Rapture timing

[Luke17:37]

It is only nutty to the nuts. For those who are clear-headed, it is the Blessed Hope of the believer. The worst thing a person can do is pay attention to the propaganda being spouted against a *secret Rapture*. Why would it not be secret from the unbelieving and the ungodly? They will have their turn for UNIVERSAL MOURNING at the Second Coming of Christ.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30).

I think you are deceived by the propaganda being spouted that there is a secret rapture of the Church prior to the Tribulation. The post-Tribulation gathering isn't secret. Nothing in the Bible predicts a secret rapture of the Church.

 

[Luke17:37]

Actually 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 has been greatly misinterpreted and misunderstood. A proper exegesis of that chapter will show that those who were misleading Christians by claiming that the Day of the LORD had already come were forgetting that the Day of the LORD has nothing in common with the Rapture.

No, it means what it says. The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him, the day of Christ, and that Day all refer to the same day - the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He will gather His Church.

 

[greenguzzi]

There is great deception coming first. We don't need a complicated timeline.

The great deception is already here. Has been for a long time.

 

[greenguzzi]

That is what rapture means:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G138
Citing in TDNT: 1:472, 80


3 is the definition Paul is using it as. Same as here:

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

But that's not what you said. You said "raptured which means to lift up into the air". In your (correctly quoted) definitions above there is no mention of "air", the use of "up" is figurative, and there is no mention of "lift". So pretty much every word of your original personal definition is wrong.
In fact the correct usage in 1Thess 4:17 is closer to number 2 above "to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly". Which is completely different from your original - incorrect - definition.
This might seem pedantic, but your personal definition puts quite the wrong spin on the passage.

 

[greenguzzi]

If you are "no-trib because you are amillennial, then you do not even believe in a rapture at all.

I am an amillennialist, and I do believe in a rapture. Why do you say that I don't?

 

[greenguzzi]

I was pressed for time when I posted an answer to those who were disparaging the study of prophecy, so I did not go back and locate the posts I was referring, so I could quote them, but here they are:




I am fully aware that most scholars say that prophecy is a fourth of the Bible. But in saying this, they neglect the book of Psalms, which our Lord Jesus himself clearly identified as prophetic. And when the Psalms are counted as prophetic, the prophetic books of the Bible are:

Psalms
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
Revelation

These, along with the prophetic parts of the gospels and the epistles of Paul, bulk a full third of the Bible. And as The Revelation itself calls itself prophecy, there is zero merit in the claim that it is not prophecy because it is apocalyptic.

So it is indeed correct that anyone who claims that the study of prophecy is a waste of time is claiming that a full third of everything God has said to us has no value, at least to us.

This is contrary to passages such as 2 Peter 1:19:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

Prophecy does not equal a timeline, that's not what prophecy is for.

By the way, when I said:

I do sometimes hope I can convince others to become amillennialist though. It's so much simpler than all this timeline nonsense. Leaves much more time for real ministry.

I was not disparaging the study of prophecy, I was disparaging your misuse of prophecy.

 

[greenguzzi]

Biblewriter, I believe you are making too many absolutes out of something which is at best highly disputed amongst lovers of the Lord... for the last 2000 years.

I must admit, I think your logic and reasoning about a pre-trib "rapture" is extremely flimsy. 1 Thess 4 is not clear enough to build a doctrine on or use as a cornerstone. Having said that, I don't believe that my beliefs (Amill, partial preterism, etc) are bulletproof either; it's just that I think they have less logical holes than the pre-trib/Mill beliefs.

Regarding Greenguzzi's statement that Revelation is not prophecy, I think this is reasonably true. It's apocalyptic literature. We must remember that apocalyptic does NOT mean "of the end times". It's just what it has come to mean in reasonably modern times. Also - - see that Greenguzzi is not from the USA. Neither am I. Notice that there are very few people on here who believe in the Pre-mill and "rapture" ideas who are not from the USA. Something to think about.

Hey Hazrus, I missed this post of yours earlier.
Yes, the fact that Revelation is apocalyptic literature was the point I was alluding to; thanks for picking up on it. This fact is quite important, but seeming lost on some. I'd love to discuss what this means; but I suspect it would be lost in a futile attempt to construct a prediction of future events, if this was attempted here.

Your point about "not from the USA" is interesting. As I read threads on this forum I am becoming increasingly of the opinion that US Christianity is somewhat different from Rest-of-the-World Christianity. However Christianity does manifest differently in different cultures. The main difference with US Christianity is that many of it's members don't seem to be aware that the rest of us are here.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[greenguzzi]

Why do you think that?

Easy:

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’and will deceive many.
Already happening.
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Already happening.
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Already happening.
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. Already happening.
All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Etc..

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Luke17:37]

Easy:

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’and will deceive many.
Already happening.
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Already happening.
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Already happening.
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. Already happening.
All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Etc..

Just because we've had these things doesn't mean there isn't a future, more severe fulfillment. That's what I believe. These birth pains are also like the seals (1, 2, 3, 4, 6).

None of the false Christs so far had the influence of the beast of the sea, whom everyone not belonging to Jesus will worship.

 

[greenguzzi]

None of the false Christs so far had the influence of the beast of the sea, whom everyone not belonging to Jesus will worship.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Luke17:37]

Are you sure about that?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

None of these people were effective at convincing the whole world to worship them except believers.

 

[Luke17:37]

Agreed. The Rapture in fact is imminent according to Scripture.

Such as?

 

[ScottA]

I don't see many people in the streets prophesying, or hear
about the dreams of old men. In those days is after the tribulation
and during the millennial reign, not now. That is also when the new
covenant begins. And both concern Israel and those connected to
her, not a separate entity, or church.

That, of course, is the general understanding/misunderstanding.

However, we have been living during the time of the pouring out of the spirit of God since Christ ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit: These are the times of the gentiles, of the new covenant, and of the new Man, Jesus Christ, living in and through us.

And now you have seen and heard what before you had been missing.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[tranquil]

I would call the entire seven years the Tribulation, although the last half is the hardest time. I believe the 144,000 sealed in Revelation stay on the earth (that's the point of the seal) and most likely survive the Tribulation, becoming among the elect who are gathered in the sky upon Jesus' return. I believe the False Prophet (beast of the earth) comes halfway through and that he is instrumental in slaughtering most of the Church.

Or put another way: if you are a believer, and you are killed - you 'meet the Lord in the air/ spirit'. If you are a believer and you survive, by definition you will be a witness for Christ, a 'messenger' for Him, one of the symbolic 144,000. If you survive the entire 1260 days, you have passed all the hurdles - this is the 'come up here' at the end of the 2nd woe. And presumably, the church will be united at this point. This is the 'dry bones' being 'resurrected' of Ezekiel 37. The false prophet takes over all people that aren't within the church. The wheat and the tares are being bundled at the same time. The mark of the beast is the bundling of the tares (tares looking like wheat Christians).

 

[tranquil]

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Here is something fun for everyone who believes in a vacuum cleaner (Left Behind pre-trib) rapture to think about.

Hopefully, no one disputes these verses:
2 Thess 2

9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
​

The coming of the lawless one is with all power and false signs and wonders. The lawless one comes and makes the 7 year covenant. The whisking away rapture supposedly happens.

So, at the same exact time the supposed 'whisked away' rapture is occurring, Satan's false signs and wonders are also occurring. Or maybe, just maybe, the non-Biblical 'whisked away' rapture is one and the same as part of Satan's false signs and wonders...

 

[Luke17:37]

Or put another way: if you are a believer, and you are killed - you 'meet the Lord in the air/ spirit'. If you are a believer and you survive, by definition you will be a witness for Christ, a 'messenger' for Him, one of the symbolic 144,000. If you survive the entire 1260 days, you have passed all the hurdles - this is the 'come up here' at the end of the 2nd woe. And presumably, the church will be united at this point. This is the 'dry bones' being 'resurrected' of Ezekiel 37. The false prophet takes over all people that aren't within the church. The wheat and the tares are being bundled at the same time. The mark of the beast is the bundling of the tares (tares looking like wheat Christians).

That is completely different from how I understand it.

The "rapture" or gathering is when the surviving elect (Church) meet the Lord (and the resurrected Church) in the air, at Jesus's post-tribulation coming (Matthew 24:29-31). If you are killed in the Tribulation, you would be among those Jesus brings with Him and resurrects them (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) at Jesus' coming.

I believe the ones who "come up here," are the two witnesses who were raised to life... not the whole living Church who never died.

I believe the dry bones of Ezekiel 37 is referring to the saving of a considerable number of Israelites before the second coming of Christ. Zechariah 13:8-9 says 2/3 will die and 1/3 will believe and be refined. Romans 11 also talks about the future revival of the house of Jacob.