rapture question

[WailingWall]

What is the order of events for pre tribbers? Is this right?

1st resurrection (those dead in Christ) and rapture
7yr period of tribulation
Day of the Lord
1000 yr period of rest
2nd resurrection (the rest of the dead) after the 1000 yrs-great white throne

 

[Biblewriter]

What is the order of events for pre tribbers? Is this right?

1st resurrection (those dead in Christ) and rapture
7yr period of tribulation
Day of the Lord
1000 yr period of rest
2nd resurrection (the rest of the dead) after the 1000 yrs-great white throne

We can debate till the cows come home about whether or not the pre-tribbers are right.

But it cannot be debated that this indeed what they teach.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, I'd agree that's accurate.

I often think about the chronology of end times events. In my opinion, it seems that we are out of here about the time of the invasion of Israel, prior to or just as the sun/moon/stars darken/earthquake. I see the giving of white robes in the 5th seal (Rev 6) as symbolic of the changing of our bodies that occurs at the catching away. Then, these white-robed individuals are seen in heaven just as the 144,000 of Israel are sealed on earth prior to judgment and wrath. (Rev 7)

 

[zeke37]

Pre Trib

1st resurrection (those dead in Christ) and rapture
7yr period of tribulation
Day of the Lord
1000 yr period of rest
2nd resurrection (the rest of the dead) after the 1000 yrs-great white throne



Post trib

7yr period of tribulation
Day of the Lord
...which is also..
1st resurrection (those dead in Christ) and rapture
1000 yr period of rest
2nd resurrection (the rest of the dead) after the 1000 yrs-great white throne

the dead in Christ return to the earth with Him, as a great promise...a great hope....a hope that we through Christ have and that those without Him, do not have...we live forever with Him, here on earth....what an amazing promise...Paradise on this earth, forever...after it has been renewed of course...

and that is the foundation of 1Thes 4:13 and on...

when Christ comes back, He brings with Him the dead in Christ...those are IMO the ones with the robes(Jen)...




so is there other scripture that speaks of the dead returning with Christ? If there is, it may point to when that time is...whether pre or post...personally, I do not see the point of Christ bringing the dead back with Him if they are not going to stick around...

in His service
c

 

[WailingWall]

What is the order of events for pre tribbers? Is this right?

1st resurrection (those dead in Christ) and rapture
7yr period of tribulation
Day of the Lord
1000 yr period of rest
2nd resurrection (the rest of the dead) after the 1000 yrs-great white throne

So this is correct. This is what the pre tribbers believe. The above is the order of events. No variatians.

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is the first resurrection, when the dead in Christ shall be raised. The pre tribbers claim its before the trib period.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here again we see the first resurrection (thats what the scripture actually says). But what we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

Am i right, accorrding to scripture?

And if scripture is right, there is no pre trib rapture.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

So this is correct. This is what the pre tribbers believe. The above is the order of events. No variatians.

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is the first resurrection, when the dead in Christ shall be raised. The pre tribbers claim its before the trib period.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here again we see the first resurrection (thats what the scripture actually says). But what we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

Am i right, accorrding to scripture?

And if scripture is right, there is no pre trib rapture.

Well, it seems there's a bunch of resurrections involved in the "first resurrection".

Remember, there were people resurrected when Christ was raised. So go through and think of all the resurrections mentioned...

1. Christ
2. People at Christ's resurrection
3. People at glorious appearing
4. two witnesses
5. People at Christ's physical return
(All of the above are the first resurrection)
6. People at end of millenium for Great White throne judgment.

There's a lot more evidence for a gathering of God's people (which includes a resurrection) prior to judgement and wrath:

Isaiah 26:19-21
Joel 2
Psalm 50
Exodus 19
Rev 6 & 7

 

[WailingWall]

Yes, I'd agree that's accurate.

This was the answer you gave to my 1st question. Are you now changing your mind? To make the rapture "fit", must you do a song and dance?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

This was the answer you gave to my 1st question. Are you now changing your mind? To make the rapture "fit", must you do a song and dance?

Well, no song, no dance...

If we want to understand what the "first resurrection" is, then what are all the other resurrections prior to the "first resurrection"?

1. Christ
2. Those who came out of their tombs at Christ's resurrection
3. Those who are resurrected and caught up at his glorious appearing prior to wrath
4. The two witnesses who are resurrected and caught up during judgment and wrath
5. Those who are raised (but not caught up) at His physical return after wrath?

Pick one.

 

[WailingWall]

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown. Yup, the very last trumpet that shall be blown. The "LAST" trumpet. The LAST.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown prior to the tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.

Its time for the Tennesse 2 step.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown. Yup, the very last trumpet that shall be blown. The "LAST" trumpet. The LAST.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown prior to the tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.

Its time for the Tennesse 2 step.

Ok, I'll dance with you.

Compare Matthew 24 to Revelation 6 & 7 as well as Exodus 19.

According to Matthew 24, the tribulation is before the earthquake/sun/moon/stars which is seal #6 of Rev 6.

According to Rev 6, the 6th seal is the beginning of wrath which we are not appointed to suffer (1 Thess 5:9). What was the 5th seal? Giving of white robes. Then before the 7th seal, those white-robed individuals are seen in heaven standing before the Lamb having escaped all that is about to happen. Funny, Jesus said in Luke 21:36 to pray that you may be found worthy to escape all that is about to happen and stand before the Son of Man. Those white robed people are doing just that!

Now, look at Exodus 19. This is a type of what is going to happen. God will come down on the morning of the third day at the sound of a trumpet that gets louder and louder. Jesus will lead us to the Father. What are those people told to do? Wash their clothes for two days (today and tomorrow) and then God will meet with them. What are the people in Rev 7 doing? They are standing before God having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb! How long have people been able to do that? TWO days (on God's calendar)!

So, those white-robed individuals in Rev 7 are seen in heaven, standing before the throne and the Lamb as the 144,000 of Israel are sealed on EARTH before the first trumpet has even blown! CHrist doesn't physically return until the judgment and wrath are over!

You see?

 

[WailingWall]

Gotta know what song im dansing to.

Riders on the storm?

I can feel it coming in the air tonight, oh Lord?

In the summer time..

Pick one

 

[zeke37]

Well, no song, no dance...

If we want to understand what the "first resurrection" is, then what are all the other resurrections prior to the "first resurrection"?

1. Christ
2. Those who came out of their tombs at Christ's resurrection
3. Those who are resurrected and caught up at his glorious appearing prior to wrath
4. The two witnesses who are resurrected and caught up during judgment and wrath
5. Those who are raised (but not caught up) at His physical return after wrath?

Pick one.

3,4 and 5 happen at the same time and is when Christ returns to the earth...and is called the first resurrection.

 

[zeke37]

Hello WailingWall,

it does not seem to matter what scripture you show "them"....

their belief is deep rooted...

they change the word apostasy to mean, a departure from the planet....instead of a departure from the true faith

they insist that the white robed individuals are the pre trib raptured, instead of the dead in Christ awaiting their return...

they insist that the last trump, is in phases....

they insist that the last trump, the trump of God and the 7th trump are not the same.

and many more...

just a heads up....good luck...


in His service
c

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Now i don't believe in the 7 year tribulation that you refer to. I believe there will be a time of tribulation when the mark of the beast is implemented but what you guys refer to as the 7 year tribulation of Revelation 12 I believe is actually past and is actually 1260 years corresponding to the 42 months corresponding to the time, times and half a time.

 

[WailingWall]

Hello WailingWall,
it does not seem to matter what scripture you show "them"....
their belief is deep rooted...

What bothers me most is once you prove there is no rapture using scripture, they all come up with the very own theory why the scriptures are not true. You'd think if they were to be somewhat believable they would come up with one theory they would all stick to.

 

[WailingWall]

Now i don't believe in the 7 year tribulation that you refer to. quote]

If you were talkin to me PK i wanna say i never said i believed there would be a 7 yr period of trib. I was only askin if the pre-tribbers believed. As i understand it, the way they came up with the 7yrs is they took a passage of scripture out of Daniel and chopped it up and stuck part of the passage out in the end time days. Its really amussing to believe that anyone could believe such a thing but there are so many people that are afraid of the trib period, theyll believe what they must to escape it.

 

[zeke37]

Revelation 9:1-12

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.




G3
Ἀβαδδών
Abaddōn
ab-ad-dohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H11]; a destroying angel: - Abaddon.


G623
Ἀπολλύων
Apolluōn
ap-ol-loo'-ohn
Active participle of G622; a destroyer (that is, Satan): - Apollyon.


this teaches me that the end times last hour/week......is actually 5 months...

compare Joel2, for the locust army...

in His service
c

 

[garry2]

Hello WailingWall,

it does not seem to matter what scripture you show "them"....

their belief is deep rooted...

they change the word apostasy to mean, a departure from the planet....instead of a departure from the true faith

the original word for apostasy does mean a departure, and faith is not mentioned in these verses.

they insist that the white robed individuals are the pre trib raptured, instead of the dead in Christ awaiting their return...

the dead in Christ do not have bodies until they return with Christ and are joined with their new Glorified bodies in the clouds.

they insist that the last trump, is in phases....

they insist that the last trump, the trump of God and the 7th trump are not the same.

and many more...

just a heads up....good luck...


in His service
c

why good luck, I for one am not looking to be converted to another doctrine, post tribbers continually try doing that, but not convincing.

 

[Maranatha27]

As a person that believes the pretribulation rapture. I believe that the Church and Israel are seperate groups. The ressurection of the Church takes place at the time Christ appears in the clouds. Old testement saints are ressurected after the terrible time of the Tribulation.

Daniel 12:1-3 In the preceding chapter Daniel was informed about the Great Tribulation and the world war that will come at its conclusion. Naturaly, he would be concerned about his people Israel. In answer to this natural question concerning the destiny of his people, he was informed, "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such has not happened from the beggining of the nations untill then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book- will be delivered" (v.1)

According to other prophecies, many Jews and Gentiles will turn to Christ in the period after the Rapture but will be martyrs. In Rev. 7:1-8 the Apostle John was informed that 144,000 of the people of Israel, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes enumerated, would be sealed to go through the Tribulation unscathed. In 14:1 they are seen on Mount Zion intact.

In 7:9-17 many others will be martyred from every country and race. They are pictured in heaven triumphant, but they have gone to heaven from the Great Tribulation because they were put to death by the world ruler who will demand that every one worship him at the pain of death (cf. Rev. 13:15). Daniel was assured that while individuals may perish, the nation of Israel as such will be protected and continue to exist through the Great Tribulation and enter the millennial kingdom when Jesus Christ, their Messiah, comes in His second coming.

Daniel was informed that many who die will be resurrected, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlating contempt" Daniel 12:2
This prophecy concerns the fact of resurrection. In reconstruction of the order of resurrection, it is clear that all will not be resurrected at the same time. Also mentioned in relation to Christs resurrection was the token resurrection of a small number of saints (Matt. 27:51-53) At the Rapture of the church at the end of the present age, members of the body of Christ, Christians who died after Pentecost, will be raised out from among the dead. A special resurrection was also revealed concerning the two witnesses (Rev 11:3-13) who will be raise and caught up to heaven after a the conclusion of their witness (v.12) All of these resurrections precede the resurrection at the time of the Second Coming (Daniel 12:2-3). The resurection of some to shame and everlatin contempt (v.2) will not occur until the end of the Millennim as it is made clear in Revelation 20:4-6,11-15. The resurrections here extended to all the saved of the Old Testament, whether Jew or Gentiles, all who were not ressurected at the time of the Rapture. They will be given resurrection life and new bodies and will enter the millenium kingdom as ressurected people. Tribulation saints will also be raised (v.4) At the begining of the Millennium the only ones remaining in their graves will be the unsaved.

The time of resurrection will be a time of reward as well. Daniel was told, "Those who are wise and shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever (Dan. 12:3). Just those who are raptured will be judged and rewarded at thr Judgement Seat of Christ, so all other saints who have died will be resurrected at the time of the Second Coming and, in like manner, be rewarded for what they have done for God.

 

[WailingWall]

why good luck, I for one am not looking to be converted to another doctrine, post tribbers continually try doing that, but not convincing.

Hey Garry2
Im not really sure about what post tribbers think. Could you fill me in? Do they think they flit off to heaven (in the twinkling of an eye) or off to somewhere on this earth? Just curious.