Well, theres a good place to start. Show me (in scripture) why the church and Israel are separate.
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rapture question
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Well, theres a good place to start. Show me (in scripture) why the church and Israel are separate.
Maranatha27
Senior Member
Ever since the Fourth Century, when the Church adopted Amillennialism and began to divorce itself from its Jewish heritage, the prevalent Christian view concerning the Jews has been that "God washed His hands of them" in the First Century when He poured out His wrath on Jerusalem and allowed the Jews to be dispersed worldwide. An accompanying doctrine that developed over the years is called "replacement theology." It is the idea that God replaced the Jews with the Church, that the Church has become the "new Israel," and that the Church has inherited all the blessings that were previously promised to the Jews. Needless to say, these ideas have served as a source of much of the anti-Semitism that has characterized the Church for the past 1600 years.
The idea that God has "washed His hands of the Jews" is thoroughly unbiblical. In Jeremiah 31:36 God says the Jewish people will continue to be "a nation before Me forever." He emphasizes the point by saying they will continue as a special nation of people until the fixed order of the universe ceases, or until all the heavens and ocean depths have been measured (Jeremiah 31:36-37). In Isaiah 49:14-16 God uses a different metaphor to emphasize His devotion to Israel. He says that He has the nation inscribed on the palms of His hands!
There are three chapters in the New Testament that strongly emphasize the continuing love of God for the Jews. These three chapters have been despised and ignored (or spiritualized into meaninglessness) throughout much of Christian history. The chapters are Romans 9-11. In Romans 9:4 Paul writes that God still has covenants with the Jews which He promises to fulfill. He then makes it clear that the Jews who will receive the blessings are a great remnant that will be saved in the end times (Romans 9:27).
Paul even specifically addresses the question of whether or not God has rejected the Jewish people. He asks, "God has not rejected His people has He?" (Romans 11:1). For 1600 years the Church has answered this question with an unqualified, "Yes!" But Paul answers it by saying, "May it never be! . . . God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew" (Romans 11:1-2).
But what about their disobedience? What about their rejection of God as king of their nation and Jesus as king of their hearts? Hasn't their disobedience nullified the promises of God? Again, Paul specifically deals with this issue. He asks, "What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?" (Romans 3:3). And again, for centuries the Church as responded, "Yes!" But not Paul. He responds by saying, "May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar" (Romans 3:4).
The idea that God has "washed His hands of the Jews" is thoroughly unbiblical. In Jeremiah 31:36 God says the Jewish people will continue to be "a nation before Me forever." He emphasizes the point by saying they will continue as a special nation of people until the fixed order of the universe ceases, or until all the heavens and ocean depths have been measured (Jeremiah 31:36-37). In Isaiah 49:14-16 God uses a different metaphor to emphasize His devotion to Israel. He says that He has the nation inscribed on the palms of His hands!
There are three chapters in the New Testament that strongly emphasize the continuing love of God for the Jews. These three chapters have been despised and ignored (or spiritualized into meaninglessness) throughout much of Christian history. The chapters are Romans 9-11. In Romans 9:4 Paul writes that God still has covenants with the Jews which He promises to fulfill. He then makes it clear that the Jews who will receive the blessings are a great remnant that will be saved in the end times (Romans 9:27).
Paul even specifically addresses the question of whether or not God has rejected the Jewish people. He asks, "God has not rejected His people has He?" (Romans 11:1). For 1600 years the Church has answered this question with an unqualified, "Yes!" But Paul answers it by saying, "May it never be! . . . God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew" (Romans 11:1-2).
But what about their disobedience? What about their rejection of God as king of their nation and Jesus as king of their hearts? Hasn't their disobedience nullified the promises of God? Again, Paul specifically deals with this issue. He asks, "What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?" (Romans 3:3). And again, for centuries the Church as responded, "Yes!" But not Paul. He responds by saying, "May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar" (Romans 3:4).
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Do ya think its wise to put him on an ignore list Zeke? He does believe in Christ as we do. If i was to put everyone who disagrees with me on any certain points on an ignore list, i might have to start talkin to myself.
Hey WhiningWall, aint you gettin hungry? Yeah, i suppose WW. Lets go to the fridge! Nah, im havin to much fun here talkin bout Gods Word
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O
ondaball
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No-one in past 2 pages has quoted Matt 24:30-42 or 1 Corinthians 5:51-58 or 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 - all early in my blog, as are several lyrics I wrote incorporating them
See Creative Writing @ Writers Guild part orf Hobbies Forum too
Jesus compared His return to both the days of Noah & of Lot
Both times, warnings were given @ judgement to come
Both times, believers were removed to safety before judgements fell
"NOW is the acceptable time..
"NOW is the day of salvation"
"TODAY, if you hear God's voice (as His Word is faithfully preached), don't harden your hearts"
See Joel 3, Zechariah 14 & Revelation 16 @ www.BibleGateway.org
I'll post 'em at my blog Monday am, DV
Ian
Must go
Ian
See Creative Writing @ Writers Guild part orf Hobbies Forum too
Jesus compared His return to both the days of Noah & of Lot
Both times, warnings were given @ judgement to come
Both times, believers were removed to safety before judgements fell
"NOW is the acceptable time..
"NOW is the day of salvation"
"TODAY, if you hear God's voice (as His Word is faithfully preached), don't harden your hearts"
See Joel 3, Zechariah 14 & Revelation 16 @ www.BibleGateway.org
I'll post 'em at my blog Monday am, DV
Ian
Must go
Ian
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
Day of the Lord starts after the Rapture.. 1 thes 5:2 , 2 thes 2:1-10 ends with 2 peter 3:10 .. Rapture is the day of Christ.. 1 thes 4:16-18
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So you say, immediatly after the rapture, the "day of the Lord" starts. So you think there is no trib period at all. Are you pre-trib? Are you the only pre-tribber who believes there will be no trib period?
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
1 thes 5:2 is the beginning of the Great TRib and the day of the Lord
2 peter 3:10-12 is the end of the day of the Lord ... begining of the day of God
2 peter 3:10-12 is the end of the day of the Lord ... begining of the day of God
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Hi A brother in Christ
I erased all that i wrote. No sense in posting my words.
MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Right AFTER the tribulation period the sun shall be darkened and the moon wont be shining.
ISAIAH 13 [6] Howl ye; for THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [7] Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: [8] And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. [9] BEHOLD, THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. [10] For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN HIS GOING FORTH, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE. [11] And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Before the Day of the Lord The sun darkened and the moon shall not give light.
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Brother Jason
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In Noah's day and also Lot's day, God pulled them out at the last minute, right before He wiped everyone out, I would say this will be true when the fat lady sings for this earth and the elements melt with a fervent heat.
I don't see a 7 year trib period in scripture, I believe things are going to escalate till God says enough then the debate will be over(along with everything else on this earth!)
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HisdaughterJen
Well-Known Member
And what if the tribulation has been the past 2000 years? Then what remains is the final years of judgment and wrath.
Want proof?
Compare Exodus 19 to Rev 7. Exodus 19 is a type of the rapture/gathering to God, complete with trumpet and all.
Rev 7 shows a multitude standing before the throne (prior to judgment and wrath) having come out of a great tribulation and having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
In history, at what time can a person "wash their robes in the blood of Christ" or put their faith in Christ/be clean because of the blood of Christ?...during the past 2000 years or 2 days on God's calendar.
Then look at Exodus 19:
Exd 19:10 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. (2 days) Have them wash their clothes
Exd 19:11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
Exd 19:12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
Exd 19:13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.”
Exd 19:14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes.
Exd 19:15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”
Exd 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
Exd 19:17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Exd 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently,
Exd 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.
How do we know that the multitude in Rev 7 is there prior to judgment and wrath?
#1. They are seen in heaven as the 144,000 are sealed on earth. The 144,000 are sealed on earth prior to the blowing of the 1st trumpet of the 7th seal.
#2. Luke 21:36 Jesus said:
Luk 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
The multitude seen in heaven are doing just that-
Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
#3. The white robes. Rev 6
When are the white robes given? In the 5th seal. Prior to the 6th seal which is when the earthquake, sun/moon/stars darken.
You see?
EDIT to add: We, as believers in Christ, are set apart or consecrated to God because of Christ's sacrifice and our belief in Him. Just like Moses consecrated the people in Exodus 19 and they washed their robes for two days before God appeared on the morning of the third day, so too, we are consecrated by Jesus and wash our robes in His blood for two days (millenia) before the morning of the third day (millenium) when Jesus will appear and we will go up to meet him in the air.
Tts 2:12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self‑controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
Tts 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Tts 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Psa 50:5 “Gather to me my consecrated ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”
And here's a resurrection and gathering prior to wrath:
Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.
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HisdaughterJen
Well-Known Member
Exd 19:10 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. (2 days) Have them wash their clothes
Exd 19:11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
Exd 19:12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
Exd 19:13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.”
Exd 19:14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes.
Exd 19:15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”
Exd 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
Exd 19:17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Exd 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently,
Exd 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.
It is a type of the gathering to God. It is Jesus (Moses in the type) that consecrated us. It is Jesus (Moses in the type)that leads us. What are we expecting? A trumpet blast and then Jesus leads us to God after we have "washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb" for two days on God's calendar. We are expecting God to come down on the morning of the 3rd day.
Everything that is written in the Bible has meaning. When Jesus said he'd rise on the 3rd day, when the Good Samaritan (Jesus) gives the innkeeper (the church) two days wages and then says, "I'll come again and repay you" (he expected to be gone two days), there's a reason for everything said in the Word...sometimes more than one meaning.
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