Rapture vs. Second Coming

Jamdoc

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I am simply saying when Paul said it was a mystery, he meant it literally, that’s all.

We in the body of Christ are told to follow Paul, as he follows Christ
Mystery doesn't mean "it's not in the bible before Paul wrote it" Mystery means "this is poorly understood until Paul explained it"
 
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Guojing

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Mystery doesn't mean "it's not in the bible before Paul wrote it" Mystery means "this is poorly understood until Paul explained it"

If you want to hold the doctrine that the rapture and the 2nd coming is the same event, you are free to do that.
 
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Jamdoc

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If you want to hold the doctrine that the rapture and the 2nd coming is the same event, you are free to do that.
It is when you have a proper understanding of what the second coming is.
You probably see it as Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19.. which is an event later in the second coming, but the second coming starts with the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
Is that not a coming of the Lord, after the first coming? That would make it......
the second coming.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Is that on a horse, or in the clouds?
Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
On a horse, or in the clouds?
Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Note the signs are like those of Matthew 12. Is that Jesus on a white horse? Nope. Sitting on a throne, in the clouds.
Revelation 14:14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Not a white horse here either.
So, this second coming, is not Jesus on the white horse for Armageddon, but takes place earlier, and it's Jesus in the clouds, which is connected with gathering up the saints, followed by the wrath of God. This second coming, is FOR His saints. When He comes down all the way to the mount of olives on a white horse, He is WITH His saints.
The problem you've had is you've associated Matthew 24 with Revelation 19, when in fact, the two are entirely different events.
 
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BobRyan

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My point was that we hold doctrine even if Scripture did not specifically spell out the word.

Indeed we may choose labels for the same teaching in scripture where the label is not there but still we must be able to point to "the teaching" in scripture... label or not.

So we believed in the Trinity, even though the term Trinity is not a 'word' in scripture. this does not release us from the obligation of showing that teaching in scripture.

Same as the rapture of the Body of Christ. We can see it in 1 Thess 4:13-18, in Matt 24 in 2 Thess 2:1-4 etc --

Some say "Scripture calls that "the catching away" " -- which is still fine as it is the same teaching only with a different Word than we use commonly.

So given that the rapture is there - the next question is -- does it happen at the second coming? and in John 14:1-3 Jesus says it does.
IN Matthew 24 - Jesus says it does.
In 1 Thess 4;13-18 it does at that same loud trumpet that we see in Matt 24:31 that same loud trumpet as in 1 Thess 4.

If you want to hold the doctrine that the rapture and the 2nd coming is the same event, you are free to do that.

agreed.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not true , read Church Fathers

The ancient fathers taught that Christ would return in glory on the last day. They did not teach that Jesus would snatch the Church into heaven before His return.

And no, the passage from St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies that shows up on lots of rapture websites does not mention a rapture.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is not true. It was not dreamed up so recently. Even Paul believed in Rapture.

If Paul believed in "the rapture", then why doesn't he teach it? What the Apostle teaches is that Christ would return, in glory, and on that great day the dead would be raised, and we who are alive and remain will be caught together with them to meet the Lord in the air at His return.

Christ returns, the dead are raised, those who are alive join the resurrected dead in meeting the returning Lord Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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parousia70

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The gospel age is coming to a close.
The age of the “everlasting gospel” is coming to a close? How does something that the Bible infallibly testifies is “everlasting” (Revelation 14:6) come to a close?

That you believe and assert the Everlasting gospel will not only end, but will end in failure and retreat, goes against everything the apostles believed and taught about it.
 
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Guojing

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The ancient fathers taught that Christ would return in glory on the last day. They did not teach that Jesus would snatch the Church into heaven before His return.

And no, the passage from St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies that shows up on lots of rapture websites does not mention a rapture.

-CryptoLutheran

This is probably the reason

2 Tim 4:6
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

2 Timothy 1:15
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 
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Christ777

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I found this interesting and helpful. Below are distinctions between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. The first same number will denote what happens at the Rapture. The second same number will denote what happens at the Second Coming.

1 Rapture Translation of all believers to incorruptible body
1 Second Coming No translation at all
2 Translated saints go to heaven
2 Translated saints return to earth
3 Earth not judged
3 Earth judged and righteousness established
4 Imminent, any-moment, signless
4 Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation
5 Not in Old Testament
5 Predicted often in Old Testament
6 Believers only
6 Affects all men and women
7 Before the day of wrath
7 Concludes the day of wrath
8 No reference to Satan
8 Satan bound
9 Christ comes for His own
9 Christ comes with His own
10 Christ comes in the air
10 Christ comes to earth
11 Christ claims His bride
11 Christ comes with His bride
12 Only His own see Him
12 Every eye shall see Him
13 Tribulation begins
13 Millennial Kingdom begins

Blessings,

The above study contradicts Scripture. It is written that at THE COMING OF THE LORD we shall be caught up TO MEET the Lord.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain ("unto the coming of the Lord, verse 15) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Separating this meeting of The Lord at His coming, from the coming of our Lord is not Scriptural. This meeting will happen at the coming of The Lord.

We will be caught up to MEET the Lord. Nowhere it is written that we will go to Heaven with the Lord in 1 Thessalonians. 4:17.

We must be very careful not to read things that are not written in Scripture ("caught up to go to Heaven") or omit the things that are written ("we that remain unto the coming of The Lord, caught up in clouds to MEET the Lord").
 
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Davy

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Sorry but I don't believe the church (the bride of Christ) experiences the Tribulation or Great Tribulation.


He was undoubtedly talking about those who convert to Christianity during the period of Tribulation.

What you are talking about is a doctrine of man that was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830s Great Britain by John Darby. And he wasn't the originator of the doctrine, but others he associated with like Edward Morgan, and Edward Irving. Darby even later after having attended Edward Irving's church admitted some of the mysterious manifestations he saw there looked suspicious, and so turned away from that church. In the U.S., Cyrus Scofield, an ex-lawyer and politician, became one of the main expounders of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory via his Scofield Reference Bible.

And today, the theory is kept alive among the deceived who put more trust in things like Tim LaHaye's "Left-behind" books and movies than in what The Bible actually teaches about the true coming of Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Christ777

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many erroneously have called the Rapture "a return" of Jesus, that is incorrect.

Yet that is EXACTLY what 1 Thessalonians teaches. If we are still alive AT HIS COMING, we will be caught up to MEET the Lord, AT HIS COMING:


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain *(unto the coming of the Lord, verse 15) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And verse 17 says we will be caught up to MEET the Lord, not "to go to heaven with the Lord". Let us not be deceived by reading things that are NOT written. We must STICK TO WRITTEN SCRIPTURE always.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is probably the reason

2 Tim 4:6
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

2 Timothy 1:15
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

If the implication of what you're saying were true, then we wouldn't even have a Bible for you to quote from here.

Deny the validity of the historic Christian Church and you deny the validity of the Bible. You can't have the Bible without the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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nolidad

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Yet that is EXACTLY what 1 Thessalonians teaches. If we are still alive AT HIS COMING, we will be caught up to MEET the Lord, AT HIS COMING:


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain *(unto the coming of the Lord, verse 15) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And verse 17 says we will be caught up to MEET the Lord, not "to go to heaven with the Lord". Let us not be deceived by reading things that are NOT written. We must STICK TO WRITTEN SCRIPTURE always.


But this is not THE 2nd Coming as Jesus pronounced, For the 2nd Coming is Jesus returning to earth to establish his 1,000 year kingdom!

This "coming" simply says Jesus descends to the either atmosphere or space ( I hold to atmosphere) to gather the church!

Nothing in this verse says Jesus then keeps descending to earth and sets up His kingdom. that is forced upon this verse .

The reason we know we go to heaven is that Jesus promised that we will occupy rooms in HIs Fathers house that He is preparing for us! Those rooms are in heaven.
And in REv. 19 we see the church prepared to marry Jesus BEFORE JESUS returns in REv. 19
 
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ViaCrucis

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But this is not THE 2nd Coming as Jesus pronounced, For the 2nd Coming is Jesus returning to earth to establish his 1,000 year kingdom!

This "coming" simply says Jesus descends to the either atmosphere or space ( I hold to atmosphere) to gather the church!

Nothing in this verse says Jesus then keeps descending to earth and sets up His kingdom. that is forced upon this verse .

The reason we know we go to heaven is that Jesus promised that we will occupy rooms in HIs Fathers house that He is preparing for us! Those rooms are in heaven.
And in REv. 19 we see the church prepared to marry Jesus BEFORE JESUS returns in REv. 19

Nothing in the passage says Jesus takes us up into heaven. And everywhere that we read about Christ's return it is His return to here, terra firma.

So what is the more natural reading? In light of all else Scripture teaches, that Christ's return described in 1 Thessalonians 4 is what is as described elsewhere? Or is the more natural reading one where we insert foreign ideas into the Bible that aren't there at all?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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If the implication of what you're saying were true, then we wouldn't even have a Bible for you to quote from here.

Deny the validity of the historic Christian Church and you deny the validity of the Bible. You can't have the Bible without the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran

It’s about Paul being regarded now as preaching the same message as all the others.

so if no one else preached the mystery of the rapture, Paul could not have been preaching that.

that is the implication
 
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ViaCrucis

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It’s about Paul being regarded now as preaching the same message as all the others.

If Paul was preaching a different message then that would make him a false apostle and a false teacher. As he himself has said, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

So if Paul was preaching something other than the apostolic teaching which Christ Himself had given the apostles, if he or anyone--even a heavenly angel--says something other than what was laid down from the beginning, such a one is anathema, accursed.

I don't believe Paul was a false teacher. I believe Paul was a holy apostle, and preached in agreement with the apostolic teaching granted to him and the rest of the apostles from Jesus Christ.

If Paul preached something other than Peter, James, John, et al, then Paul has no place in Christianity. But Paul didn't preach something other than the rest, he preached the same thing which he himself had received, as he himself tells us in 1 Corinthians 15--that he delivered what he himself received from the beginning.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Davy

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It’s about Paul being regarded now as preaching the same message as all the others.

so if no one else preached the mystery of the rapture, Paul could not have been preaching that.

that is the implication

Thing is though, Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 preached the same thing that Apostle Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

Notice the highlighted verses in red. They are a direct parallel to what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about the rapture:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

KJV


The Matthew 24:31 version is about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him when He descends to earth:

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

KJV


The Mark 13:27 version is about those still alive that are "caught up" on that day of Christ's coming:

1 Thess 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

The Scripture evidence then is actually that Apostle Paul had to have gotten the events of 1 Thessalonians 4 from Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
 
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Guojing

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If Paul was preaching a different message then that would make him a false apostle and a false teacher. As he himself has said, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

So if Paul was preaching something other than the apostolic teaching which Christ Himself had given the apostles, if he or anyone--even a heavenly angel--says something other than what was laid down from the beginning, such a one is anathema, accursed.

I don't believe Paul was a false teacher. I believe Paul was a holy apostle, and preached in agreement with the apostolic teaching granted to him and the rest of the apostles from Jesus Christ.

If Paul preached something other than Peter, James, John, et al, then Paul has no place in Christianity. But Paul didn't preach something other than the rest, he preached the same thing which he himself had received, as he himself tells us in 1 Corinthians 15--that he delivered what he himself received from the beginning.

-CryptoLutheran

You have to understand the implication of what Galatians 2:7-9 (KJV), what the gospel of the uncircumcision and the gospel of the circumcision meant.
 
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Guojing

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Thing is though, Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 preached the same thing that Apostle Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

Notice the highlighted verses in red. They are a direct parallel to what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about the rapture:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

KJV


The Matthew 24:31 version is about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him when He descends to earth:

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

KJV


The Mark 13:27 version is about those still alive that are "caught up" on that day of Christ's coming:

1 Thess 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

The Scripture evidence then is actually that Apostle Paul had to have gotten the events of 1 Thessalonians 4 from Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Jesus was preaching about the 2nd coming in Matthew 24, the 2nd coming is part of the prophetic program.

Paul, in 1 Thess 4, is talking about the mystery program of the Body of Christ who will be raptured before that, which was only revealed by the ascended Christ to him (Galatians 1:11-12)
 
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ViaCrucis

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You have to understand the implication of what Galatians 2:7-9 (KJV), what the gospel of the uncircumcision and the gospel of the circumcision meant.

How many times does this need to be said? It's the same Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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