Rapture - I would be afraid not to believe in one

[rockytopva]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:39-40

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:7-8

If I were not looking for Christ to come at any time… And he did just that… I would be afraid as punishment I would be left behind.

 

[dqhall]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:39-40

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:7-8

If I were not looking for Christ to come at any time… And he did just that… I would be afraid as punishment I would be left behind.

According to Luke:

Acts 1:6 (WEB) Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

 

[rockytopva]

According to Luke:

Acts 1:6 (WEB) Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Good post, thanks for sharing.

 

[BobRyan]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days

And as Dan 9 points out for all to see - in its 70 weeks - 490 day timeline predicting the first coming of Christ -- apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year timelines.

This is not only the case in Dan 12 and Dan 9, it is also true in Dan 7 and Dan 8 and Rev 11, and Rev 12, and Rev 13.


==========================

So given that easy and obvious rule -- that almost everyone can see in Dan 9 and can see in the other cases if they are willing to see it....

The MAIN issue with the rapture is the idea that God takes the saints to heaven... ever. That is where the majority of Christianity divides. But the Bible makes it very clear that in fact God does take the saints to heaven as we see in John 14:1-3, Matt 24:29-31, 1 Thess 4:13-18 etc.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:39-40

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:7-8

If I were not looking for Christ to come at any time… And he did just that… I would be afraid as punishment I would be left behind.

Consider the right interpretation of Matthew 24. Who was left behind?
Blessings.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[BobRyan]

Consider the right interpretation of Matthew 24. Who was left behind?
Blessings.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Yes - Matt 24 shows us Christ informing mankind that the second coming event is like the flood.

What happened to those left out of the ark? Did they live a long and prosperous life?
What happened to the Earth - was it doing "just fine" or did it look like Jer 4:23-26 and Jer 25:33?
Where the saints protected/saved/preserved at the flood?
Where the saints in an isolated state (still on Earth) for about 7 days just before the flood?

 

[rockytopva]

Reading the entire quote.. "It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

So... I am trying to avoid the Harold Camping type stuff. I live as though Christ could come today. Also understanding it could still be decades down the road.

 

[BobRyan]

There were a number of "false Messiah's" before and after the real first coming of Christ.

So what lessons do we learn from the event 2000 years ago.

1. The fact of many false Messiah's near the time of Christ - did not make it "less important" to study the signs and know the difference between real and fake - it made it more critical.
2. There was not a desert of "no Messiahs" such that the only one that did show up - was the real deal. That means that simply sleeping through it and waking only when someone claims to be one - would not work.
3. Jesus said that just as the entire world was duped in Gen 7 at the flood - so the entire world would also be duped in the end - totally unprepared for the 2nd coming event - and so doomed.
4. Jesus said that the second coming event would have such strong deception "fakes" around it that it would deceive those who were not awake and watching. He kept say "so watch" be alert, "notice when you see all these signs".
5. In Matt 24 Jesus said "I have told you in advance SO THAT you will not be deceived' as opposed to 'pay no attention to the details I am giving you -- and all will be well - anyway"

 

[BobRyan]

There were a number of "false Messiah's" before and after the real first coming of Christ.

So what lessons do we learn from the event 2000 years ago.

1. The fact of many false Messiah's near the time of Christ - did not make it "less important" to study the signs and know the difference between real and fake - it made it more critical.
2. There was not a desert of "no Messiahs" such that the only one that did show up - was the real deal. That means that simply sleeping through it and waking only when someone claims to be one - would not work.
3. Jesus said that just as the entire world was duped in Gen 7 at the flood - so the entire world would also be duped in the end - totally unprepared for the 2nd coming event - and so doomed.
4. Jesus said that the second coming event would have such strong deception "fakes" around it that it would deceive those who were not awake and watching. He kept say "so watch" be alert, "notice when you see all these signs".
5. In Matt 24 Jesus said "I have told you in advance SO THAT you will not be deceived' as opposed to 'pay no attention to the details I am giving you -- and all will be well - anyway"

Let's contrast that with "the alternative" where you pay no attention "and all is well anyway".

1. First we note that NO warning message from God EVER worked out well for the option of "pay no attention - nothing can go wrong" idea. As the flood demonstrates.
2. Almost every scenario you see promoted today has the "but if you did not know this - it would not matter in the end" feature. That is a "sign" something is wrong because that is not how Christ presents it in Matt 24. Jesus was not saying something like "what I am saying is true - but you do not really need to know it. All will be well"

 

[keras]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton..

It was impossible for Newton to get to the truth of Bible Prophecy. He was a wise and learned man. Matthew 11:25-26 says: These things are hidden from the wise and learned........

Trying to fit the times into the Middle Ages and getting a date of 2060, is crazy.
Do people really think the world will just go on as it is today for another 38 years?

As for the belief of a 'rapture to heaven', my best suggestion is for people to have a plan B, what to do when things get rough and I'm still here.

 

[rockytopva]

It was impossible for Newton to get to the truth of Bible Prophecy. He was a wise and learned man. Matthew 11:25-26 says: These things are hidden from the wise and learned........

Trying to fit the times into the Middle Ages and getting a date of 2060, is crazy.
Do people really think the world will just go on as it is today for another 38 years?

As for the belief of a 'rapture to heaven', my best suggestion is for people to have a plan B, what to do when things get rough and I'm still here.

If you had to build an end time scenario what would it be? My estimations are that we are at the end of the Laodicean Church age and in the times like Noah.

 

[Blade]

"Rapture - I would be afraid not to believe in one"

For me I would not use the word afraid but I truly understand. I remember this prophet who lol never liked being called that but (home now) once said "I am post tribulation...BUT if Christ comes now I am ready now".

So amen.. being in that house with so many watching not knowing when He will return. Some are not watching just going on with life.

 

[BobRyan]

If you had to build an end time scenario what would it be? My estimations are that we are at the end of the Laodicean Church age and in the times like Noah.

Daniel gives a timeline for when the end times begin - and we are in it according to Daniel 8.

18 Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright. 19 He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.

Scripture tells us that the end of the 2300 day-for-year timeline points to the start of the "time of the end". That 2300 year timeline ended in 1844.



The 70 weeks come from Dan 9.
The 2300 days come from Dan 9.

 

[BobRyan]

"Rapture - I would be afraid not to believe in one"

For me I would not use the word afraid but I truly understand. I remember this prophet who lol never liked being called that but (home now) once said "I am post tribulation...BUT if Christ comes now I am ready now".

So amen.. being in that house with so many watching not knowing when He will return. Some are not watching just going on with life.

Amen.

But the benefit of knowing the times, knowing the actual warning that Christ gives - means "being warned" and Jesus said "I told you in advance" as the key that would provide our end-time ark of safety.

Noah "built the boat in advance" -- Christ has given us His end-time warning in advance. They are both there to spare those living during the crisis event they each predict.

 

[JulieB67]

The thing is people will be thinking peace and safety when the true Christ returns. Do people really believe at this point in the world people will be saying or thinking peace and safety?

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

It's the day of the Lord that comes like a thief in the night. Not a secret pretrib rapture. This verse clearly nails that.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

These very people thinking and saying peace and safety that will have sudden destruction cometh upon them.

And they will be thinking peace and safety because of this -

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

We don't know the day of the hour but we are to know the signs that Christ laid out and Paul also stated that the day of Christ/day of the Lord would not happen until the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. He wrote a second letter to the Thessalonians and nailed the timing for them since they were confused and thought Christ could return at any time. Paul very specifically states that "day shall not happen...." The very same day he's talking about in 1st Thes.

It will unfold for one generation. That's why we watch.

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel gives a timeline for when the end times begin - and we are in it according to Daniel 8.

18 Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright. 19 He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.

Scripture tells us that the end of the 2300 day-for-year timeline points to the start of the "time of the end". That 2300 year timeline ended in 1844.



The 70 weeks come from Dan 9.
The 2300 days come from Dan 9.

-------------------------------------------------------
Now, there was a fellow by the name of Miller. He was a minister in the United States back in the 1800's and he took and said, 2,300 days is actually 2,300 years. And he took the day that the temple was profaned and he added to that 2,300 years and he said Jesus is coming in the 2,300 years after the profaning of the temple and so he picked a date in 1844 that he had determined Christ was coming. And they got white robes and they went out in the hills there in Illinois and waited for Jesus to come. After a couple of weeks, they had sold everything, sold their houses, farms, everything else, so certain the Lord would come. And, of course, when the Lord didn't come, the group that were known as the Millerites sort of disbanded. But then a lady came along, Ellen G. White, and said, "Oh Jesus at this point cleansed the sanctuary in the heavens. He entered into the sanctuary and cleansed it in the heavens." And so she developed the Seventh Day Adventists and they follow her writings and so forth, which it turns out aren't necessarily her writing. She was a plagiarist and has copied from other books and so forth, which some of their own scholars are discovering nowadays and exposing and getting kicked out of the Seventh Day Adventist. It's quite a stir that's going on in that particular denomination right now. But at any rate, they took the prophecy from here in Daniel, but there is no basis whatsoever to make the 2,300 days 2,300 years. That's not good Biblical interpretation or exegesis, or whatever.

Daniel 8:23 - Verse-by-Verse Bible Commentary - StudyLight.org
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[dqhall]

-------------------------------------------------------
Now, there was a fellow by the name of Miller. He was a minister in the United States back in the 1800's and he took and said, 2,300 days is actually 2,300 years. And he took the day that the temple was profaned and he added to that 2,300 years and he said Jesus is coming in the 2,300 years after the profaning of the temple and so he picked a date in 1844 that he had determined Christ was coming. And they got white robes and they went out in the hills there in Illinois and waited for Jesus to come. After a couple of weeks, they had sold everything, sold their houses, farms, everything else, so certain the Lord would come. And, of course, when the Lord didn't come, the group that were known as the Millerites sort of disbanded. But then a lady came along, Ellen G. White, and said, "Oh Jesus at this point cleansed the sanctuary in the heavens. He entered into the sanctuary and cleansed it in the heavens." And so she developed the Seventh Day Adventists and they follow her writings and so forth, which it turns out aren't necessarily her writing. She was a plagiarist and has copied from other books and so forth, which some of their own scholars are discovering nowadays and exposing and getting kicked out of the Seventh Day Adventist. It's quite a stir that's going on in that particular denomination right now. But at any rate, they took the prophecy from here in Daniel, but there is no basis whatsoever to make the 2,300 days 2,300 years. That's not good Biblical interpretation or exegesis, or whatever.

Daniel 8:23 - Verse-by-Verse Bible Commentary - StudyLight.org
------------------------------------------------------

There is a group of Seventh Day Adventists in Loma Linda who have more of their community living to be 100 than most other communities in the world. They do not smoke or drink alcohol. They ate a primarily plant based diet with vegans and vegetarians in leadership positions. I was working with a Seventh Day Adventist crew in the early 80’d and attended some of their Sabbath services.

 

[DavidPT]

There is a group of Seventh Day Adventists in Loma Linda who have more of their community living to be 100 than most other communities in the world. They do not smoke or drink alcohol. They ate a primarily plant based diet with vegans and vegetarians in leadership positions. I was working with a Seventh Day Adventist crew in the early 80’d and attended some of their Sabbath services.

Personally, I don't have anything against SDAs. A lot of things I agree with them about, but this not being one of them. Until I read this Commentary today that I just submitted, I never realized that there were actually people in Illinois 2300 years later waiting for the Lord to return, and that they sold all of their possessions, even their farms. If that alone doesn't prove there is zero reason to apply years to days, then I don't know what is? Nothing significant happened in 1844. In my view the prophecy involving the little horn in Daniel 8 is meaning the beast in Revelation 13. And in 1844 this same beast was not cast into the LOF at Christ's 2nd coming. Something that obviously has to happen before the sanctuary shall be cleansed.

 

[rockytopva]

And to recall a scripture...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

I can imagine...

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

I can imagine all of us being gathered together in the clouds and saying amongst ourselves... I never would have thought it would have been today!

 

[DavidPT]

And to recall a scripture...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

I can imagine...

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

I can imagine all of us being gathered together in the clouds and saying amongst ourselves... I never would have thought it would have been today!

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


All of the above is the context involving that verse. While verse 40 and 41 gives the impression it might involve a rapture, the following verses don't give the impression that the rapture will be pretrib, though.


Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This couldn't possibly be meaning before the great trib begins, and that this is clearly meaning when verse 44 is meaning. Is one going to argue and expect to be taken serious, that the coming recorded in verse 44 is not the same coming involving verses 50-51? What does weeping and gnashing of teeth involve?

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Does any of this sound like this is meaning before great tribulation or during great tribulation? Keeping in mind that this is what occurs once the coming in Matthew 24:44 occurs.