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Featured Rapture Wimpism

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by jgr, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

    In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

    There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

    But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

    The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

    Acts 14:22
    Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

    Romans 5:3
    And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

    2 Corinthians 1:4
    Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

    1 Thessalonians 3:4
    For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

    Revelation 1:9
    I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    ...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


    God has promised...:

    John 16:33
    These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    ...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


    But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  2. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    I agree that cowardice is not a virtue. I don't like at all that other people would do evil to others but it sometimes happens. I do not glory in being persecuted because it sucks that people are so crude that they do such things and it's not good that they be that way. they are hard temptations to go through and if there were no evil people the good people would not even go through such things at all.

    chiefly a persecution that almost all christians will undergo is the persecution of evils inside of themselves. if you have not fought with devils in you then I very much doubt that you are at all trying to be in Christ.

    the very way reality is laid out makes it so that evil spirits can influence us if we let them and the same with good spirits. therefore the rapture would be to only live and be in heaven and always reject the evil spirits and their ways.
     
  3. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    So are people who die peacefully in their sleep rather than by some violent means considered "wimpy"?
     
  4. sethrak

    sethrak Member

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    I think they were talking about people who buy the rapture and believe they will be taken away safely~
    -------------------------------
    John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD
     
  5. sethrak

    sethrak Member

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  6. imsaneru

    imsaneru Member

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    What a wonderful and refreshing outlook on this comic book rapture nonsense , may God bless you jgr.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  7. Eryk

    Eryk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Bible makes a distinction between the persecution of the Church and the hour of trial coming to the whole world.

    Revelation 3:10
    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

    Literally, I will keep you out of the hour of trial. Revelation 3:10 Interlinear: 'Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

    This message was given to the Philadelphian church but is applicable to all believers (Revelation 3:13).

    Earth-dwellers are contrasted with heaven-dwellers, and the unsaved are contrasted with Christians. Christians have been removed from the Earth at the time of the great tribulation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  8. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    I generally don't want to be persecuted..but if I live righteously....

    So there's is a way to escape it happening...it's called...

    Compromise!
    ...Of course it will cost you your salvation....
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  9. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    It's been a while since I've seen an OP in full open attack mode.

    The great tribulation is described as a time of darkness, unlike anything before it or anything after it. So, while you can show off your word search skills and allude to physical persecutions that have and do exist, they all pale in comparison to what lies ahead.

    The rapture is taught as pre-trib, because the scripture teaches it as pre-trib. It's not a North American thing, it is a hope for all believers, both those under severe and less severe persecutions. While you may think it's foolish to do as Jesus commanded and to pray that we would escape that time of tribulation and instead stand before Him, I will continue to do just that. Feel free to stick around.
     
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  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Comparing scripture with scripture quickly demonstrates this usage of "ever was nor ever shall be":

    Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hyperbolic Hebraic idiom.

    St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
    "These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people." (Luke 21:22-23)

    Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There are several verses that completely kill the pretrib doctrine and must be ignored to make the doctrine work.


    Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 

    A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.


    Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 

    The time of wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead are found right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.



    1Th 5:10  who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 

    The verse above proves that the timing of the resurrection event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is found in chapter 5, since the words "we" and "sleep" connect the two chapters.


    .
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You still haven't because, unlike other posts on these threads, the words "lie", "liar", "heretic", "heresy", et al; do not appear in my post. So I can't be credited with a "full open attack."

    Correction: Because Darby taught it as pre-trib.

    The disciples didn't think it was foolish; they heeded Jesus warnings and admonitions, acted upon them, and survived.

    I'll stick wherever God sticks me, just as His true Church always has and will.
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The OP is in full truth mode. It is believers in the rapture to heaven theory that must prove their case with scripture and any Bible studier knows you can't do that. So why believe it?
    We in New Zealand, most that I know of, at least; reject a rapture.
    Our great hope, the promise of Jesus to those who love Him, is for eternal life. John 3:16 Nowhere does it say in the Bible that the Church will go to live in heaven, but after the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, will come down to us. Revelation 21:1-4
     
  14. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    How about "wimps"?
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Most people wouldn't equate wimps with liars or heretics, but if you do, my apologies.
     
  16. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    A "full open attack" isn't limited to the terms "lie", "liar", "heretic", or "heresy".
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    It is understandable that those who have chosen to believe in a rapture to heaven, are aggrieved when that theory is challenged.
    No one needs to make derogatory comments about the other; we are all Christians here.
    But jgr has said what he did, in order to make those who maybe have never heard any alternative to the rapture, as I know for many; that is the only end time teaching they have had, to give consideration to the many prophesies that tell of protection for those who call upon His Name. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    No two ways about it; it is escapism to think you will be whisked up to heaven, when the Lord sends fire, earthquakes and storms on His Day of wrath. The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that everyone: the kings, the leaders, the rich and the poor, slave or free, the great and lowly, ALL will experience that Day. 1 Peter 4:12
    Then we see in Revelation 7:1-14 how those who have passed through the great ordeal; are gathered in the holy Land and Jesus is revealed to them. Revelation 14:1, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
    We Christians have work to do here. God always wanted a people in His Land, who would be His witnesses and the Light to the nations. He has never had that, but He will and that privilege is our destiny.
     
  18. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    No more escapist than to think one will be whisked up to heaven at all, rather than the alternative.

    Sometimes it seems people want to go through a tribulation, because it's been romanticized so much. It's approached like some sort of contest to see who can say they've been through the worst this world can throw at them. Lots of ego in there.

    Those who want to avoid the tribulation might be called "escapists", but then those who insist on going through it could just as easily be labeled "adrenaline addicts". It's all in how folks want to spin it.

    Personally, I don't have a hen in this horse-race, as my eschatology goes in a completely different direction from the tribulation-centered ones.
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No romanticism, adrenaline, or ego whatever. Just a recognition of the call and the need, with the true Church through the ages, to share in the fellowship of His sufferings. (Phil. 3:10)
     
  20. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    That's all well and good, but it doesn't require going through "The Tribulation" specifically to accomplish.
     
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