RAPTURE!! OR LEFT BEHIND????

[iamlamad]

I see nothing about any rapture. I have given you the verses that speak plainly that the saved will all go up to the clouds to be with Jesus, and wicked are left dead until after the 1000 years. It doesn't get any plainer. You want to throw in 7 years tribulation during the 1000 years where there is none.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Where are those that are taken is the question. They know where the left are---one is taken---taken where?
Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Read it---over and over---read it.
Those TAKEN WILL BE WITH THE EAGLES--THEIR DEAD BODIES WILL BE FOOLD FOR BIRDS.
It is not the left behind that are bodies for the eagles, but the taken.

Read just before this:
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Who was taken away during the flood? The lost were. Noah and his family knew the flood was coming, they were in the ark. They went nowhere, they stayed in the ark. The lost were destroyed--taken away in the flood.

What do you do: give the end times scriptures a "once over" and think you have everything nailed? Well, you don't.

First off: word to the wise about forming doctrines: find the most complete coverage of a subject, and form your doctrines there. Then fill in missing pieces from others scriptures that are not so complete.

Next, form doctrine from later scriptures versus earlier scriptures. God is a self revealing God and over time has revealed more and more.

Using these guidlines, one should go to Revelation to form doctrine, and fill in missing pieces from other scriptures, such as the Olivet Discourse.

One problem: John did not see the rapture, so did not write of it. So what? John saw the raptured church in heaven just after the rapture. That is enough to know WHEN the rapture will be in relation to other end time events.

Any end time doctrine on the rapture MUST fit both Paul's information on the rapture plus what Revelation has to say. Think about this: the rapture will catch up billions of people: around 50 generations of believers! But at the rapture, many end times "experts" believe that God will also catch up all the children under the age where God would hold them accountable. It is going to be such a HUGE crowd, John wrote of them "too large to number!" The rapture group is going to be BY FAR the largest group mentioned anywhere in Revelation.

With that said, WHERE in Revelation did John see this crowd too large to number? It is found in chapter 7. Remember that I said the rapture will be a moment before the 6th seal events? That is just before chapter 7. In other words, I have a second witness that the rapture comes before the 6th seal.

Next, we have to find where the "trib" or 70th week is found in Revelation as a comparison. With study, we find that the 7th trumpet sounds to mark the exact midpoint of the week, and the 7th vial ends the week (it is done). It just makes good sense then that the 7th seal opens the week. In fact, this is what Jesus, the head of the church said to me.

One day, I was just minding my own business, reading in Daniel about the abomination happening in the "midst" of the week. The moment my eyes and mind got to the word "Midst," the Holy Spirit spoke to me saying, "you could find the exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." I don't mean I was having a dream. I was wide awake. I don't mean I ate too much pizza: I had none. I heard words. It was the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to me. My spirit man answered Him:
"How would I find that?"

The Holy Spirit answered: "Whenever I mentioned an event that will start at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week, I always mentioned the 3 1/2 years. When you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

At this time, I already knew there were five different mentions of the 3 1/2 years: two as 1260 days, two as 42 months, and one as time, times and half of time. So I understood immediately what He was saying. Then, almost as an afterthought, He added, "In fact, you could find the entire 70th week, 'clearly marked.'" When He said this, I knew in my Spirit that all three points would use the same marker, so when I found what was marking the midpoint, I would easily find the beginning and end of the 70th week.

If the rapture is just before the 6th seal - and it certainly will be - and if the 70th week or "trib" does not begin until the 7th seal, then one thing is made perfectly clear: the rapture will be PRETRIB.

The pretrib rapture is already written down, in black and white: all we need do is read and understand the scriptures. John SAW (with his own two eyes) the raptured church safely IN HEAVEN - and he saw them there before he ever wrote about the start of the 70th week.

Did you ever wonder, if the rapture was at Jesus Armageddon coming, how in the world any believer would make it to heaven for the marriage and supper? They would all MISS the marriage!

Did you ever stop to think: if the rapture came at Jesus Armageddon coming, there would then be no "sheep" (Believers in natural bodies) at the sheep and goat judgment? Why? Because they would all have resurrection bodies then!

Did you ever wonder what "one taken and one left" was talking about? It is the parable of the tares! It is the wicked taken at that time. I believe angels will snatch the spirits right out of the bodies, cast the spirits into hell, and the body will fall dead. It is certainly not talking about the rapture! No bodies will be left - for our bodies will be changed and go up.

You have to really study these things to become approved.

 

[iamlamad]

A LOT of imagination here. Sorry. The only church of Christ is those of his chosen ones. Except the 144,000, none has been chosen yet. There is NO separate '70th week' of Daniel as spread everywhere. Just a guessing game. The white horse of Rev 6 is the same white horse in Rev 19, i.e. Christ, both riders have a crown(s).

Why do you think God gave sooooo many date setting oriented data if it is not to set dates?

What I present follows the Scriptures for the Bible prophecies, as showed in the video below, match history to the least details, UNCHALLENGED in terms of logic, accuracy and chronology until now:

...

But, no need to fight over your beliefs that I respect. The truth will be revealed very soon with FACTS, as showed in this video.

The church if Jesus Christ is made up of all who are born again (ever hear of regeneration?) around the world. They come from many denominations, many different people groups, and many different church fellowships around the world. Note, this is the truth of the written world of God.

Except the 144,000, none has been chosen yet. Sorry, but the 144,000 are JEWS and HEBREWS, not From the Gentile church of today. You are mistaken about them.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

All born again people are "chosen." And that before the world was created.

There is NO separate '70th week' of Daniel as spread everywhere. Just because you can't find it does not mean it is not real.

Notice how Daniel wrote it in chapter 9:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:...

Count them up: 7 + 62 = 69 weeks accounted for in verse 25.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

Here is that 70th week you imagine does not exist. Notice also how Daniel separated it from the previous 69. Why? Because 2000 years will be between the 69 and the 70.

Just so you can know, if you wish to: the 70th week is delineated in Revelation by the 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. And it is all in our future.

The white horse of Rev 6 is the same white horse in Rev 19, i.e. Christ, both riders have a crown(s).
WHAT? Billions of saints will end up with crowns! You have to have more to go one than that! Did you not notice that it was Jesus opening that first seal? Did you just skip over chapter 5, where John sets the TIMING for this first seal? Note carefully John saw Jesus suddenly appear as the lamb having been slain, and He immediately sends the Holy Spirit down. That sets the time to 32 AD or there abouts. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the Gospel.

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil trying to stop the gospel.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.

I am challenging this "information." Your video is so far out in "left field" it has left the ball park completely! You actually believe this stuff? Please, don't hold your breath for any of it to come to pass!

 

[mmksparbud]

What do you do: give the end times scriptures a "once over" and think you have everything nailed? Well, you don't.

First off: word to the wise about forming doctrines: find the most complete coverage of a subject, and form your doctrines there. Then fill in missing pieces from others scriptures that are not so complete.

Next, form doctrine from later scriptures versus earlier scriptures. God is a self revealing God and over time has revealed more and more.

Using these guidlines, one should go to Revelation to form doctrine, and fill in missing pieces from other scriptures, such as the Olivet Discourse.

One problem: John did not see the rapture, so did not write of it. So what? John saw the raptured church in heaven just after the rapture. That is enough to know WHEN the rapture will be in relation to other end time events.

Any end time doctrine on the rapture MUST fit both Paul's information on the rapture plus what Revelation has to say. Think about this: the rapture will catch up billions of people: around 50 generations of believers! But at the rapture, many end times "experts" believe that God will also catch up all the children under the age where God would hold them accountable. It is going to be such a HUGE crowd, John wrote of them "too large to number!" The rapture group is going to be BY FAR the largest group mentioned anywhere in Revelation.

With that said, WHERE in Revelation did John see this crowd too large to number? It is found in chapter 7. Remember that I said the rapture will be a moment before the 6th seal events? That is just before chapter 7. In other words, I have a second witness that the rapture comes before the 6th seal.

Next, we have to find where the "trib" or 70th week is found in Revelation as a comparison. With study, we find that the 7th trumpet sounds to mark the exact midpoint of the week, and the 7th vial ends the week (it is done). It just makes good sense then that the 7th seal opens the week. In fact, this is what Jesus, the head of the church said to me.

One day, I was just minding my own business, reading in Daniel about the abomination happening in the "midst" of the week. The moment my eyes and mind got to the word "Midst," the Holy Spirit spoke to me saying, "you could find the exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." I don't mean I was having a dream. I was wide awake. I don't mean I ate too much pizza: I had none. I heard words. It was the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to me. My spirit man answered Him:
"How would I find that?"

The Holy Spirit answered: "Whenever I mentioned an event that will start at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week, I always mentioned the 3 1/2 years. When you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

At this time, I already knew there were five different mentions of the 3 1/2 years: two as 1260 days, two as 42 months, and one as time, times and half of time. So I understood immediately what He was saying. Then, almost as an afterthought, He added, "In fact, you could find the entire 70th week, 'clearly marked.'" When He said this, I knew in my Spirit that all three points would use the same marker, so when I found what was marking the midpoint, I would easily find the beginning and end of the 70th week.

If the rapture is just before the 6th seal - and it certainly will be - and if the 70th week or "trib" does not begin until the 7th seal, then one thing is made perfectly clear: the rapture will be PRETRIB.

The pretrib rapture is already written down, in black and white: all we need do is read and understand the scriptures. John SAW (with his own two eyes) the raptured church safely IN HEAVEN - and he saw them there before he ever wrote about the start of the 70th week.

Did you ever wonder, if the rapture was at Jesus Armageddon coming, how in the world any believer would make it to heaven for the marriage and supper? They would all MISS the marriage!

Did you ever stop to think: if the rapture came at Jesus Armageddon coming, there would then be no "sheep" (Believers in natural bodies) at the sheep and goat judgment? Why? Because they would all have resurrection bodies then!

Did you ever wonder what "one taken and one left" was talking about? It is the parable of the tares! It is the wicked taken at that time. I believe angels will snatch the spirits right out of the bodies, cast the spirits into hell, and the body will fall dead. It is certainly not talking about the rapture! No bodies will be left - for our bodies will be changed and go up.

You have to really study these things to become approved.

No one us left alive on this earth. I gave you the verses, you wish to make something that is not there out of them. Daniel and Rev should be used together. The bible is used to interpret the bible. It was Jesus that was cut off midweek. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years and it is He that ended the sacrifices. If you do not have that right, nothing else will be. You are listening to yourself, not the word of God.

 

[keras]

John saw the raptured church in heaven just after the rapture.

This is totally wrong.
Heaven is not mentioned in Revelation 7, but the Land is. It will be in Jerusalem that the vast multitude of Christians will gather.
They will be the ones who have endured the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

Acts 14:22 We are warned, that to enter the Kingdom of God, we must undergo many hardships.

Jeremiah 9:7 I shall refine My people; how else should I deal with them?

Romans 8:17 If we are His heirs, then we must share His suffering, if we are also to share in His glory.

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take them [My people] out of this world, but that You keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 3:10 ...keep you from the hour of trial.

John 17:15....keep them from the evil one.

Jeremiah 30:7 ...Jacobs trouble – but he shall be saved out of it.

All the four highlighted above are translated from the same Greek words –tereo ek. Tereo ek means ; to be kept from falling - not giving way under pressure and temptation, not physical rescue or protection. The prayer of Jesus in John 17:15, failed if He meant for His disciples to be physically protected, as they were all martyred. [except John]


Luke 21:34-36 Be prepared, do not let worldly cares catch you unawares, when the Great Day comes, for that day will come to everyone the world over. Be alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming, so you will be able to stand in the Lord’s presence. REBible
[Note that some Bibles say ‘escape all these things’, but the correct translation is ‘to pass safely through’.]

1 Peter 4:12-19 Dear friends, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has come to test you, for the time has come for the judgement to begin and it begins with God’s own household. So if you suffer according to His will, you must continue to trust Him, while still doing good and your Maker will not fail you.
[This passage applies to all the Church saints who have been and are, persecuted for His sake. But it more specifically applies to us, as we await the multi prophesied fire judgement that will test the faith of everyone.] 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

1 Corinthians 10:13 So far you have faced no trial beyond human endurance, God keeps faith and will not let you be tested beyond your powers, but when the test comes, He will provide a way out and enable you to endure it.
[We will all be tested, there is no ‘rapture’ out of it, but those who trust Him and call on his Name, will be helped through this terrible time. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21]

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 There is indeed no single gift that you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to reveal Himself. He will keep you firm until the end, without reproach until the Day of His Return. God Himself has called you to share in the life of His Son, and God keeps faith.

Jeremiah 25:29 I shall first punish Jerusalem, [Judah] so do you think you can be exempt? No, you will not escape judgement, for I am bringing punishment upon all the inhabitants of the earth. This is the Word of the Lord.

Revelation 13:10b ....this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God’s people. R

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I see nothing about any rapture.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Read it---over and over---read it.
Those TAKEN WILL BE WITH THE EAGLES--THEIR DEAD BODIES WILL BE FOOLD FOR BIRDS.
It is not the left behind that are bodies for the eagles, but the taken.
Read just before this:
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Who was taken away during the flood? The lost were. Noah and his family knew the flood was coming, they were in the ark. They went nowhere, they stayed in the ark. The lost were destroyed--taken away in the flood.

Would make for a great thread.....oh wait, there is one already.....

"WHERE THE BODY is, there the EAGLES be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17-- and Revelation
Nov 2, 2018

[If you post, please take time to vote in the POLL. Thanks.]

I noticed 2 different Greek words for "bodies" and "carcasses/corpse" in the NT.

Verses with "bodies" and "carcasses" in them..........

Matthew uses G4430

4430. ptoma pto'-mah from the alternate of 4098; a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):--dead body, carcase, corpse.

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the corpse<4430> may be, there shall the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.

It is used in 3 other verses......
The body of John the Baptist in Mark 6, and bodies of 2 witnesses in Revelation 11.

Mark 6:
24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
27 And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
29 And when is disciples heard of it, they came
and took up His corpse, G4430 and laid it in a tomb.

Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

Revelation 11:
8 And their dead corpses G4430 shall lie in the street<4113> of the great City, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their corpses G4430 three days and an half, and shall not suffer their corpses G4430 to be put in a tomb<3418>

Luke uses G4983

4983. soma so'-mah from 4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:--bodily, body, slave

Luke 17:37
And they answering say to him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them, 'Where the body<4983> is, there will the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.'

Which is used in 1 verse of Revelation concerning the destruction of the "Great City/Harlot/Queen"

Revelation 18:13
and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense,
and wine, and oil,
and fine flour, and wheat,
and cattle, and sheep,
and of horses, and of chariots,
and of bodies<4983> and souls<5590> of men.

Seems it is a tie right now..........

Is Luke 17:37 the prophecy of 70ad desruction of Jerusalem?

1. 
   Yes it is
   4 vote(s)
   36.4%
2. No it's not
   4 vote(s)
   36.4%
3. It certainly could be
   1 vote(s)
   9.1%
4. Never thought of it that way
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
5. I don't know
   2 vote(s)
   18.2%
6. Other
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

 

[iamlamad]

No one us left alive on this earth. I gave you the verses, you wish to make something that is not there out of them. Daniel and Rev should be used together. The bible is used to interpret the bible. It was Jesus that was cut off midweek. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years and it is He that ended the sacrifices. If you do not have that right, nothing else will be. You are listening to yourself, not the word of God.

You can believe what you wish; but you will find out soon enough how wrong your theory is. Good luck with it. I hope it works out for you.

 

[mmksparbud]

You can believe what you wish; but you will find out soon enough how wrong your theory is. Good luck with it. I hope it works out for you.

Well, it is not a salvation issue---however, for those who think they will be raptured away from the tribulation, and then find themselves smack in the middle of it, they may loose faith and question their salvation, for those of us who believe we will be sealed by God (as Rev. says.) and we know and expect the tribulation it would be a pleasant surprise to not go through it. We will all be sealed at the end---the anti-Christ has His seal, and God has His seal on us and the tribulation is all about worship---who will or will not worship the beast. What matters is to stay faithful to what God says and not what any man says.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, it is not a salvation issue---however, for those who think they will be raptured away from the tribulation, and then find themselves smack in the middle of it, they may loose faith and question their salvation, for those of us who believe we will be sealed by God (as Rev. says.) and we know and expect the tribulation it would be a pleasant surprise to not go through it. We will all be sealed at the end---the anti-Christ has His seal, and God has His seal on us and the tribulation is all about worship---who will or will not worship the beast. What matters is to stay faithful to what God says and not what any man says.

It might become a salvation issue: It appears from scripture that Jesus is coming pretrib only for those who are expecting Him. Since you expect to go through the trib, you will certainly not expect Him to come first.

If Hebrews 9:27 is true, and of course it is, Jesus will be coming only for those who are looking for Him. All others will be left behind. That is, if I read this 27th verse right.

For those left behind, Satan's goal will be to get them to take the mark to avoid loosing their head. Thirst can be a very powerful motivator!

Then there is this: everything we ever get from heaven comes from faith. For those expecting Him, our faith is strong that He is coming pretrib for us. For those who imagine He comes after the trib, they have no faith for Him to come before.
Just saying....

Forget the seal: it is only for the 144,000 Hebrews. It is NOT for any Gentile Christians. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit the moment we are born again.

There are two scriptures that pertain to the saints during the days of the 70th week: they will be overcome. Daniel tells us this and John confirms it. Trying to fit church age scriptures to that time will not work. If God said the saints would be overcome, they will. Period and end of discussion.

This is just one more reason pretrib is truth: It is not God's will that His people get overcome. It is not His will that any be left behind, either - but God cannot go against a human's will. If people want to serve Satan, that is what they will do.

 

[mmksparbud]

It might become a salvation issue: It appears from scripture that Jesus is coming pretrib only for those who are expecting Him. Since you expect to go through the trib, you will certainly not expect Him to come first.

If Hebrews 9:27 is true, and of course it is, Jesus will be coming only for those who are looking for Him. All others will be left behind. That is, if I read this 27th verse right.

For those left behind, Satan's goal will be to get them to take the mark to avoid loosing their head. Thirst can be a very powerful motivator!

Then there is this: everything we ever get from heaven comes from faith. For those expecting Him, our faith is strong that He is coming pretrib for us. For those who imagine He comes after the trib, they have no faith for Him to come before.
Just saying....

Forget the seal: it is only for the 144,000 Hebrews. It is NOT for any Gentile Christians. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit the moment we are born again.

There are two scriptures that pertain to the saints during the days of the 70th week: they will be overcome. Daniel tells us this and John confirms it. Trying to fit church age scriptures to that time will not work. If God said the saints would be overcome, they will. Period and end of discussion.

This is just one more reason pretrib is truth: It is not God's will that His people get overcome. It is not His will that any be left behind, either - but God cannot go against a human's will. If people want to serve Satan, that is what they will do.

If you think that merely believing that Jesus will come for you will get you saved---you may find yourself among these:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus knows who loves Him and who doesn't. If you don't have the faith in God that He will keep His promise and carry you through the tribulation then you will fall. It was the blood of the Lamb that saved the Israelites when the angel of death took all the firstborn. And it will be His blood that saved us, not believing that He's coming to take you of the trouble.

Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are not those that got out of tribulation, but were faithful through it.

Forget the seal? Why?---God doesn't

Rev_9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[Seventh Head]

Except the 144,000, none has been chosen yet. Sorry, but the 144,000 are JEWS and HEBREWS, not From the Gentile church of today. You are mistaken about them.

Did I say otherwise?

 

[Seventh Head]

There is NO separate '70th week' of Daniel as spread everywhere. Just because you can't find it does not mean it is not real.

Beyond Scriptures it is just INVENTION!

 

[Seventh Head]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:...

Count them up: 7 + 62 = 69 weeks accounted for in verse 25.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

Here is that 70th week you imagine does not exist. Notice also how Daniel separated it from the previous 69. Why? Because 2000 years will be between the 69 and the 70.

Just so you can know, if you wish to: the 70th week is delineated in Revelation by the 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. And it is all in our future.

Dan 9:25 does not ask to add 7 to 62. Otherwise, Daniel would have written 69 weeks. Given that 70 weeks have been addressed before in this chapter, one perfectly can imagine that the 62 weeks have the same time reference (starting point) than the 70 weeks, coming to confirm when the 7 weeks end.

The covenant with many for one week is not said to start at the end of the 7 weeks, the 62 weeks, and/or even at the end of the non-existing 69 weeks. And if some people put 2,000 years between the NON-existing 69th week and the NON-existing 70th week, it is because they take for granted that the NON-existing 69th week started before JC. THAT IS PURE INVENTION! PURE SPECULATION!

And all of this comes from an original sin from the Bible prophecies researchers. They despise the warning of Jesus Christ in Rev 22, stating that the whole Book of Revelation, containing the four beasts of Daniel 7, describes the FUTURE, since it's a PROPHECY written in the LATE first century, that is to say AFTER Christ's death, resurrection and ascension!

When I see this sin (despising Christ's own words about the PROPHETIC character of the FULL Revelation), shared by SO many people, I am relieved NOT to share their viewpoint.

The 7's in the Book of Revelation have NOTHING TO DO with these weeks (not the same nature).

 

[Seventh Head]

The white horse of Rev 6 is the same white horse in Rev 19, i.e. Christ, both riders have a crown(s).
WHAT? Billions of saints will end up with crowns!

Please, show me the verse speaking about billions of saints ending with a crown...who, in addition, would correspond to the first seal, the rider of which has a bow (with the crown)!

It happens that Apollo (Apollyon) is described with a bow, and that Apollyon, the angel of the Abyss who throws Satan in the Abyss, is Christ! Therefore, the white horseman IS Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

If you think that merely believing that Jesus will come for you will get you saved---you may find yourself among these:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus knows who loves Him and who doesn't. If you don't have the faith in God that He will keep His promise and carry you through the tribulation then you will fall. It was the blood of the Lamb that saved the Israelites when the angel of death took all the firstborn. And it will be His blood that saved us, not believing that He's coming to take you of the trouble.

Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are not those that got out of tribulation, but were faithful through it.

Forget the seal? Why?---God doesn't

Rev_9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Don't be ridiculous! We all know that to be "in Christ" as Paul stated, we must be born again. We are born again through faith in His shed blood; His death, burial and resurrection. (By grace are we saved through faith.)

Many people imagine being "born again" is a guarantee to heaven. That is a fallacy! If someone born again insists on holding unforgiveness, the bible is clear: neither will their sins be forgiven. That is just one of several sins that will keep people out of heaven. Any born again person that insists on practicing sin without repentance is in danger of being left behind. Are we agreed on this? It is the WORD.

When it comes to the rapture:

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If Jesus should come TOMORROW for His bride, will you be looking for Him? Or do you believe other things must come first? I did not write this verse, probably it was Paul that wrote it.

This verse tells me that if someone is NOT "looking for Him" meaning EXPECTING Him - meaning, having FAITH He is coming at any time - then He is not going to appear to THEM. He will appear to His bride.

Therefore, if you insist on believing many other things have to happen first, such as the 7 trumpet judgments, the 7 vials of His wrath - you are not going to be looking for Him!

Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are not those that got out of tribulation, but were faithful through it.

These are the "just raptured" church. It is the ONLY group that will be this large. All John is telling us is that at the time of the pretrib rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the globe. This is not the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for those days come late in the 70th week: see chapter 15 where the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. Note carefully, John has not even started the "trib" or 70th week yet. You won't understand these things with a quick,. "once through" reading. It takes studying to show yourself approved. Note carefully that in chapter 7 John is PRETRIB in his narrative.

If you don't have the faith in God that He will keep His promise and carry you through the tribulation then you will fall. Always remember,TRUE bible faith MUST be based on scripture. If one's faith is based on human reasoning it will amount to nothing. There is no scripture to prove what you are hinting at. John and Paul are very clear (with good study): the church will be raptured before any part of the 70th week, which will all be God's wrath.

Go back and read chapter 7: camp out on it for a while until you understand it. Are you a Jew or Hebrew? What tribe? IF....If you are from one of the 12 tribes, then it is possible you could be one of the 144,000 to be sealed. But if you are a Gentile believer like me, FORGET IT: the sealing is for HEBREW people only. They will miss the pretrib rapture because at that time they were not born again, but it seems the rapture is what will convince them that Jesus really was and IS their Messiah. They turn to Jesus then, after the rapture, and God seals them just before the 70th week begins.

Always remember, the 70th week of Daniel will begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judment.

 

[BABerean2]

Many people imagine being "born again" is a guarantee to heaven. That is a fallacy! If someone born again insists on holding unforgiveness, the bible is clear: neither will their sins be forgiven. That is just one of several sins that will keep people out of heaven. Any born again person that insists on practicing sin without repentance is in danger of being left behind. Are we agreed on this? It is the WORD.

Anyone who is truly "born again" of the Spirit of God will not remain in unrepent sin.

No "born again" believer will be rejected when Christ returns to gather His Church.

Are you attempting to turn the Pretrib doctrine into a cult?

.

 

[jgr]

Go back and read chapter 7: camp out on it for a while until you understand it. Are you a Jew or Hebrew? What tribe? IF....If you are from one of the 12 tribes, then it is possible you could be one of the 144,000 to be sealed. But if you are a Gentile believer like me, FORGET IT: the sealing is for HEBREW people only. They will miss the pretrib rapture because at that time they were not born again, but it seems the rapture is what will convince them that Jesus really was and IS their Messiah. They turn to Jesus then, after the rapture, and God seals them just before the 70th week begins.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[mmksparbud]

Don't be ridiculous! We all know that to be "in Christ" as Paul stated, we must be born again. We are born again through faith in His shed blood; His death, burial and resurrection. (By grace are we saved through faith.)

Well, of course, did I say anything that makes you think that is not true?

Many people imagine being "born again" is a guarantee to heaven. That is a fallacy! If someone born again insists on holding unforgiveness, the bible is clear: neither will their sins be forgiven. That is just one of several sins that will keep people out of heaven. Any born again person that insists on practicing sin without repentance is in danger of being left behind. Are we agreed on this? It is the WORD.

Agreed except that nobody but corpses are left behind after Jesus comes.

When it comes to the rapture:

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If Jesus should come TOMORROW for His bride, will you be looking for Him? Or do you believe other things must come first? I did not write this verse, probably it was Paul that wrote it.

This verse tells me that if someone is NOT "looking for Him" meaning EXPECTING Him - meaning, having FAITH He is coming at any time - then He is not going to appear to THEM. He will appear to His bride.

Therefore, if you insist on believing many other things have to happen first, such as the 7 trumpet judgments, the 7 vials of His wrath - you are not going to be looking for Him!

God can do as He pleases---but He always does what He says He will do and He says what He will do in His word. He fulfills all scripture. Jesus fulfilled all scripture while on earth.

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We are to live as though He will come within the next 5 minutes. God always does as He says-

These are the "just raptured" church. It is the ONLY group that will be this large. All John is telling us is that at the time of the pretrib rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the globe. This is not the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for those days come late in the 70th week: see chapter 15 where the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. Note carefully, John has not even started the "trib" or 70th week yet. You won't understand these things with a quick,. "once through" reading. It takes studying to show yourself approved. Note carefully that in chapter 7 John is PRETRIB in his narrative.

Nope---don't believe that. These are the resurrected and the living saved at His 2ns coming. That is what scripture says, you are free to believe in this other stuff all you want. Jesus at the cross is what ended the sacrifices. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years. If you don't have that right, nothing else lines up.

Go back and read chapter 7: camp out on it for a while until you understand it. Are you a Jew or Hebrew? What tribe? IF....If you are from one of the 12 tribes, then it is possible you could be one of the 144,000 to be sealed. But if you are a Gentile believer like me, FORGET IT: the sealing is for HEBREW people only. They will miss the pretrib rapture because at that time they were not born again, but it seems the rapture is what will convince them that Jesus really was and IS their Messiah. They turn to Jesus then, after the rapture, and God seals them just before the 70th week begins.

Ever really looked at the 144,000? Every Hebrew name has a meaning. The 144,000 are not listed in birth order of the sons of Jacob--only place they aren't. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Ruben, the firstborn, is listed as second, while Judah, the fourth offspring, is listed as the first.

In Genesis 29:32-35, we read, “So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, ‘The LORD has surely looked on my affliction. Now therefore, my husband will love me.’ Then she conceived again and bore a son, and said, ‘Because the LORD has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also.’ And she called his name Simeon. She conceived again and bore a son, and said, ‘Now this time my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons.’ Therefore his name was called Levi. And she conceived again and bore a son, and said, ‘Now I will praise the LORD.’ Therefore she called his name Judah.” As you continue reading the narrative of each of the births of Jacob’s sons, Rachel and Leah made similar prophetic statements for all 12 of the sons regarding the meanings of their names.
Here are the names of the tribes listed for the 144,000, in the order in which Revelation 7 lists them, and their corresponding Hebrew meanings as found in Scripture:
1.
Judah means
“I will praise the Lord”
2.
Ruben means
“He has looked on me”
3.
Gad means
“Given good fortune”
4.
Asher means
“Happy am I”
5.
Naphtali means
“My wrestling”
6.
Manasseh means
“Making me to forget”
7.
Simeon means
“God hears me”
8.
Levi means
“Joined to me”
9.
Issachar means
“Purchased Me”
10.
Zebulun means
“Dwelling”
11.
Joseph means
“Will add to me”
12.
Benjamin means
“Son of His right hand”

Now here is the amazing part. Notice what happens when you line up these meanings of the names according to the way they appear as listed in Revelation. It forms a very remarkable statement declaring how God saves the church as His bride!
“I will praise the Lord for he has looked on me and granted good fortune. I am happy because my wrestling, God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling and will add to me, the Son of His right hand.” (As in Scripture, the words in italics are supplied for flow of thought.)
These names presented in this order describe a brief story summarizing the church’s struggle, redemption, victory, and ultimate marriage to the Lamb. It seems evident that this is a special message of encouragement for those who are in the Church, believers in Christ, and not necessarily just Jews.

 

[iamlamad]

Anyone who is truly "born again" of the Spirit of God will not remain in unrepent sin.

No "born again" believer will be rejected when Christ returns to gather His Church.

Are you attempting to turn the Pretrib doctrine into a cult?

.

I think you live in a dream world. What happened to the seed that fell on stony ground? Maybe you need to read it with your own eyes:

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Every born again believer has the choice of living after the flesh or following the Spirit. It is as simple as that. I didn't write this; Paul did.

The truth is, it is very difficult to get out from under the blood covenant, but it is possible, and if a believer is determined, it can happen. Perhaps you did not read Heb. 6 Where it is written that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

This is related to the rapture. Did you not notice that only 50% of the virgins got in to the wedding?

 

[iamlamad]

Well, of course, did I say anything that makes you think that is not true?

Yes, you wrote "If you think that merely believing that Jesus will come for you will get you saved..."

 

[iamlamad]

...

Agreed except that nobody but corpses are left behind after Jesus comes.

You say this because you don't understand when He comes - or that He will come two more times. The truth is, He is coming pretrib FOR His saints, then posttrib WITH His saints. And your statement is simply not true in either coming.

You do know, I hope, that there will be a judgment of the nations AFTER He comes to Armageddon? Who are the sheep? Who are the goats? Both groups will be people very much alive and breathing. Your theory is bogus.