Rapture vs. Second Coming

[Guojing]

How many times does this need to be said? It's the same Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

That is not what Galatians 2:7-9 stated in the kjv

 

[Davy]

Jesus was preaching about the 2nd coming in Matthew 24, the 2nd coming is part of the prophetic program.

Paul, in 1 Thess 4, is talking about the mystery program of the Body of Christ who will be raptured before that, which was only revealed by the ascended Christ to him (Galatians 1:11-12)

I just proved, by the written Scripture, that Lord Jesus foretold 1st about the events Paul covered in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church. It proves that the 2nd coming is... the SAME event that Apostle Paul was preaching in 1 Thess.4.

And there is NO resurrection event scheduled prior to the "great tribulation" written of anywhere in God's Word. Paul included the resurrection event in 1 Thessalonians 4, showing he was speaking of the last day of this world.

 

[nolidad]

Nothing in the passage says Jesus takes us up into heaven. And everywhere that we read about Christ's return it is His return to here, terra firma.

So what is the more natural reading? In light of all else Scripture teaches, that Christ's return described in 1 Thessalonians 4 is what is as described elsewhere? Or is the more natural reading one where we insert foreign ideas into the Bible that aren't there at all?

-CryptoLutheran

Well I take the words of Jesus to the apostles and Paul:

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The Fathers house is in heaven. Jesus is preparing places for us in heaven. When those places are ready, He will come to take us where He is---heaven.

REv. 19 shows this as well:

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


The bride (the church) is in heaven for eh wedding! Before Jesus returns. the church cannot be on earth as that means not all church members have had their works judged and the wood, hay and stubble burned off! And this scene in heaven is before the Lord leaves heaven to make His 2nd coming to earth!

So when Paul speaks of teh church being caught up (snatched off) to meet the Lord in the air- this is the rapture and not the 2nd coming which requires Jesus to return to earth and He does not return here. to make this part of teh 2nd coming is to join varied verses together without any warrant and a useless exercise by God!

Why would the Lord if He is now coming to earth, rapture the church into the atmosphere when He shall land back on earth is mere moments?

 

[Guojing]

I just proved, by the written Scripture, that Lord Jesus foretold 1st about the events Paul covered in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church. It proves that the 2nd coming is... the SAME event that Apostle Paul was preaching in 1 Thess.4.

And there is NO resurrection event scheduled prior to the "great tribulation" written of anywhere in God's Word. Paul included the resurrection event in 1 Thessalonians 4, showing he was speaking of the last day of this world.

The mystery of the rapture was hidden in God, until Paul was saved. (Ephesians 3:9, 1 Cor 15:51)

So Jesus, being God, could not have revealed that mystery in Matthew 24.

 

[Davy]

The mystery of the rapture was hidden in God, until Paul was saved. (Ephesians 3:9, 1 Cor 15:51)

So Jesus, being God, could not have revealed that mystery in Matthew 24.

The 'mystery' that Apostle Paul spoke of, was in regard to The Gospel of Jesus Christ per Ephesians, which included the idea of The Gospel going to the Gentiles also. That has nothing to do with the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture theory that those like John Darby in 1830s Britain first preached in a Christian Church.

And since the 'mystery' Paul spoke of is ABOUT THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is SPECIFICALLY about that!

So it's silly to try and omit The Four Gospel Books from what Paul was preaching, and those preaching that attempted separation will be preaching 'another gospel' that is NO gospel, like Paul pointed to in Galatians.

 

[Guojing]

The 'mystery' that Apostle Paul spoke of, was in regard to The Gospel of Jesus Christ per Ephesians, which included the idea of The Gospel going to the Gentiles also. That has nothing to do with the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture theory that those like John Darby in 1830s Britain first preached in a Christian Church.

And since the 'mystery' Paul spoke of is ABOUT THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is SPECIFICALLY about that!

So it's silly to try and omit The Four Gospel Books from what Paul was preaching, and those preaching that attempted separation will be preaching 'another gospel' that is NO gospel, like Paul pointed to in Galatians.

Do you understand or care to understand, the difference between

Preaching Jesus Christ according to Prophecy? (Acts 3:21)

vs

Preaching Jesus Christ according to the Mystery? (Romans 16:25)

If its all the same to you, then we can end the discussion here.

 

[Davy]

Do you understand or care to understand, the difference between

Preaching Jesus Christ according to Prophecy? (Acts 3:21)

vs

Preaching Jesus Christ according to the Mystery? (Romans 16:25)

If its all the same to you, then we can end the discussion here.

Not so fast. I'm not going to let you get by that mockery attempt towards me.

The very Romans 16:25 Scripture you quote in support of your view has nothing to do with your ideas, but just the opposite... of what you say!

Rom 16:25-26
25 Now to Him That is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
KJV

Did you see that little phrase, "and by the scriptures of the prophets"? That means Apostle Paul preached The Gospel FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS ALSO!

So much for your Paul's Epistles only false doctrines of men.

 

[Guojing]

Not so fast. I'm not going to let you get by that mockery attempt towards me.

The very Romans 16:25 Scripture you quote in support of your view has nothing to do with your ideas, but just the opposite... of what you say!

Rom 16:25-26
25 Now to Him That is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
KJV

Did you see that little phrase, "and by the scriptures of the prophets"? That means Apostle Paul preached The Gospel FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS ALSO!

So much for your Paul's Epistles only false doctrines of men.

So you are basically saying there is no difference to you?

 

[Davy]

So you are basically saying there is no difference to you?

1 Peter 1:9-11
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
KJV

There's a doctrine of men called Hyper-Dispensationalism that was started by a small group of men back in the late 1800s that decided that Paul's Epistles only apply to Christ's Church. Those were also associated with preaching the false pre-trib rapture theory that John Darby in 1830s Britain had started preaching. Darby's brand of Dispensationalism seeded the idea that Israel as a nation is restored on earth when Jesus returns at the 2nd coming, but that the Church is raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation, and remains in Heaven to reign with Jesus after His 2nd coming. That theory then kept snowballing until it was decided that the majority of The Bible was actually written for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church, and even divisions within those groups started arguing over just when the Church of the New Testament began in Acts.

The real Truth of the matter is though, that The Gospel of Jesus Christ was first written of in the Old Testament Books. The Scripture above from 1 Peter 1 is about that. Events of Christ's crucifixion were first given by God through David in Psalms 22, even about those who would cast lots upon Jesus' clothing. The DIFFERENCE is that back in that time just what that crucifixion event signified was not yet known, and THAT is what Paul's idea of 'the mystery' is about, i.e., The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is about what??? The Gospel is about The Savior Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, being born of flesh woman to die on the cross as the Perfect Sacrifice for one and all time for sin, for those who believe. The Gospel is NOT about some Hyper-dispensationalist vain argument over when the Church began, and the vain idea that Paul only held knowledge that The Gospel would go also to the Gentiles.

Isa 49:6
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
KJV

And to argue that Paul was the first one to write about the mystery that The Gospel would also go to the Gentiles is ignorant also, since that was first written of in many Old Testament Scriptures beforehand. And that also is what the OT prophets inquired about, and were looking for in their day, but Jesus didn't come in their day.

 

[Guojing]

1 Peter 1:9-11
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
KJV

There's a doctrine of men called Hyper-Dispensationalism that was started by a small group of men back in the late 1800s that decided that Paul's Epistles only apply to Christ's Church. Those were also associated with preaching the false pre-trib rapture theory that John Darby in 1830s Britain had started preaching. Darby's brand of Dispensationalism seeded the idea that Israel as a nation is restored on earth when Jesus returns at the 2nd coming, but that the Church is raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation, and remains in Heaven to reign with Jesus after His 2nd coming. That theory then kept snowballing until it was decided that the majority of The Bible was actually written for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church, and even divisions within those groups started arguing over just when the Church of the New Testament began in Acts.

The real Truth of the matter is though, that The Gospel of Jesus Christ was first written of in the Old Testament Books. The Scripture above from 1 Peter 1 is about that. Events of Christ's crucifixion were first given by God through David in Psalms 22, even about those who would cast lots upon Jesus' clothing. The DIFFERENCE is that back in that time just what that crucifixion event signified was not yet known, and THAT is what Paul's idea of 'the mystery' is about, i.e., The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is about what??? The Gospel is about The Savior Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, being born of flesh woman to die on the cross as the Perfect Sacrifice for one and all time for sin, for those who believe. The Gospel is NOT about some Hyper-dispensationalist vain argument over when the Church began, and the vain idea that Paul only held knowledge that The Gospel would go also to the Gentiles.

Isa 49:6
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
KJV

And to argue that Paul was the first one to write about the mystery that The Gospel would also go to the Gentiles is ignorant also, since that was first written of in many Old Testament Scriptures beforehand. And that also is what the OT prophets inquired about, and were looking for in their day, but Jesus didn't come in their day.

You could have ended with a yes, but thanks for your explanation.

 

[Christ777]

If you want to hold the doctrine that the rapture and the 2nd coming is the same event, you are free to do that.

The 2nd coming naturally will be after the 1st coming. Paul calls it "The Coming of the Lord". This is when we will be "caught up in clouds" to MEET the Lord. (Not "to go to heaven with the Lord").

Let us not read things that are not written in Scripture. This is how we will be deceived.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When will we be caught up to meet the Lord? At His Coming! The 2nd coming, which follows His 1st coming.

 

[Guojing]

The 2nd coming naturally will be after the 1st coming. Paul calls it "The Coming of the Lord". This is when we will be "caught up in clouds" to MEET the Lord. (Not "to go to heaven with the Lord").

Let us not read things that are not written in Scripture. This is how we will be deceived.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When will we be caught up to meet the Lord? At His Coming! The 2nd coming, which follows His 1st coming.

His 1st coming was for the nation Israel, (2 Samuel 7:12 )

His 2nd coming will also be for the nation Israel. (James 5:7-8, 1 Peter 1:7, 1 John 2:28)

The rapture of the Body of Christ, in between the 2 comings, was a mystery hidden in God, until it was revealed to the apostle Paul, as you have quoted in the above passage in 1 Thess.

 

[Davy]

You could have ended with a yes, but thanks for your explanation.

But then me saying that would be allowing you to put your 'own' words into my mouth. I'm not going to allow that. What I showed is that I well know more about The Gospel of Jesus Christ per God's written Word than you do, so you should bow out of the conversation gracefully by agreeing and you saying yes.

 

[Guojing]

But then me saying that would be allowing you to put your 'own' words into my mouth. I'm not going to allow that. What I showed is that I well know more about The Gospel of Jesus Christ per God's written Word than you do, so you should bow out of the conversation gracefully by agreeing and you saying yes.

I asked you a yes/no question, so if your answer is a yes, just say yes.

 

[Davy]

I asked you a yes/no question, so if your answer is a yes, just say yes.

I see you still don't 'get it'. Your question violates common sense when it comes to God's Truth in His written Word.

 

[Davy]

The 2nd coming naturally will be after the 1st coming. Paul calls it "The Coming of the Lord". This is when we will be "caught up in clouds" to MEET the Lord. (Not "to go to heaven with the Lord").

Let us not read things that are not written in Scripture. This is how we will be deceived.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When will we be caught up to meet the Lord? At His Coming! The 2nd coming, which follows His 1st coming.

It's no use for many that are deceived on the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory. God even warned about that false doctrine in Ezekiel 13.

Apostle Paul tried to warn the brethren about it too in 2 Thessalonians 2, when he mentioned to not be deceived by those who say different even as by letter from the Apostles, showing their were false ones even in his day that were trying to corrupt the timing order of Christ's return and gathering of His Church.

Also in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul linked events of the "day of the Lord" with Jesus' coming, as Paul was actually continuing his discussion about Christ's coming in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter. In 1 Thess.5, he showed how the deceived are 'drunken in the night', and 'sleep in the night' using that as a metaphor for being deceived about the order of Christ's return. And that is exactly how those deceived on the false pre-trib rapture are; they are like spiritual drunks on a doctrine of men, listening to men instead of God in His Word.

 

[Guojing]

I see you still don't 'get it'. Your question violates common sense when it comes to God's Truth in His written Word.

I asked a question to clarify what you were thinking.

If you don't wish to clarify your thinking, I am fine too.

 

[Davy]

In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul taught that when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then the "sudden destruction" will come upon them. He said those sleep in the night, and are drunken in the night, metaphorically, meaning deceived about that time of the coming "day of the Lord".

The "day of the Lord" is the FINAL day of this present world, the END of the great tribulation, the DAY of Jesus' 2nd coming to gather His faithful Church. Just before that day, the deceived will be saying that, "Peace and safety" during the tribulation. That is what Paul was saying.

But what have the pre-trib rapture theory churches been preaching instead about the time of great tribulation? They instead falsely teach that the coming tribulation is going to be a time on earth of all out chaos and war. If you read books by their authors like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye, that's the kind of messages you get cast at you. Their purpose is to 'scare' brethren to want to escape the great tribulation instead of being prepared with The Gospel armor on to make a stand for Christ Jesus.

Jesus showed that when we hear of wars and rumors of wars, don't be troubled (Matthew 24:6). Why then are those on the pre-trib rapture theory drumming up trouble with rumors of war? They most often never quote what Lord Jesus said in the rest of that Matthew 24:6 verse, that the end is not yet, meaning the tribulation will not be a time of wars and rumors of war:

Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV

If the 'end' is not yet as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, then what kind of time will the end be like? Well, what's the opposite of a time of war and rumors of war?

It is a time of world peace, the "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying just prior to the "sudden destruction" upon them (1 Thess.5).

So what will the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned actually be like for the end? It will be a time of world peace with the greatest event of deception upon the whole world that has ever been. That deception will involve the coming of a fake-Christ that actually will be a supernatural one working great signs and wonders on earth to deceive the whole world into believing he is God (Matthew 24:23-26, which is singular in context). The unbelieving Jews will believe he is their Messiah of the Old Testament prophets. The rest of the world's religions will fall in line with that. ONLY those who stand in Jesus that are NOT deceived by that false one will that evil one see as a threat to his deception upon the world. This is why the world will hate God's two witnesses that will appear in Jerusalem during that period, and prophesy against the beast (Rev.11).

What will those deceived on a fly away pre-trib rapture think then? They are being prepared to flee to that pseudo-Christ when he comes. Already they are teaching their followers that they will be the first ones in the field 'TAKEN', when Lord Jesus warned at the end of Luke 17 that those first ones taken will be as a dead carcase where the fowls are gathered together (to feast on them, metaphorically of course; see Matthew 24:28 for the parallel to the last verse of Luke 17).

In Ezekiel 13, God said He is going to tear the deceived innocents out of the hand of those who hunt those souls to deceive them to make them fly. But what about those who preach that false doctrine intentionally to deceive God's people? God showed He is going to deal with them, and it won't be pretty.

 

[Christ777]

The rapture of the Body of Christ, in between the 2 comings, was a mystery hidden in God, until it was revealed to the apostle Paul, as you have quoted in the above passage in 1 Thess.

"We that remain alive between the two comings of the Lord" is not what is written.. Read it again please. Paul says that we that remain alive until THE COMING OF THE LORD, will be caught up to MEET *(greet, welcome) the Lord at HIS COMING.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The purpose of being caught up is to MEET the Lord at HIS COMING, not to go to heaven with the Lord, BETWEEN THE TWO COMINGS.

You are reading things that are not written.

 

[Guojing]

"We that remain alive between the two comings of the Lord" is not what is written.. Read it again please. Paul says that we that remain alive until THE COMING OF THE LORD, will be caught up to MEET *(greet, welcome) the Lord at HIS COMING.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The purpose of being caught up is to MEET the Lord at HIS COMING, not to go to heaven with the Lord, BETWEEN THE TWO COMINGS.

You are reading things that are not written.

The 2nd coming of the Lord was to save Israel during the Tribulation.

You believe that us in the Body of Christ will also undergo that same Tribulation?