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John....The WELS Lutheran church ( and most Lutherans) do not believe in a "Rapture" if a Lutheran pastor from one of the three camps (WELS, ELCA, or Missouri) teaches Rapture then that would not be good for them. Plus I did state that I am now a leader in the Church of God (TN). However the Rapture and End Times is new to me. I can see now that this was a terrible idea to post this question.
That is incorrect. I attend a Missouri Synod Church and just two weeks ago my Pastor taught on the rapture in our bible class. Lutherans do believe in a rapture after all it is in the bible. The difference is that they believe this "catching away" occurs on the last day when Christ returns.
If I listen to what people tell me and not listen to the thing I read in the bible, I too would believe in a post-trib rapture. However, any reason why you don't post scriptures to prove your point? If every indication points to them as the same event, you shouldn't have a problem finding evidence in the bible.
Revelation 6:12 is a blood moon. In Matthew 24:29, the moon is not red
In Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal, the tribulation hasn't begun yet and does not begin till after the 144,000 are sealed --- which is also an event of the 6th Seal. The event of Matthew 24:29 is "immediately after the tribulation."
Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
So let's use a little common sense here with your argument. By declaring both events as the same, are you telling us God will seal the 144,000 for their protection "immediately after the tribulation?"
Was this what you meant by the "seriousness of the rapture?"
I got more pictures but even better, I got more evidences from the bible. You're welcome to post scriptures too.
Ezekiel 32:5-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
5 I will cover mountains and valleys with your rotting corpse. 6 I will pour out your blood until it spreads over the mountains and fills the streams. 7 When I destroy you, I will cover the sky and blot out the stars. The sun will hide behind the clouds, and the moon will give no light. 8 I will put out all the lights of heaven and plunge your world into darkness. I, the Sovereign Lord, have spoken.
Isaiah 13:9-11 Good News Translation (GNT)
9 The day of the Lord is coming—that cruel day of his fierce anger and fury. The earth will be made a wilderness, and every sinner will be destroyed. 10 Every star and every constellation will stop shining, the sun will be dark when it rises, and the moon will give no light. 11 The Lord says, “I will bring disaster on the earth and punish all wicked people for their sins. I will humble everyone who is proud and punish everyone who is arrogant and cruel.
Joel 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them.
You still think all this sounds like the blood moon of Revelation 6:12?
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If you have't figure out what the 6th seal is by now, just watch the video.
Revelation 6:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Joel 2:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
/QUOTE]
Psalm 3704 is dead on here: a red moon is visible else how would anyone know it is red? A darkened moon with the sun darkened would be invisible. One cannot see the moon unless sunlight is reflected to earth. What Jesus is telling us is that after the tribulation it will be TOTAL DARKNESS. This is a DIFFERENT sign that at the 6th seal.
In fact, Joel 2 shows us the sign of the 6th seal as the sign of the start of the Day of the Lord, while Joel 3 shows us the sign of darkness after Jesus returns to earth.
The 70th week of Daniel, or "the trib" as some call it will not start until the 7th seal, so the sign of the DAY at the 6th seal will certainly come before the 70th week begins. I believe the rapture of the church will be a moment before the 6th seal earthquake, and the earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. The earthquake will also be Paul's "sudden destruction" that will come a moment after the dead in Christ rise.
I stand Corrected. I was a WELS and I really dont know as much as what the Missouri teaches.
I stand Corrected. I was a WELS and I really dont know as much as what the Missouri teaches.
My brother attends a WELS church, I will ask him.
I'm sure that they do teach a "catching away" on the last day when Christ returns as well, after all it is in scripture.
I will also ask this question in the Lutheran forum.
Its always been presented as just Judgement day to me within that church. They also tended to stay away from Revelation.
Have you not read where Paul says that when the believers are raptured that Christ will bring the dead in Christ with Him? Those gathered when the rapture occurs will not be just those living on earth at that time.
I've read every book Paul wrote in the bible but I have yet to read anything you've written about the seriousness of the rapture. You sure have a lot to say about the rapture but yet to reveal any consistency with what the bible said.
Maybe posting a few scriptures might help?
...
In Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal, the tribulation hasn't begun yet and does not begin till after the 144,000 are sealed --- which is also an event of the 6th Seal. The event of Matthew 24:29 is "immediately after the tribulation."
Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
So let's use a little common sense here with your argument. By declaring both events as the same, are you telling us God will seal the 144,000 for their protection "immediately after the tribulation?"
Was this what you meant by the "seriousness of the rapture?"
...
We're told we won't know the day or time when the church will be caught up with Christ. All things happen in God's time so in my view being God said the rapture will happen, it doesn't matter to me when. I trust the Father to know when its time because he also told me that all things happen by his will.
Sure. A time of trials . But those in Christ , bearing the armor of God, have nothing to fear do they?We are told some general things - like antichrist will appear and things will get really bad before the rapture happens.
It only matters to us as individuals...as Paul clarified the actual timing: "But each one in his own order..." 1 Corinthians 15:23This thread is to discuss what is important. does it truly matter when the rapture happens? Or does it matter more what we do until then seeing as how the bible states that we will never know the time, day, month, or year?
THIS IS ONLY FOR DEBATE NOT CONVERTING.
If it gets to wild and people start hating on others beliefs then I will ask that he thread be taken down.
The object is to have a good healthy discussion with the KINGDOM and not single denominations.
I like to style myself as the Pentecostal Lutheran, I was raised Lutheran but now attend and am a leader at a Church of God (TN) church
Sure. A time of trials . But those in Christ , bearing the armor of God, have nothing to fear do they?
I think that we see people falling away from the faith already and well prior to the rapture. And those that would commit suicide during the time of trials, if that's what you are referring to when you say many will take the easy way out, if they are Christian are still in Gods mercy. As are I believe all who take their own life. It is he who would judge that act of God on their part when it is time.The potential of falling away is very real, and according to the bible, many will take the easy way out. Most in the western church are not prepared for what is coming.
Actually, I was alluding to taking the mark of the beast (or some similar compromise). The church will be here when antichrist arrives on the scene, and many will have tough choices to make - choices between life or death.I think that we see people falling away from the faith already and well prior to the rapture. And those that would commit suicide during the time of trials, if that's what you are referring to when you say many will take the easy way out, if they are Christian are still in Gods mercy. As are I believe all who take their own life. It is he who would judge that act of God on their part when it is time.
God be with anyone in that state of mind right now. And Gods mercy surround those who have already journeyed there.
I personally think the mark of the beast is already accomplished in the issuance of a serial number for all citizens in America; our social security number.
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