Rapture vs. Second Coming

[Jamdoc]

When you are talking 2 or more scripture passages, they can be found in Paul's epistles. The rapture is described in 1 Thess, as well as 1 Cor 15.

It's also described in Isaiah 26.

 

[nolidad]

Poppycock.

Christ only returns once and that has been the doctrine for nearly all of church history.

You are right! Jesus only returns once. but even a cursory look at the Rapture brings one to the knowledge that jesus descending to the clouds is not His return. when He comes back, He returns to the planet! At the rapture as spelled out, He never lands on the planet.

so even though many erroneously have called the Rapture "a return" of Jesus, that is incorrect.

 

[nolidad]

Christians have always been going through tribulation. Jesus said, “In this world you will have tribulation” (John 16:33). Jesus was clear to his disciples that they would be hated and endure the tribulation. Stop living a pipe dream. In the book of John Jesus is clear that the resurrection happens on the last day.

John 6:39-40

John 11:24

Well there is general tribulation which all believers who live godly have to endure, but tehn there is what we call THE tribulation, which in the OT is also called
70th week of Daniel
Time of Jacobs trouble
Time of Darkness
Time of clouda
among about another dozen or so descriptive titles.

Do not think that the word tribulation means the same thing in every instance. Jesus called the time of the 2nd half of the 70th week a time of Great Tribulation as the world has never seen or will see again!

 

[nolidad]

John 3:16 and Rom 10 :9-10 and Christ saying He is the only way to the Father. So he that "to stay under, i.e. Remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. Bear, have fortitude, persevere." shall be saved. Some are twisting "endure till the end" so say something it does not.

So were taking Matt 24 that was only said to the Jewish people. Was not said to one Christian.. no Church and applying it to us today? Something had already took place when He is sharing this and that has not happen yet. What do we see hear when Christ comes in the air? You don't find that in Matt at all. And no where In 1st 2nd Thes does it give a time frame. Please no offense but there are greater wiser people since Christ left searching on this and still no one knows PRE MID or POST. Why? Because its NOT written.

Paul.. how here or since Christ left has had a greater revelation then Paul had? Now if it was just Paul what wrote in Thes then we can go silly with this. But it was the sweet sweet Holy Spirit where He said through Paul "we which remain". Paul put himself in that.. that he will also see it. One can not ignore this.

Christ will come in the air again who is with Him? We will hear a shout a voice a trumpet of God <--this exactly like that has to happen. He comes in the air. The dead will rise and we will be changed and meet Him in the air and be with Him forever. And He said told the 12 where He was going and that He would come back for them/us and receive us unto Him self so WHERE key word.. where He is we will be. Where is He? He said it.. you KNOW where I go and how I go. He told them. I go back to my Fathers house. Thats where He will take us. That has to happen. He can not lie. That was not Christ talking it was the Father.

Matthew 24 is not soteriological at all. It is a warning and to give the widest bearing, to endure in not taking the mark, and remaining alive to the end they will be delivered. When Jesus returns, it is these survivors of the tribulation period that are gathered together from the four corners, stand before teh Lord and populate teh millenial kingdom.

 

[friend of]

WHY WOULD ANY CHRISTAIN BELIEVE IN, AND EVEN WORK FOR, THE DEFEAT OF THE GOSPEL IN THE GOSPEL AGE?

The gospel age is coming to a close.

 

[Devin Hammond]

Well there is general tribulation which all believers who live godly have to endure, but tehn there is what we call THE tribulation, which in the OT is also called
70th week of Daniel
Time of Jacobs trouble
Time of Darkness
Time of clouda
among about another dozen or so descriptive titles.

Do not think that the word tribulation means the same thing in every instance. Jesus called the time of the 2nd half of the 70th week a time of Great Tribulation as the world has never seen or will see again!

I already know this but it doesn’t mean that the disciples won’t have to endure the great tribulation. Jesus clearly warned in Matthew 24 that they would go through the great tribulation.

 

[Devin Hammond]

You are right! Jesus only returns once. but even a cursory look at the Rapture brings one to the knowledge that jesus descending to the clouds is not His return. when He comes back, He returns to the planet! At the rapture as spelled out, He never lands on the planet.

so even though many erroneously have called the Rapture "a return" of Jesus, that is incorrect.

Nope. The apostle Paul was clear that the rapture happens at the second coming when the dead are raised. John 6:39-40 clearly tells us that this will happen at the last day. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 also clearly tells us that this happens when the Lord “descends from heaven” so it is obvious that is describing his second coming when he descends to earth.

 

[nolidad]

I already know this but it doesn’t mean that the disciples won’t have to endure the great tribulation. Jesus clearly warned in Matthew 24 that they would go through the great tribulation.

No. Read more carefully. Jesus goes back and forth in teh synioptics as to teh troubles teh disciples would endure (up to the surrounding of Jerusalem with armies in 66-70 AD) and then the signs of th e times and then the events of the last days into the tribulation and His return.

When you look at Matt. 24 verse 9 to teh end cannot be in the time of the disples, for they had not gotten very far before their deaths so they (teh apostles) could not be hated of ALL nations.

Then look at Luke 21 vses 8-11 are the end times.

Verses 12-24 is the apostles time then through 36 is teh last days again.

 

[Devin Hammond]

No. Read more carefully. Jesus goes back and forth in teh synioptics as to teh troubles teh disciples would endure (up to the surrounding of Jerusalem with armies in 66-70 AD) and then the signs of th e times and then the events of the last days into the tribulation and His return.

When you look at Matt. 24 verse 9 to teh end cannot be in the time of the disples, for they had not gotten very far before their deaths so they (teh apostles) could not be hated of ALL nations.

Then look at Luke 21 vses 8-11 are the end times.

Verses 12-24 is the apostles time then through 36 is teh last days again.

Nope. Matthew 24 is clear that the disciples go through the great tribulation.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

I found this interesting and helpful. Below are distinctions between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. The first same number will denote what happens at the Rapture. The second same number will denote what happens at the Second Coming.

1 Rapture Translation of all believers to incorruptible body
1 Second Coming No translation at all
2 Translated saints go to heaven
2 Translated saints return to earth
3 Earth not judged
3 Earth judged and righteousness established
4 Imminent, any-moment, signless
4 Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation
5 Not in Old Testament
5 Predicted often in Old Testament
6 Believers only
6 Affects all men and women
7 Before the day of wrath
7 Concludes the day of wrath
8 No reference to Satan
8 Satan bound
9 Christ comes for His own
9 Christ comes with His own
10 Christ comes in the air
10 Christ comes to earth
11 Christ claims His bride
11 Christ comes with His bride
12 Only His own see Him
12 Every eye shall see Him
13 Tribulation begins
13 Millennial Kingdom begins

Blessings,

I prefer the order of events in 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Jesus descends with the souls of believers who have already died, whose souls are then reunited with their resurrected bodies. We who are alive when he comes are immediately transformed and rise with our deceased loved ones to meet him in the air in order to accompany him back to a new earth that he will make out this old decaying earth, where we will live with him forever. That's how this and other passages describe the one second coming of Jesus, which I eagerly await, since my wife just died. Therefore, 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is all the more valuable to me.

 

[Devin Hammond]

I prefer the order of events in 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Jesus descends with the souls of believers who have already died, whose souls are then reunited with their resurrected bodies. We who are alive when he comes are immediately transformed and rise with our deceased loved ones to meet him in the air in order to accompany him back to a new earth that he will make out this old decaying earth, where we will live with him forever. That's how this and other passages describe the one second coming of Jesus, which I eagerly await, since my wife just died. Therefore, 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is all the more valuable to me.

I agree with most of what you wrote accept I see no evidence that Jesus descends with souls.

 

[Guojing]

It's also described in Isaiah 26.

That is referring to what will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ.

The rapture of the body of Christ is not the 2nd coming.

Isaiah had no knowledge of the Body of Christ ever existing. He is writing purely to the nation Israel.

 

[Guojing]

agreed... 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matthew 24, 1 Cor 15, 2Thess 2 -- all describe the rapture at the 2nd coming of Christ as predicted by Christ in John 14 "I will come again" (second coming) "and receive yo to myself" (Rapture at the second coming " that where I am there you may be also" -- for it is when Christ takes the saints to His Father's house... in heaven.

The rapture of the Body of Christ takes place 7 years before the 2nd coming of Christ, so they are separate events.

In the rapture, Christ feet does not touch the earth but rather we will meet him in the air to be brought into the 3rd heaven.

The 7 years will be Jacob's trouble.

 

[BobRyan]

1.The rapture of the Body of Christ takes place 7 years before the 2nd coming of Christ, so they are separate events.

2.In the rapture, Christ feet does not touch the earth but rather we will meet him in the air to be brought into the 3rd heaven.

3.The 7 years will be Jacob's trouble.

1) I don't see a Bible text for 1.
2) That one is true but it happens at the 2nd coming as Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 point out.
3. I don't see a Bible text for 3.

 

[Jamdoc]

That is referring to what will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ.

The rapture of the body of Christ is not the 2nd coming.

Isaiah had no knowledge of the Body of Christ ever existing. He is writing purely to the nation Israel.

It's the same thing given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4.
The resurrection, and then rapture to hide from the wrath of God.
I get that you want to invent a new rapture that takes place before the persecution in the tribulation, but that idea is not supported by scripture and a rapture passage that takes place after the tribulations but before the wrath of God is supported by scripture, without creating a separate event.

 

[Guojing]

It's the same thing given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4.
The resurrection, and then rapture to hide from the wrath of God.
I get that you want to invent a new rapture that takes place before the persecution in the tribulation, but that idea is not supported by scripture and a rapture passage that takes place after the tribulations but before the wrath of God is supported by scripture, without creating a separate event.

I already stated that the rapture of the Body of Christ is a mystery that was hidden in God, until he revealed it to Paul.

The 2nd coming of Christ was known since the OT prophecy (Acts 3:19-21)

 

[Guojing]

1) I don't see a Bible text for 1.
2) That one is true but it happens at the 2nd coming as Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 point out.
3. I don't see a Bible text for 3.

Like the concept of the Trinity, there is no scripture that says specifically that the Body of Christ will be raptured.

You pierce it together from the various writings of Paul.

 

[BobRyan]

1.The rapture of the Body of Christ takes place 7 years before the 2nd coming of Christ, so they are separate events.

2.In the rapture, Christ feet does not touch the earth but rather we will meet him in the air to be brought into the 3rd heaven.

3.The 7 years will be Jacob's trouble.

1) I don't see a Bible text for 1.
2) That one is true but it happens at the 2nd coming as Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 point out.
3. I don't see a Bible text for 3.

Like the concept of the Trinity, there is no scripture that says specifically that the Body of Christ will be raptured.

You pierce it together from the various writings of Paul.

1. We don't get Trinity from Paul. Rather Deut 6:4 "one God" and Matthew 28:19 "three persons".
2. The fact that those two texts are used for the Trinity is not a kind of "proof" that almost anything else we might wish were in the bible, but can't be found is also supportable.

John is pretty helpful on the Trinity - but for various reasons I stick to the two above as we see in Deut 6:4 and Matthew 28:19

1 John 5
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. -- NKJV

 

[Guojing]

1) I don't see a Bible text for 1.
2) That one is true but it happens at the 2nd coming as Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 point out.
3. I don't see a Bible text for 3.



1. We don't get Trinity from Paul. Rather Deut 6:4 "one God" and Matthew 28:19 "three persons".
2. The fact that those two texts are used for the Trinity is not a kind of "proof" that almost anything else we might wish were in the bible, but can't be found is also supportable.

John is pretty helpful on the Trinity - but for various reasons I stick to the two above as we see in Deut 6:4 and Matthew 28:19

1 John 5
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. -- NKJV

My point was that we hold doctrine even if Scripture did not specifically spell out the word.

So we believed in the Trinity, even though the term Trinity is not spelt out in the Bible.

Same as the rapture of the Body of Christ. Scripture calls that "the catching away" I believed.

 

[Jamdoc]

I already stated that the rapture of the Body of Christ is a mystery that was hidden in God, until he revealed it to Paul.

The 2nd coming of Christ was known since the OT prophecy (Acts 3:19-21)

at this point I think you're just in fairytale land. The other scriptures are inconvenient to your doctrine so you just choose to ignore them.

Look, Paul wouldn't be in the bible if he was writing stuff that wasn't ever in scripture before.
The bereans believed what Paul preached because they searched the scriptures and found what Paul taught to be true. Nothing Paul taught was exclusive to his epistles. They are all found in other scripture. The Bereans would have thrown Paul out of the city if he said things that weren't also in other scripture.
We're Christians, not Paulians.

 

[Guojing]

at this point I think you're just in fairytale land. The other scriptures are inconvenient to your doctrine so you just choose to ignore them.

Look, Paul wouldn't be in the bible if he was writing stuff that wasn't ever in scripture before.
The bereans believed what Paul preached because they searched the scriptures and found what Paul taught to be true. Nothing Paul taught was exclusive to his epistles. They are all found in other scripture. The Bereans would have thrown Paul out of the city if he said things that weren't also in other scripture.
We're Christians, not Paulians.

I am simply saying when Paul said it was a mystery, he meant it literally, that’s all.

We in the body of Christ are told to follow Paul, as he follows Christ