did America become a country where Left-Wing extremists have the freedom to openly call for terrorism?
You are yet again, exaggerating. It is clear that believing that the state of Israel should be eliminated does not necessarily entail support for terrorism. It might, of course, but you are not justified in concluding that someone who believes the state of Israel should cease to exist necessarily supports terrorism. Perhaps it means a call for all Jews to be deported from the region, and dispersed to the rest of the world and giving the land to the Palestinians.

Am I suggesting that is reasonable? Of course not! But one cannot presume that calls for the end of the state of Israel entail support for terroristic acts.
 
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ralliann

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You are yet again, exaggerating. It is clear that believing that the state of Israel should be eliminated does not necessarily entail support for terrorism. It might, of course, but you are not justified in concluding that someone who believes the state of Israel should cease to exist necessarily supports terrorism. Perhaps it means a call for all Jews to be deported from the region, and dispersed to the rest of the world and giving the land to the Palestinians.
Why should this be? What right do they have to the Land that Israel does not have.
Am I suggesting that is reasonable? Of course not! But one cannot presume that calls for the end of the state of Israel entail support for terroristic acts.
True, but it certainly is injustice no matter how they spin it.
This the duty of all men, as they naturally know right from wrong.

Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
De 16:19 Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
 
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expos4ever

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Why should this be? What right do they have to the Land that Israel does not have.
What is the relevance of this? The issue is that a poster appears to have greatly exaggerated. I'm not even talking about who has right to the land.
True, but it certainly is injustice no matter how they spin it.
This the duty of all men, as they naturally know right from wrong.

Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
De 16:19 Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
Again, this is entirely beside the point. What does this have to do with the matter of exaggerating in one's post? You say all men know right from wrong - does this not apply when posters make claims that appear to be untrue?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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You are yet again, exaggerating. It is clear that believing that the state of Israel should be eliminated does not necessarily entail support for terrorism. It might, of course, but you are not justified in concluding that someone who believes the state of Israel should cease to exist necessarily supports terrorism. Perhaps it means a call for all Jews to be deported from the region, and dispersed to the rest of the world and giving the land to the Palestinians.

Am I suggesting that is reasonable? Of course not! But one cannot presume that calls for the end of the state of Israel entail support for terroristic acts.
You're correct in that saying a certain national/political entity shouldn't exist isn't always call for extremism terrorism (Example: There's no longer a nation of Czechoslovakia, they actually had a peaceful dissolution in the 90's and went their separate ways and broke out into two separate countries)

...and I'm sure most were glad the Soviet Union ceased to exist, and that wouldn't be a pro-terrorist stance.

However, with regards to this particular situation, I don't see any evidence suggesting that the Palestinians desire any sort of Czech Republic/Slovakia "shake hands and agree to go our separate ways" sort of arrangement.

When you combine both the the past 2 decades of attacks & rejection of 2-state proposals, with the underlying sentiments the Palestinians have for Jews, in general...it points more to a "We want a 1-state solution, and in our solution, you don't exist in it" type of thing.

There's some serious hostility toward Jews in Majority-Muslim nations that we in westernized countries have largely been insulated from.

And while it diminishes to a degree when Muslims are removed from those theocratic environments, the numbers still aren't great.

For instance, the first link I provided shows that 93% of Palestinians believes the tropes about "Jews secretly control global politics and the banking system, cause all the world wars, talk about the holocaust too much". When you look at surveys from British Muslims asking the same types of questions, that number is still between 40-50%. They're just constrained in what they can do about it due to westernized British law having more robust legal protections than Islamic countries.


But none of this cancels out the glaring ideological self-conflict on the part of the American progressives (particularly the younger ones) by taking a pro-Palestinian activist stance on this.

For instance, if a GOP senator said "Jews control the banking system" or "Y'know, they talk about the holocaust too much to drum up sympathy" it'd be front page news for weeks and that senator would be rightfully labelled "alt-right". (Marjorie Greene's odd space lasers comment got a fair amount of press...as it should, and progressives were right to call it out). However, that seems to be lost on some of the activists who are currently sticking up for people who believe things that are even worse about the Jews, and in higher percentages.

It also flies in the face of their "de facto" logic (with regard to the concept of original occupant land rights) they typically take when the subject is how Europeans came over and displaced indigenous tribes. The Jewish people are, in a sense, the "Native Americans" of that piece of land.

If this were a scenario where world governments came over and annexed off the land, once owned by a tribe and gave it back to them (because every other state was trying to kick them out and they needed a safe place to go), and displaced some white people who had later occupied (as in 400 years later) it in the process, and the white people started launching rockets at it non-stop for a decade, and the tribe had enough and hit back... I can't imagine these college progressives taking the side of the more-recently displaced white people in that hypothetical scenario.
 
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Ana the Ist

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"From the river to the sea" is a call for freedom. When you hear protesters using this phrase, it means freedom from occupation, blockade, discrimination, and bombardment. The full chant goes “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”.

It's a literal call for genocide.

For a Palestinian state to exist "from the river to the sea" the state of Israel would have to be eliminated.

I understand it's difficult to accept that perhaps the side of the you may agree with is suddenly flush with fringe lunatics but it appears that's the reality of the situation.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I might feel that way after decades of subjugation.

Not saying its right. But I do think its pretty natural among humans for resentments to accumulate in those conditions, over that long a time, and to that level.
I might feel that way after decades of subjugation.

Not saying its right. But I do think its pretty natural among humans for resentments to accumulate in those conditions, over that long a time, and to that level.

It didn't take them that long....




There's the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem hanging with Hitler himself.

In reality the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire which you could say occurred gradually for hundreds of years before Israel saw mass expulsions of Jews, mass murders of Jews, and rampant antisemitism despite Jewish people already being second class citizens in basically everywhere.
 
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expos4ever

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It's a literal call for genocide.

For a Palestinian state to exist "from the river to the sea" the state of Israel would have to be eliminated.
I do not follow the reasoning here. Yes for a Palestinian state to exist from the river to the Sea, the state of Israel would indeed have to be eliminated. But that certainly does not necessarily imply genocide.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I do not follow the reasoning here. Yes for a Palestinian state to exist from the river to the Sea, the state of Israel would indeed have to be eliminated. But that certainly does not necessarily imply genocide.

It does necessarily imply genocide.

If you want, I'll read explicitly from the original founding document of Hamas...and point it out to you.

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"....There is no solution for the Palestine question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. Palestine is an Islamic land.

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan alBanna, of blessed memory)


The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day?
This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations till the Day of Judgement.


That last part is my favorite, because it's so clearly hypocritical. Do Muslims reject the concept of "right of conquest"? No...they don't. Certainly not when they do it. In fact, it's a central aspect of Islam as they believe one day they will conquer the entire world.


Lovely document Hamas wrote as its foundational charter. They gave it a glossy progressive update in 2017, but frankly....I don't ever see a Palestinian speak out against or poorly of Hamas. Quite the opposite, they cheer them and their violence on.
 
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expos4ever

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It does necessarily imply genocide.
I see no evidence for this. Just because there is a call to kill Jews in certain Scriptures does not necessarily mean that anyone who uses the phrase "from the river to the sea" sees such killing as the only means by which this land would be reclaimed for the Palestinians.

You are, it seems to me, putting forward the following faulty argument:

1. There is a call to Muslims to kill Jews to recover the land
2. The phrase "from the river to the sea" has been used by those who are willing to heed this call.
3. Therefore, anyone who uses this phrase must, therefore, be in favour of killing Jews.

This reasoning is clearly incorrect since someone who does not want to kill Jews, but simply have them deported, might very reasonably use the phrase "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". It appears to me that you are overlooking this possiblity.

I would agree that historically, this phrase does indeed connect to a call for genocide. And that it does so today for a certain class of fundamentalist Muslims. But I suggest the college kids who chant this in the streets of Manhattan are guilty mostly of ignorance and a desire to fit in with their "tribe".
 
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expos4ever

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However, with regards to this particular situation, I don't see any evidence suggesting that the Palestinians desire any sort of Czech Republic/Slovakia "shake hands and agree to go our separate ways" sort of arrangement.
I have never denied that "from the river to the sea" language might entail a call to genocide of Jews. And, in fact, I am convinced it probably does mean this in most cases overall over time.

My objection has been to the shoddy logic used by some here - they equate approval of this phrase with a call to genocide without any reasonable supporting argument.

But let's talk about the crowds today in the streets of western nations. I cynically suggest that many of these people are chanting this chant with little to no knowledge of its connection to calls for genocide. These are people who are fundamentally driven by tribal affiliation - wanting to signal their allegiance to "the oppressed" - and not by a nuanced understanding of all the history and context.

In short, I suggest it is exceedingly rash to presume that the use of this phrase necessarily entails support for rape, murder, and beheading.

But let's talk about Tlaib. She, unlike the college kids in the streets, should know better. And I agree it was highly irresponsible of her to affirm the use of the "from the river to the sea" language - she should know about its historical connection to calls for genocide. But, I suggest we both know that some posters here are licking their chops at any opportunity to "put it to the Libs" and have jumped all over this and made all sorts of unwarranted assumptions.

Are you really going to tell me that you think Tlaib supports rape, murder, and beheading? Maybe. But I think it far more likely she is an iconoclast who sees her cause as the Palestinians and she got caught up in the moment and exhibited dreadful judgment.
 
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