A Brother In Christ said in post #139:
1 john 4:20 vs luke 14:26
what are we to do love or hate!
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he
is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he
hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not
seen?" (1 John 4:20).
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and
mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and
sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my
disciple" (Luke 14:26).
Luke 14:26 means hate only in the sense of love less.
We must be willing to forsake even our families if
they would require us to cease to serve Christ, or to
serve Him less than He is calling us to serve Him; we
cannot put our families before Christ:
"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not
worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more
than me is not worthy of me" (Matthew 10:37).
If we compromise our service to Christ for anything,
no matter whether it be our families, our favorite
hobbies, or our desire to make money, we are trying
to serve two masters at the same time, and this
cannot be done:
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will
hate the one, and love the other; or else he will
hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot
serve God and mammon" (Luke 16:13).
We must seek first that which we know to be the
highest and best, being willing to forsake everything
else for its sake:
"Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his
righteousness; and all these things shall be added
unto you" (Matthew 6:33).
"Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that
he hath, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:33).
"There is no man that hath left house, or brethren,
or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or
children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time,
houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and
children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the
world to come eternal life" (Mark 10:29-30).
This means that when we leave everything for Christ
and His gospel, and become His disciples, we join the
worldwide family of His disciples, who will receive
us into their houses as we travel around in ministry,
and who will be to us as family. But note that we
also gain persecutions, for when we are truly serving
Christ, persecution is assured:
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus
shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12).
"Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not
only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his
sake" (Philippians 1:29).
"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we
deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12).
Regarding your reference to 1 John 4:20, that means
that we cannot emotionally hate not only our literal
brothers, but also our spiritual brothers in the
church; we cannot wish them or do them harm in any
way, whether physically or even verbally. Indeed,
we must not have any ill feelings toward anyone, or
fight verbally or physically with anyone, no matter
whether they're brothers or not, and even if they
are viciously attacking us verbally or physically:
"Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn
to him the other also" (Matthew 5:39).
"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you"
(Matthew 5:44).
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour" (Romans
13:10).
"Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse
not" (Romans 12:14).
"Speak evil of no man ... be no brawlers, but gentle,
shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves
also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived,
serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice
and envy, hateful, and hating one another" (Titus
3:2-3).
"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and
clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you,
with all malice: And be ye kind one to another,
tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God
for Christ's sake hath forgiven you" (Ephesians
4:31-32).
"But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your
hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is
earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and
strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure,
then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated,
full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality,
and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of
righteousness is sown in peace of them that make
peace" (James 3:14-18).
"The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be
gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In
meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the
acknowledging of the truth; And that they may
recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,
who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Timothy
2:24-26).
zeke37 said in post #140:
they [the 24 elders] are heavenly beings, so most
likely they ARE angels....men become angels....
The 24 elders very well could be angels, but they
don't have to have been men previously, even though
the church will become equal to the angels at the
resurrection:
"They are equal unto the angels; and are the children
of God, being the children of the resurrection"
(Luke 20:36).
This doesn't require that the church will cease to be
men at the resurrection, for Jesus did not cease to
be a man at His resurrection:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).
"This man, because he continueth ever, hath an
unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also
to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by
him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for
them" (Hebrews 7:24-25).
Indeed Jesus' same human body that died on the cross
was resurrected; that's why the tomb was empty. And
his resurrection body is not some ethereal ghostly
body, but made of human flesh and bones:
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and
bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus
spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And
while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered,
he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they
gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an
honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them"
(Luke 24:39-43).
Our resurrection bodies will be just as physical and
human as Jesus' resurrection body is, and just as
glorious, for like His resurrection body, our
resurrection bodies will no longer be subject to
disease, aging, pain, and death, like our current
"vile" bodies are:
"We look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who
shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned
like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:20-21).
"Neither can they die any more ... being the children
of the resurrection" (Luke 20:36).
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,
nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away. And he that
sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things
new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are
true and faithful" (Revelation 21:4-5).
So we have a great hope in the resurrection, the hope
of eternal physical life, eternal physical salvation,
in an eternal resurrection body:
"The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain
together until now. And not only they, but ourselves
also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even
we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we
are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not
hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope
for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we
with patience wait for it" (Romans 8:22-25).
"In hope of eternal life ...
that blessed hope ...
the hope of eternal life"
(Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7).
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath
begotten us again unto a lively hope by the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an
inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that
fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are
kept by the power of God through faith unto
salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"
(1 Peter 1:3-5).
"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober,
and hope to the end for the grace that is to be
brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"
(1 Peter 1:13).
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all
be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ
the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at
his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23).
zeke37 said in post #140:
but as for them [the 24 elders] representing the
church, they are mentioned in Rev4, and have
crowns...and they cast them aside....
I see this as the same crowns that the dead in
Christ and the elect have given to them at His
return...
all believers are promised crowns..there are many
crowns described; Glory, righteousness, life,
imperishable, joy/rejoicing, and in Rev4-gold....!!!
so they represent to me, the 12 tribes of Israel and
the 12 disciples of Christ...
which symbolizes the 12 tribes(including the
descendants of the scattered 10 northern tribes) and
those righteous under Christ...
The fact that the 24 elders have crowns doesn't
require that they are the church, or even humans, for
even non-human entities can wear crowns:
"Behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and
ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads"
(Revelation 12:3).
No one would say, "The dragon must be the church,
for his seven heads with crowns match the seven
deacons of the church in Acts 6:3, 21:8 and the
seven churches in Revelation 1:4."
And when we read:
"The locusts were like unto horses prepared unto
battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns
like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men"
(Revelation 9:7).
No one would say, "The locusts must be the church,
for the references to crowns and horses match those
of the church in Revelation 3:11 and Revelation
19:14."
Just as the dragon and the locusts don't have to be
the church because they wear crowns, so the 24 elders
don't have to be the church because they wear crowns.
The church won't get its crowns until the return of
Christ:
"When the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall
receive a crown" (1 Peter 5:4).
And Christ doesn't return until after the
tribulation:
"After the tribulation ... then shall appear the
sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall
all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And he shall send his
angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:29-31).
"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).
That's why even after the sixth vial, at the very
end of the tribulation, Jesus tells those in the
church who are still on the earth at that time:
"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that
watcheth" (Revelation 16:15).
Jesus doesn't return until Revelation 19, after the
vials of Revelation 16. So the church has to suffer
through the entire tribulation before it receives its
crowns, just as the first-century church in Smyrna
was told that it had to suffer through a first-
century tribulation before it received its crowns:
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer:
behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison,
that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation
ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will
give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
Even believers not alive during the first-century
tribulation or the endtime tribulation can be tried
before receiving their crowns:
"When he is tried, he shall receive the crown of
life" (James 1:12).
