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Featured Rapture Wimpism

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by jgr, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi jgr,

    Yes I fully agree that there can be `rapture wimps.` Believers who are so selfish in their lives and expecting to be `caught away` out of trouble. They definitely will not be ready to be caught away as their focus is on self.

    Now lets look at that word `tribulation.`

    Tribulation - Gk. word `thlipsis,` meaning pressure, (lit. or fig.) afflicted, anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

    Anguish - extreme pain, either of body or mind, agony, grief.

    Jgr, you seemed to have concentrated on the tribulation, anguish of body, when we see that that word can mean extreme pain of mind also.

    We know that mind is the battle field also of the enemy, (2 Cor. 10: 4 & 5, Eph. 6: 12) So it is only the Lord who knows who is going through such trials and tribulations, of body or mind and as such He can deem `overcomers.`

    Those overcomers are told they will sit with Him on His throne. (Rev. 3: 21) So we know that when God the Father sends Jesus for His mature Body of overcomers, then that will be the time for the Lord to be crowned Supreme Ruler, (visible) over all God`s great Kingdom.

    From that throne in the third heaven, the Lord with His Body will begin the judgments upon the rebellious angels and rebellious nations of the world. ( (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

    Thus we see that it is only those who are overcomers, and are `eagerly awaiting` the Lord, knowing His purposes, who will have a spirit that is tuned, ready for the Lord`s call.

  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Hi Marilyn,

    I mean it in whatever senses the writers of the Scripture passages in which it appears meant it.
  3. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

    United States
    I think you can improve on your choice of descriptions. "Rapture wimps" is highly inconsiderate and sabotages your presentation.
  4. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    You clearly are not morally superior; to correct in scripture is not to call those with other beliefs than your own wimps. My church believes in the rapture and we are bold for Christ recognizing the events of the tribulation are forming. We agree with your assessment of prior church history and agree that in this life we too suffer tribulation and persecution. The distinction is that God has not appointed us for wrath and the 7 year tribulation is a specific period of time that is also known as the 70th week of Daniel. This period is the wrath of God coming upon the earth. We teach endurance and not complacency. We are not sitting on a hill sipping Lattes waiting for the LORD to take us out but are earnest in occupying until He comes. This is common ground we both should hold. i am not going to lay out a detailed defense of the scriptures supporting the rapture as that is really not necessary. I hope you have a little more respect for those who are a bit different from you but you certainly expressed many misunderstandings of those who hold to this teaching.
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    It's mild compared to some of the epithets directed at me.
  6. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

    God has saved Noah and his family from the judgment of the flood so did God rescue Lot from Sodom be4 the destruction. Yes christians will be persecuted but in the end of times they shall be rescued out of the destruction of the world by God Himself.

    So you see that God must save His people be4 He pours His wrath to the world otherwise His wrath will also destroy His people.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  7. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi jgr,

    So....when God sends Jesus for His Body, (Acts 3: 20 & 21) when do you see that is? And with scriptures please.

    regards, Marilyn.
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    New Zealand
    Prophecy is quite clear: The Lord will protect His people on His Day of wrath, not remove them. The prime example is the 3 men in the fiery furnace; Daniel 3:19-27
    All who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved, Acts 2:21, by protection; Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 31:23-24, 1 Corinthians 10:13 and 20 + more verses proving what God will do for His faithful Christian people.
    I carefully re read Acts 3:20-21 and its context, as I have not seen that scripture used before by the rapture proponents.
    Acts 3:19-22 says we must repent so our sins may be wiped out, then we will get a time of recovery. Jesus must remain in heaven during this time of recovery and restoration, spoke of by the Prophets. THEN Jesus will Return to us.
    I cannot find anything there to support a rapture to heaven, it just reiterates what all the Bible prophets tell us: The holy Land will be cleared and cleansed; Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 2:14-15, The Lord's people, every born again Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language, will travel there and live for a time of recovery. Much else will take place, but eventually the Messiah, that is: Jesus - appointed for us will come to us.
    The Prophet mentioned in verse 22, is of course: Jesus.
  9. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi keras,

    Glad I can bring something new to the discussion. Thanks for replying to that specific scripture. Now where does it say that the holy land rulership under Christ was the first area needing restoration?

    regards, Marilyn.
  10. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    Hi I like your initial thought that the burden of proof is on those who believe in it to make their case. Your conclusion that a case cannot be made I would say you would have to decide that on a case by case basis. This may be a long post and I will ask some rhetorical questions and hope you might follow along and track with this brief defense. The Rapture is tied to several other related eschatological events such as a future 7 year tribulation and the literal return of Jesus to reign on earth for 1000 years. So many who do not believe in the rapture have completely opposite views on these other related subjects. Some think the tribulation already happened and that there is no millennium while others think that there is a kingdom of God coming for 1000 years and that at the end of the tribulation Jesus comes and reigns. While others believe Jesus will reign in heaven while David is raised to rule on earth for this time. All these issues again are divided on is the church Israel or does national Israel still have a prophetic destiny?

    In these areas there is far much more material to discuss in scripture than there is regarding the rapture of the church. But when we look at the combination of what ones eschatology is, you come to find a distinct Biblical world view that there are many to choose from. Some are now looking at these as allegories or spiritualized while others look at them in light of the church fathers through tradition. The combination of eschatological beliefs of rapture supporters represents a more literal view of the Bible and prophecy more specifically. This combination would hold that the future holds for a rise of antichrist during a 7 year period of global government in which a literal person is world ruler through the power of Satan and is called the beast. At the same time a spiritual leader called the false prophet is also involved. So for those who believe all this occurred in 70 AD. Who were the two witnesses and when were they killed? Did Nero survive a mortal wound and then have a mark to buy or sell and death to anyone who would not worship the image? The sacrifice was stopped in 70 AD but what happened 42 months later as both Daniel and Revelation said would be from the abomination of desolation? Did Jesus return at that time and we not know it? Satan is supposed to be bound for 1000 years if you do not believe in a millennium when was he bound? Did those beheaded for Christ live and reign with Him while Satan is bound which is clearly in the text? Some say the beasts are two systems not individuals so how could when the 1000 years is over Satan be loosed to be foiled at one last rebellion and then be cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are?

    The rapture believer sees great significance in current events of global government and the Eccumenical movement is trying to bring in a one world government oddly at a time when Israel is back as a nation and has also prepared everything for the return of the sacrifice not done since 70AD. The very scenarios many who deny the rapture an insist already occurred in 70 AD are lined up to happen against incredible odds. The main rapture verses are 1 Thess 4

    5 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    This verse establishes several facts. That at this event those alive in Christ will meet the LORD in the air. The Lord will descend and the voice is that of an arch angel but the trumpet is that of God. Many see the 7th trump if Reveleation as this moment but that is trump of God but m of one of the 7 angles. The meeting of the living and the dead in Christ is in the air and this is a word of comfort.

    Jesus said in Luke “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
    Again the scope is these events are coming upon the whole earth and 70AD was localized. Pray to escape and be standing before Jesus.
    Jesus to the church of Philadelphia:Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

    !cor 15:
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Again here is a passage promising not all will die that there will be change. The trump again is up for debate, Thess says it is the trump of God and this seam to be describing the same event. The idea of being ready for the bridegroom is throughout scripture where the groom comes for his bride and she need be ready. The 6 wise and 6 unwise illustrate this a bit. The concept of Christ coming for his bride differs distinctly with the concept of Christ coming with His saints. Jude quotes Enoch saying 4 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

    Zech 14 this is a key chapter if it is literal it describes the 2nd coming of Jesus with His saints.
    1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
    And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
    2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
    The city shall be taken,
    The houses rifled,
    And the women ravished.
    Half of the city shall go into captivity,
    But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then the LORD will go forth
    And fight against those nations,
    As He fights in the day of battle.
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
    Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
    And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
    From east to west,
    Making a very large valley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
    And half of it toward the south.
    Thus the LORD my God will come,
    And all the saints with You.[fn]
    6 It shall come to pass in that day
    That there will be no light;
    The lights will diminish.
    7 It shall be one day
    Which is known to the LORD—
    Neither day nor night.
    But at evening time it shall happen
    That it will be light.
    8 And in that day it shall be
    That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
    Half of them toward the eastern sea
    And half of them toward the western sea;
    In both summer and winter it shall occur.
    9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
    In that day it shall be—
    “The LORD is one,”[fn]
    And His name one.
    The people shall dwell in it;
    And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
    But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
    12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
    Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
    Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
    And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
    16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

    Here at the 2nd coming we see when Christ takes over as Jerusalem is being overrun and the Lord comes with his saints. The Mt of Olives has split in two and it is a day that it is night and God melts the enemies . It says on this day that the LORD is king over all the earth and from that point on the nations must keep the feast of tabernacles of they get no rain and also this is a night that it is daylight out.

    This is the day Satan is bound and the 1000 years begins. The Mt of Olives has never split this river has never flowed and the nations have never had to keep the feast of tabernacles. The saints have come with the LORD so did he meet them in the air to launch an immediate assault? Or were they already with him having been counted worthy to escape these things and been kept from them? The statement is ZEch 14 which says in this day they will say that the LORD is one is key. This is Jesus coming with His saints and Israel confesses Jesus is God. They understand all along that they were wrong and Hosea 1 which says in the place where it was said you are not my people you will be called sons of the living God. Israel as Paul siad is partially blind until... until this time. There is so much more evidence that there is a 1000 year kingdom from Israel with Jesus as king. This follows a 7 year tribulation. Some of you call yourself pre wrath which I agree but I believe the whole 7 years is the wrath of God. Some who think we all must go through it and be willing to die. These are much more minor divisions that we have than with those who believe none of this is future. I pray we can all unite and agree to share Jesus now and present out views backed by scripture with kindness and good fellowship.

    For those who have been taught it all already happened why is it set up again in a very literal manner?
  11. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi Brian,

    While I do agree with much of what you say, I do have a couple of thoughts regarding the above quotes.

    1. The rapture, the catching away, is specifically tied to when God sends Jesus to bring the body of Christ to His own throne in the third heaven. That is the first rulership to be restored. (Acts 3: 21 Rev. 3: 21)

    2. The word in Jude is NOT saints, but `holy ones.` The Gk. word `hagio` referring to sacred ones, which can be either angels or saints, and thus more scriptures are needed to specify which. Then we see the Lord Himself specifically says that He is coming with His holy angels to deliver Israel and judge the rebellious nations. (Matt. 25: 31)

    And that is a big difference.

    regards, Marilyn
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    New Zealand
    Your quote of Acts 3:20-21 brought nothing new to the rapture debate. It is just another scripture, that if used in an attempt to prove a rapture, simply shows the total lack of Biblical support for that theory.

    Initially, Jesus will not rule Beulah, the new Christian nation in all of the holy Land. They will elect their own leaders: Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21
    Only after our refinement and restoration and all that is prophesied to happen before the glorious Return of Jesus, to reign over the whole world, will the Millennium commence.

    Brian Macnamee, As we are poles apart with our beliefs and Bible interpretation, discussion is practically impossible. I have before on this forum, addressed the scriptures you quote and none of them say anything about a rapture to heaven.

    Re understanding prophecy; I am not a preterist, but the prophesies about Jesus's first Advent were literally fulfilled, so I believe the ones about the end times will be also literally fulfilled. [excepting the obvious metaphors and figures of speech, that can be related to actual people or events]

    Re the onus of proof for a rapture to heaven: as Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible, you have a hard row to hoe! John 3:13
  13. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi keras,

    Actually if we study God`s word carefully, we will see that God the Father will appoint His Son, the only one worthy, to be crowned to rule from the third heaven. This is the realm that Lucifer was a kingpriest in and because he was found unworthy, he was cast out.

    God made all, yes all realms for Christ to be ruler in. Thus we see in God`s word that the Father will send Jesus to bring the mature Body of Christ to the third heaven where the Lord will be coroneted. Then He starts to bring all rule and authority under His feet, starting with Satan and his fallen angels.

    So it is quite clear that all authority comes from the highest seat of power and authority, (3rd heaven) and issues forth from there. The restoration of the earthly rule is later, and obviously is not first.

  14. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    Regarding John 3 I think the declaration of Jesus demonstrates He alone controls that airspace in his own authority as in the OT Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. We see Elijah was taken up without death and also Enoch who was not for God took him. There are two passages, 1 in Thes the other in Cor that speak of men being translated prior to death. If we can agree on this as a literal future event than the discussion can be moved to a more specific debate about the timing of when such event will transpire.
  15. RayJeena

    RayJeena When life gives you demons, make demonade. Supporter

    United States
    To be fair, way back when I was more focused on a rapture, I jokingly referred to myself as a ‘wuss’ because of my pre-trib position on it, because obviously, as a relatively sane person (emphasis on the relatively), I didn’t want to be here when God pulled out His can of whoop-[bleep] on everyone. I mean, are you kidding me? No thanks! :D

    So I'm not a wimp, I'm a wuss, thank you very much. :D :D

    Now I realize that we don’t need a capital-"T"-Tribulation to get the job done when this world already offers a wide array of lower-case-"t"-tribulations on which to build and test our spiritual muscle. Anything beyond that just seems born out of a desire to be considered the one solitary generation, out of all that came before, deemed worthy enough to endure extra-special trials because we’re just all that and a bag of chips compared to other generations before us. After all, God doesn't give us anything we can't handle, so if we can handle The Tribulation, then we must be first-class... or something...

    Even standard-issue tribulation can be tough enough to get through (depending on one's personal makeup). My guess is some of those who talk up being here and Standing Strong for God during The Tribulation will be the first to cave when (more like if) the schnitzel hits the pan.
  16. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi Brian,

    You quoted me but I do not see any reply to my comments. Did you have anything to respond?

    regards, Marilyn.
  17. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    I disagree with you that Jesus ever lost that authority in the 3rd heaven. We see Job presenting himself to the LORD and the LORD said to him have you considered my servant Job. The LORD had the authority up there and never lost it. I agree the rapture those is Christ are taken to the 3rd heaven. The kingdom of Christ is on earth and Jesus will reign here for 1000 years. The throne of David is an earthly throne and Christ will sit upon it. In Acts 1 just before Jesus ascended;
    Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. ..
    Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    Acts 1 shows the disciples expected the restoration of the kingdom of Israel. Jesus said that the times of this is under the Fathers authority. Later the angels said Jesus would descend the same way He ascended. So now the question is to establish that Jesus reigns from earth for the 1000 years and not from the 3rd heaven.

    Act 3:21 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[fn] 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

    In Acts 3 is this restoration of the kingdom of Israel with Jesus reigning or is it Jesus restoring things in the 3rd heaven. The verses are said to be contained in the words of the prophets so I will present a case for the restoration being the throne of David on earth being restored and you would have to show that things in heaven also needed restoring. I frankly do not see anything in heaven that needed restoring as from the garden man lost his life and needed a savior and the earth was cursed and this is taken away and restored. In heaven I see the rebellion of Lucifer and his angels but no curse or redemption and restoration promised.

    The prophecies that support the return of Jesus as the king on earth are many. Dan 2 is a prime example of the vision of Nebuchadnezzar. The image of the metal statute is the kingdoms of man and the stone cut without hands will descend and destroy the kingdoms man leaving no trace of them and this stone becomes a kingdom that shall not end that covers the entire earth. Isaiah 7 point to Jesus being on the throne of David from that point on forever.
    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of His government and peace
    There will be no end,
    Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
    To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
    From that time forward, even forever.
    The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Luke 1 The angel Gabriel to Mary
    Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

    Luke 1 Zacharias
    67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
    68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people,
    69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
    In the house of His servant David,
    70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
    Who have been since the world began,
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies
    And from the hand of all who hate us,
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
    And to remember His holy covenant,
    73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
    74 To grant us that we,
    Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
    Might serve Him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
    Here Jesus is a horn of deliverance saying He will save them from their enemies and from that point on they will worship and serve the LORD without fear all the days of their lives. Zech 14 shows the day of this deliverance and the beginning of the kingdom of the LORD on earth. This chapter clearly shows the 2nd coming of Jesus with His saints destroying his enemies and delivering Israel. It says in that day the LORD will be king over all the earth. It says in that day the LORD'S feet shall stand on the MT of Olives and it will split in two. It shows a new river flowing from there year round and a clear continuation of live on earth as now the nations must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Jesus has come and the kingdom established just as Dan 2 says and acts he descends and this kingdom destroys all others and this is the kingdom which will have no end.

    Psalm 110
    The LORD said to my Lord,
    “Sit at My right hand,
    Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
    2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
    Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
    The LORD says to Davids Lord sit at my right hand until...until what? I make your enemies your footstool. Zech 14 the enemies are now the footstool and the decree to now Rule in the midst of the enemies is taken effect.

    Dan 7 shows the same thing
    13 “I was watching in the night visions,
    And behold, One like the Son of Man,
    Coming with the clouds of heaven!
    He came to the Ancient of Days,
    And they brought Him near before Him.
    14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
    That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    Which shall not pass away,
    And His kingdom the one
    Which shall not be destroyed.

    He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute[fn] the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time.
    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.
    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

    You see Satan was king of this earth until the 2nd coming which is a times times and half a time from the abomination of desolation or 42 month and he loses his dominion and is bound for 1000 years.

    Dan 7
    1 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time

    Revelation says the serpent gave his authority to the beast and again 42 month later the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for 1000 years and released. In Dan 7 hear says the beast was slain but the other beasts lost their dominion but their lives were prolonged a season and a time. The season is 1000 years bound. the time is the time to be loosed at the end of the millennium. Then it says in Rev 20
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

    They lived and reigned with Jesus for 1000 years.

    7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    In John before Pilate:
    36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

    That, " for now my kingdom is not from here" is important. This seems a long reply and yet it is really brief as these subjects there is much richness and revelation.
  18. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member


    It is true, there is no lack of tribulation for the church in this present fallen world, but the Great Tribulation which the Bible describes as God pouring out His wrath upon this sinful world is not for the church, Christ's bride! If those believers who are looking forward to the blessed hope and return of their beloved Savior to deliver them from the wrath God will pour on those who refuse to repent is "wimpy" then I am one, as was Paul.

    ...while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13-14

    For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.1 Thess. 1:8-10
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  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    The Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are two different Greek words.

    God pours out His wrath at Christ's Second Coming when Christ returns in "flaming fire", based on 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

    The following verses completely destroy the pretrib doctrine.

    Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 
    (A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.)

    Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 
    (At least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan, instead of the wrath of God, as revealed by the verse above.)

  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    New Zealand
    Notice: Jesus said; ....now My Kingdom is not earthly.
    Satan is the king of the earth now, he is the 'roaring lion, looking for someone to devour', 1 Peter 5:8
    But we Christians have Jesus' promise: Have no fear My little flock, for the Father has chosen to give you the Kingdom.