Rapture will happen..does it matter when?

[Psalm3704]

Now if you read verses 27-31, it describes the sign of His coming which all shall see (sun, moon, and stars - compare to description of breaking of 6th seal), then in verse 31 it describes the rapture (compare to great multitude appearing after breaking of 6th seal).

Matthew 24:27-31 is not the same sign as the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-13. Don't confuse the these two different events simply because the words sun, moon and stars are in those verses. Scrutiny is king when studying the word of God.

One event happens just before the tribulation while the other happens at the end of the tribulation.

Revelation 6:12-13 and Joel 2:30-31 are parallel scriptures describing the event in the photo below, an image of the blood moon that will happen just before the rapture (Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord)

Revelation 6:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Joel 2:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.​

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Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-25 and Joel 3:14-16 are parallel scriptures describing a post nuclear apocalypse. The sky is blanketed in a thick layer of cloud and smoke from a nuclear war, darkening the sky and diminishing the lights from the sun and moon, and stars from it's view.

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-25New King James Version (NKJV)
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Joel 3:14-1 6New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.
16 The Lord also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the Lord will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.​

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Other parallel scriptures.

Zephaniah 1:14-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 The great day of the Lord is near;
It is near and hastens quickly.
The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out.
15 That day is a day of wrath,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of devastation and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,​

Zechariah 14:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.

Isaiah 8:22
Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Amos 5:18
Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD, For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you? It will be darkness and not light;

Amos 5:20
Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light, Even gloom with no brightness in it?​

then in verse 31 it describes the rapture (compare to great multitude appearing after breaking of 6th seal).

Verse 31 is not the rapture. Read it carefully, the elects are gathered from heaven. You can't rapture people already in heaven. Read my signature. Scrutiny is king. The 6th seal doesn't happen near the end of the tribulation either.

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Paul, in 2nd Thess., likewise mentions that the Day of the LORD (when He comes for us) will not happen until after the revealing of the son of perdition and the falling away which will ensue. This all fits very nicely together, if one is willing to see it.

Sorry but this is very very old news, pretty ancient on this forum that has already been refuted with scripture. If you stay here long enough and get to know some of the people here, you'll realize some of the brightest minds on bible prophecy are on this forum.

That Day Paul referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the second coming, not the rapture of the church. Paul revealed what that Day is in the previous chapter, 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1, verse 10: "when He comes, in that Day"

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.​

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is the second coming, not the rapture.

In verse 6, it said "God to repay with tribulation."

In verse 8, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on the ungodly."

In verse 9, "Punishment and everlasting destruction."​

All this are clear descriptions of the second coming when Christ comes in Judgement, not the rapture when He comes as the Bridegroom with rewards. Scrutiny is king.

Back to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. What Paul is telling us is that Day (the second coming) will not happen till after the falling away and the man of sin revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,​

Not only that, the rapture is nowhere mentioned in the book of 2 Thessalonians. Paul covered the Rapture in the book of 1st Thessalonians. The 2nd book of Thessalonians is the Second Coming.

Of all things to do as a writer, Paul writes two books of Thessalonians of 1 1/2 page each. Why would Paul do this? It's simple. Christ's coming are in separated into two stages: first for the rapture of the church then second in judgement upon the world. He also placed the books in order, the rapture happens before the second coming.

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Paul wasn't the only one that revealed the rapture happening before the judgement. We find this also in Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.​

And Paul also revealed the church taken into heaven before the tribulation in Hebrews 12:22-29.

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.​

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[Straightshot]

"Not only that, the rapture is nowhere mentioned in the book of 2 Thessalonians"


You have a good posting above

However, Paul does refer to the gathering at the Lord's pre-tribulation call here [2 Thessalonians 2:1]

This is a key verse for understanding the sequence of events

Those he addresses were concerned about the false teaching of the day, that the "day of the Lord"
had already come and that they had missed His pre-tribulation calling which they had already been taught .... Paul sets them straight

 

[DingDing]

Matthew 24:27-31 is not the same sign as the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-13. Don't confuse the these two different events simply because the words sun, moon and stars are in those verses. Scrutiny is king when studying the word of God.

One event happens just before the tribulation while the other happens at the end of the tribulation.

...

Sorry, but every indication is that they are the same event. Now you might have been told that they are different events, and your eschatology may require that they be different events, but the fact is that the easiest and most natural understanding is that they are the same event. Nice pictures, though.

 

[DingDing]

You mentioned the seriousness of the rapture a couple of times. I also noticed you have a post tribulation view on the timing of the rapture. Please share with us your understanding of the true seriousness what the bible said about the rapture.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

Have you not read where Paul says that when the believers are raptured that Christ will bring the dead in Christ with Him? Those gathered when the rapture occurs will not be just those living on earth at that time.

 

[DingDing]

"Not only that, the rapture is nowhere mentioned in the book of 2 Thessalonians"
...

I was just passing by and this caught my attention. I'm not sure who originally said this, or if they were joking, but verse 2:1 is a reference to the rapture (among other places).

 

[Straightshot]

"Sorry, but every indication is that they are the same event. Now you might have been told that they are different events, and your eschatology may require that they be different events, but the fact is that the easiest and most natural understanding is that they are the same event"


Not the same .... Revelation 6:12-17 is a portent of the beginning of the tribulation period upon the whole world [Matthew 24:21] .... the actual events begin in Chapter 8

Matthew 24:29-31 is directed specifically to the surviving mortals of the Lord's nation of Israel at the ending of the tribulation period .... these will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24: 29-31; Matthew 25:31-46]

Those surviving mortals of the Gentile nations that support Israel [the Lord's brethren] during the time of Jacob's trouble will also enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals .... their support is indicative of those Gentiles who are tribulation believers

And there is no changing to immortality of any of them recorded in Matthew 24 or Matthew 25 at the ending of the tribulation period

The Lord's pre-tribulation call to immortality for both the dead in Christ and the living at the time will come first ..... then the period of His wrath will come against an unbelieving world

And it is during the same that some of Israel and of the Gentiles will turn to Him for their salvation

Most of those that do will be martyred and resurrected at the end of the tribulation period [Revelation 6:9-11; 11:7; 11:12; 13:7; 14:13; 20:4 [those beheaded]]

.... and those already on thrones are His pre-tribulation ecclesia

 

[DingDing]

Sorry, but every indication is that they are the same event. Now you might have been told that they are different events, and your eschatology may require that they be different events, but the fact is that the easiest and most natural understanding is that they are the same event. Nice pictures, though.

Not the same ....

Sorry, but there are way too many parallels to be coincidence - the signs and events described in Matthew 24 line up with those of Rev 6 and 7. But I do understand the need by the pre-trib group to claim they are different events.

 

[Straightshot]

"But I do understand the need by the pre-trib group to claim they are different events."


What you need to strive to understand is that the related scriptures themselves tell of the difference

One is at the beginning of the tribulation .... the other is at the ending

The first has an earthquake .... the second one does not

The first has stars falling to the earth [Satan and his fallen angels] ... if a celestial star fell to the earth the earth would be obliterated

The second has the visible disruption of the cosmos .... no stars falling to the earth

The second has the Lord appearing to earth dwellers after His judgment

The first has no visible appearance of Him to earth dwellers while He is meting out His judgments up on the earth

One must be careful not to neglect all of the details of prophetic scripture

 

[DingDing]

What you need to strive to understand is that the related scriptures themselves tell of the difference

One is at the beginning of the tribulation .... the other is at the ending
The first has an earthquake .... the second one does not
The first has stars falling to the earth [Satan and his fallen angels] ... if a celestial star fell to the earth the earth would be obliterated
The second has the visible disruption of the cosmos .... no stars falling to the earth
The second has the Lord appearing to earth dwellers after His judgment
The first has no visible appearance of Him to earth dwellers while He is meting out His judgments up on the earth

One must be careful not to neglect all of the details of prophetic scripture

I appreciate that you are trying to point out differences, but the format of your post makes it difficult to respond to. If you really want to discuss this, put scripture references side-by-side between Matthew 24 and Rev. 6&7 so that we have something tangible to talk to. Your first/second format really gives me little to go on; any responses I would give would be guesses as to what you meant.

 

[Straightshot]

Balderdash

You know where the related scriptures are in your Bible

As I look at your postings I see repeated attempts to sideline a conversation with excuse

Buck up and stop giving excuse

If you don't others will .... they have Bibles and can read and make comparisons

 

[DingDing]

Balderdash

You know where the related scriptures are in your Bible

As I look at your postings I see repeated attempts to sideline a conversation with excuse

Buck up and stop giving excuse

If you don't others will .... they have Bibles and can read and make comparisons

If you are unable or unwilling to list the scriptures side-by-side that you say don't line up, then I have nothing to address.

 

[Straightshot]

Just another excuse .... a runaround

You have the related scriptures ....get busy and do the study

Of course you will not, and because of this you have nothing to address

I am on to your game

You should find others to entertain you

 

[DingDing]

Just another excuse .... a runaround

You have the related scriptures ....get busy and do the study

Of course you will not, and because of this you have nothing to address

You are the one doing the run-around here. You said the passages don't line up - so which verse does not agree with which verse? I'm not going to try to guess what you were looking at. You are a very poor communicator.

 

[Straightshot]

People on this forum are watching you .... and so is the Lord

 

[DingDing]

People on this forum are watching you .... and so is the Lord

LOL! That is no excuse for your inability/unwillingness to put some scripture with your words. If the LORD were here, He would probably tell you to get off your duff and provide some references. So, if ever you provide them, I'll address them.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

This thread is to discuss what is important. does it truly matter when the rapture happens? Or does it matter more what we do until then seeing as how the bible states that we will never know the time, day, month, or year?

THIS IS ONLY FOR DEBATE NOT CONVERTING.

If it gets to wild and people start hating on others beliefs then I will ask that he thread be taken down.

The object is to have a good healthy discussion with the KINGDOM and not single denominations.

I like to style myself as the Pentecostal Lutheran, I was raised Lutheran but now attend and am a leader at a Church of God (TN) church

I think it is wise to be vigilant because we are instructed to watch and pray by Lord Jesus Himself.The way He made it sound, His return was imminent.Since His return did not happen back then, the devil has a field day undermining what Lord Jesus taught. Lord Jesus taught this
Matt. 28:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Teach ALL things that He commanded them including about the end days. But it has been so long since He has been gone, people are falling for all kind of lies about it. I say pick a position and stay with it. There was a time when Lord Jesus said to a man "according to your faith be it unto you." I believe He is coming according to our faith.

 

[Psalm3704]

Have you not read where Paul says that when the believers are raptured that Christ will bring the dead in Christ with Him? Those gathered when the rapture occurs will not be just those living on earth at that time.

I've read every book Paul wrote in the bible but I have yet to read anything you've written about the seriousness of the rapture. You sure have a lot to say about the rapture but yet to reveal any consistency with what the bible said.

Maybe posting a few scriptures might help?







.

​

 

[Psalm3704]

Sorry, but every indication is that they are the same event. Now you might have been told that they are different events, and your eschatology may require that they be different events, but the fact is that the easiest and most natural understanding is that they are the same event. Nice pictures, though.

If I listen to what people tell me and not listen to the thing I read in the bible, I too would believe in a post-trib rapture. However, any reason why you don't post scriptures to prove your point? If every indication points to them as the same event, you shouldn't have a problem finding evidence in the bible.

Revelation 6:12 is a blood moon. In Matthew 24:29, the moon is not red

In Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal, the tribulation hasn't begun yet and does not begin till after the 144,000 are sealed --- which is also an event of the 6th Seal. The event of Matthew 24:29 is "immediately after the tribulation."

Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ​

So let's use a little common sense here with your argument. By declaring both events as the same, are you telling us God will seal the 144,000 for their protection "immediately after the tribulation?"

Was this what you meant by the "seriousness of the rapture?"

Nice pictures, though.

I got more pictures but even better, I got more evidences from the bible. You're welcome to post scriptures too.

Ezekiel 32:5-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
5 I will cover mountains and valleys with your rotting corpse. 6 I will pour out your blood until it spreads over the mountains and fills the streams. 7 When I destroy you, I will cover the sky and blot out the stars. The sun will hide behind the clouds, and the moon will give no light. 8 I will put out all the lights of heaven and plunge your world into darkness. I, the Sovereign Lord, have spoken.​

Isaiah 13:9-11 Good News Translation (GNT)
9 The day of the Lord is coming—that cruel day of his fierce anger and fury. The earth will be made a wilderness, and every sinner will be destroyed. 10 Every star and every constellation will stop shining, the sun will be dark when it rises, and the moon will give no light. 11 The Lord says, “I will bring disaster on the earth and punish all wicked people for their sins. I will humble everyone who is proud and punish everyone who is arrogant and cruel.​

Joel 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them.​

You still think all this sounds like the blood moon of Revelation 6:12?

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If you have't figure out what the 6th seal is by now, just watch the video.

Revelation 6:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.​

Joel 2:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.​

.​

 

[TalwinStark]

If you truly are Lutheran then you would know that Lutheran theology states that the rapture occurs on the last day when Christ returns.

John....The WELS Lutheran church ( and most Lutherans) do not believe in a "Rapture" if a Lutheran pastor from one of the three camps (WELS, ELCA, or Missouri) teaches Rapture then that would not be good for them. Plus I did state that I am now a leader in the Church of God (TN). However the Rapture and End Times is new to me. I can see now that this was a terrible idea to post this question.

NOW for everyone else.

Allow me to elaborate here for a while if you all don't mind. You can preach rapture, tribulation, and end times all you want to the unchurched and they wont care. They can't handle the meat of the scripture. The purpose of the church as given by CHRIST was and is to go out into all the world preaching and teaching and making disciples. God's heart is for all to be saved. FIRST AND FOREMOST follow Christ. He told you to reach the lost. I am not saying in the least that you preach a Joel Olsteen message, or a feel good message. We need to get back to our roots as the church and use the sword of the Word to cut as well as HEAL.

It saddens me that we all argue about when it happens. However at the last day and when we all approach God the Father and account for our lives. Will He say "Well done good and faithful rapture student, teacher, and master." or rather "Well done good and faithful servant." I would rather He know that my heart was for him and that I sought the lost for His cause and never faltered in mt faith.

Go in peace, the Lord be with you all.

 

[TalwinStark]

I think it is wise to be vigilant because we are instructed to watch and pray by Lord Jesus Himself.The way He made it sound, His return was imminent.Since His return did not happen back then, the devil has a field day undermining what Lord Jesus taught. Lord Jesus taught this
Matt. 28:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Teach ALL things that He commanded them including about the end days. But it has been so long since He has been gone, people are falling for all kind of lies about it. I say pick a position and stay with it. There was a time when Lord Jesus said to a man "according to your faith be it unto you." I believe He is coming according to our faith.

Very well said, thank you