Rapture Believers, question about post-rapture faith

[ByTheSpirit]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

 

[Blade]

Gods love for this world has never changed. He told Israel before Christ came to take His word to the world. Its written "only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." So its not written taken out of the world just out of the way. Then we know about the 144k and the "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Gods love for this world has never changed. He told Israel before Christ came to take His word to the world. Its written "only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." So its not written taken out of the world just out of the way. Then we know about the 144k and the "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"

So do you think that means God will only work salvation among the Jews?

 

[Leaf473]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

Hi ByTheSpirit,

I don't really have a strong feeling about it, but I guess I'm pre-trib rapture. God raptures all believers at that time. Those, Jew or gentile, who become believers after that just have to go through the Great tribulation.

Acts 2
The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.

21 It will be, that whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Peace be with you

 

[Timtofly]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

The Second Coming at the 6th Seal begins the final harvest. No one is saved by faith after the 6th Seal. The sheep and wheat are directly chosen by Jesus the King sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. All of Adam's flesh will be harvested by the end of the 7th Trumpet. If the church is going to bring in a harvest, it is now or never.

During those last 42 months of Satan's AoD, the only act of faith is being beheaded to avoid the mark of the beast. Once one receives the mark, they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. There is no redemption at that point.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

I'm not surprised your not getting a clear answer here. Not to add but....I've always wondered what happens to all the dead unbelieving Jews before the pre-trib rapture. They are also out of luck because they were born in the wrong generation. So let us reason. This theological view has many, many unanswerable questions. I decided long ago to move on from it.
Blessings.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm not surprised your not getting a clear answer here. Not to add but....I've always wondered what happens to all the dead unbelieving Jews before the pre-trib rapture. They are also out of luck because they were born in the wrong generation. So let us reason. This theological view has many, many unanswerable questions. I decided long ago to move on from it.
Blessings.

It's true that it's a difficult question to answer. I was having a rather inquisitive moment the other day when I asked. Ultimately, I don't think scripture clearly addresses it, so true, not something we should spend a lot of time on. Not to mention, the question as I posed it only applies to a portion of believers, as not all believe in a pre-trib rapture. Still, thanks for your response!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The Second Coming at the 6th Seal begins the final harvest. No one is saved by faith after the 6th Seal. The sheep and wheat are directly chosen by Jesus the King sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. All of Adam's flesh will be harvested by the end of the 7th Trumpet. If the church is going to bring in a harvest, it is now or never.

During those last 42 months of Satan's AoD, the only act of faith is being beheaded to avoid the mark of the beast. Once one receives the mark, they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. There is no redemption at that point.

If I understand your view here correctly, you don't believe Gentiles can be saved after the rapture then.

 

[Timtofly]

If I understand your view here correctly, you don't believe Gentiles can be saved after the rapture then.

No one "gets saved" after the 6th Seal.

No one will be left in Adam's flesh when the 7th Trumpet srops sounding, and Daniel's 70th week is brought to completion. The church harvest is over at the 6th Seal. The 6 Trumpets are for Israel, and the 7 Thunders are for the Nations. If you want to call the wheat harvest Gentiles, does that leave out Chinese, and Africans?

The wheat harvest is sown by Jesus Himself on earth and in person. It is not for Israel nor the church. Obviously John could not tell us what happens, as this harvest is not for those reading Scripture.

This is not a second chance situation. This is the end of life as we know it. Any one who thinks they will attempt to endure all the way to the end are trying to go out of their way in avoiding God's Salvation.

People keep calling it post trib, but it is post final harvest. All who are left at Armageddon are those with the mark of the beast. That is your post trib group.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No one "gets saved" after the 6th Seal.

No one will be left in Adam's flesh when the 7th Trumpet srops sounding, and Daniel's 70th week is brought to completion. The church harvest is over at the 6th Seal. The 6 Trumpets are for Israel, and the 7 Thunders are for the Nations. If you want to call the wheat harvest Gentiles, does that leave out Chinese, and Africans?

The wheat harvest is sown by Jesus Himself on earth and in person. It is not for Israel nor the church. Obviously John could not tell us what happens, as this harvest is not for those reading Scripture.

This is not a second chance situation. This is the end of life as we know it. Any one who thinks they will attempt to endure all the way to the end are trying to go out of their way in avoiding God's Salvation.

People keep calling it post trib, but it is post final harvest. All who are left at Armageddon are those with the mark of the beast. That is your post trib group.

ah well my question must not be for you then. Im asking specifically about those who believe in the pretrib rapture and how they view salvation after the church is raptured. the 6th seal would happen after that.

 

[Timtofly]

ah well my question must not be for you then. Im asking specifically about those who believe in the pretrib rapture and how they view salvation after the church is raptured. the 6th seal would happen after that.

The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. The same time the rapture happens.

The gospel is preached but there is no confession or professing one's salvation. That was part of the church. All that stops at the 6th Seal. That is the whole point. There is no more preaching Salvation after the 6th Seal.

The Trumpets are for Israel. They are not accepting Salvation. They are divided into sheep and goats by Jesus' decision, not theirs.

The wheat is seed sown by Jesus, not Israel, the church, nor the angels. Matthew 13:37-42

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus as King on the earth); The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Jesus sows the seed. Satan sows his seed. The angels are harvesting the souls out of their bodies. These is not your church harvest of the last 1992 years. How this works we are told right here in these verses. This is Matthew telling us about the 7 Thunders. John is not allowed to give us the details. But Matthew gives us all we need to know. How is this considered today's personal salvation, other than some theologians told you it had to be about Christians?

It says right there "the end of the world" and "angels". Nothing about the gospel nor the church, nor Israel for that matter.

The Church has had 1992 years of tribulation. The rapture is post the tribulation of those years.

The Trumpets deal with Israel. Jacob's trouble is the GT. The church was harvested before the Trumpets. Israel is harvested before the Thunders. The wheat and tares are the left overs after the Church, the sheep, and the goats.

After that there are only those with the mark and those humans without heads. Those with the mark are killed at Armageddon. Those without heads are resurrected the next day after Armageddon.

Those without heads, the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat make it into the Millennium Kingdom. They are the firstfruits who populate the earth for 1,000 years. You don't need salvation to live on earth. You need to be chosen or choose to have your head cut off. The last time I checked cutting one's head off is instant death, not salvation. Salvation is not what it is called when they are resurrected. They are called blessed, but not saved. They are saved from the second death.

When I think of Salvation, I think of being spiritually born from above into God's family, not living on earth reigning with Christ. Many call the first resurrection as being in Christ. If we are in Christ how are we outside of Christ living physically outside of God's family? Many don't accept a future millennium, because they do not allow just physically living on earth. Adam and Eve lived together for a brief time as sons of God, God's family on earth. But yet, being restored is more than just living on earth. Being the church is more than just putting humans back on earth like Adam and Eve. The Millennium is not for the church. So Salvation is not a thing on earth even during the Millennium. The Millennium is the last 1,000 years of living on earth like it was meant to be. But the church is not subjected to just living all over again on earth in this current creation.

Jesus at the Second Coming is here to pick and choose who is going to live on earth one last time, before every thing changes, when he hands back creation to God, and current reality ceases to exist.

 

[Jamdoc]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

So, pre-trib rapture folk HAVE to believe in Gentiles being saved after the rapture, because scripture is very explicit that Antichrist makes war against the saints and overcomes them, this is Daniel 7, and Revelation 12 and 13, and Revelation 12 even specifies that they are people who hold the testimony of Jesus Christ so it cannot be deflected off in a dispensational way to say that they're Jews the way they deflect Matthew 24 to refer to the elect as non believing Jews.

now I'm not pre trib, I am pre wrath, and I'm probably kind of out there for pre-wrath as most pre-wrath also believe in salvation of Gentiles after the rapture at the 6th seal.

HOWEVER, I have been pointed to a few locations in scripture, that cast doubt on that possibility. It is.. kind of severe, but it is scripture.
I suppose I am piggybacking this view onto your question to challenge pre-trib, because it has been a conviction on me.

But first let's go to Romans 11

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

So, yes, the bible does teach that after "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." that God will remove the blindness from Israel, and save them.
What is the fulness of the Gentiles? Well, it stands to reason, that it means that all Gentiles who are of the Kingdom, have been saved. That would be a totality of it, suggesting that there are no more to come.

Now, do we have more witnesses to establish truth?
We do.

Amos 8

8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

Let's establish this first, an Earthquake, people mourning, the sun gets darkened during the day
This is Day of the Lord language, this is Matthew 24:29-30, Zechariah 12:10-11, and Revelation 6:12-17
In other words, it's 6th seal.

Now let's continue:

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

So.. after the 6th seal, there's a famine for hearing the word of God. Nobody is preaching it. They're all gone.... and .. faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. But how will they hear without a preacher?

and .. while I know we should not take doctrine from Parables.. what else is the point of a parable other than to illustrate a truth... Jesus spent the back half of the Olivet Discourse using parables to describe His second coming, and they are all rather chilling. The parable of the 10 virgins addresses your question.

Matthew 25:

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Jesus did not say "come back later" when they tried to come to Him late.
Jesus outright turned them away.

to further illustrate, after the 6th seal, we no longer see saints on Earth aside from the 144k who are of the tribes of Israel, not Gentiles. (if you recognize that the Narrative starts over in Revelation 12 and Revelation 12-20 are not chronological after Revelation 11, it's a retelling of the same events with different details). What you see of Humanity during the wrath of God, is blaspheming God, cursing, and refusing to stop their sins and stop worshiping Devils.
There is no repenting during that time, even though at the 6th seal, they are fully aware that it is God, I believe because they actually see Jesus on the clouds, they know it's His wrath in Revelation 6:17 that is come.

So, the TL;DR is that pretrib have to believe in post rapture salvation of gentiles being possible, and most pre-wrath as well, but I believe the bible teaches that once Jesus comes on the clouds, for the resurrection and rapture, that's it for Gentiles, that's the fullness of the Gentiles.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. The same time the rapture happens.

The gospel is preached but there is no confession or professing one's salvation. That was part of the church. All that stops at the 6th Seal. That is the whole point. There is no more preaching Salvation after the 6th Seal.

The Trumpets are for Israel. They are not accepting Salvation. They are divided into sheep and goats by Jesus' decision, not theirs.

The wheat is seed sown by Jesus, not Israel, the church, nor the angels. Matthew 13:37-42

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus as King on the earth); The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Jesus sows the seed. Satan sows his seed. The angels are harvesting the souls out of their bodies. These is not your church harvest of the last 1992 years. How this works we are told right here in these verses. This is Matthew telling us about the 7 Thunders. John is not allowed to give us the details. But Matthew gives us all we need to know. How is this considered today's personal salvation, other than some theologians told you it had to be about Christians?

It says right there "the end of the world" and "angels". Nothing about the gospel nor the church, nor Israel for that matter.

The Church has had 1992 years of tribulation. The rapture is post the tribulation of those years.

The Trumpets deal with Israel. Jacob's trouble is the GT. The church was harvested before the Trumpets. Israel is harvested before the Thunders. The wheat and tares are the left overs after the Church, the sheep, and the goats.

After that there are only those with the mark and those humans without heads. Those with the mark are killed at Armageddon. Those without heads are resurrected the next day after Armageddon.

Those without heads, the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat make it into the Millennium Kingdom. They are the firstfruits who populate the earth for 1,000 years. You don't need salvation to live on earth. You need to be chosen or choose to have your head cut off. The last time I checked cutting one's head off is instant death, not salvation. Salvation is not what it is called when they are resurrected. They are called blessed, but not saved. They are saved from the second death.

When I think of Salvation, I think of being spiritually born from above into God's family, not living on earth reigning with Christ. Many call the first resurrection as being in Christ. If we are in Christ how are we outside of Christ living physically outside of God's family? Many don't accept a future millennium, because they do not allow just physically living on earth. Adam and Eve lived together for a brief time as sons of God, God's family on earth. But yet, being restored is more than just living on earth. Being the church is more than just putting humans back on earth like Adam and Eve. The Millennium is not for the church. So Salvation is not a thing on earth even during the Millennium. The Millennium is the last 1,000 years of living on earth like it was meant to be. But the church is not subjected to just living all over again on earth in this current creation.

Jesus at the Second Coming is here to pick and choose who is going to live on earth one last time, before every thing changes, when he hands back creation to God, and current reality ceases to exist.

so my question doesn't apply to you then. I was asking only for those who believe in the pretrib rapture. Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway

 

[Douggg]

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

No, it means that anyone can be saved, but they will have to endure going through the great tribulation.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No, it means that anyone can be saved, but they will have to endure going through the great tribulation.

So why remove the church in the first place? If the purpose of removing the church is to spare believers from the horrors of the Tribulation, seems rather self-defeating no if people can be saved still after the rapture?

 

[Jamdoc]

So why remove the church in the first place? If the purpose of removing the church is to spare believers from the horrors of the Tribulation, seems rather self-defeating no if people can be saved still after the rapture?

The problem is foundationally, not understanding what Jesus meant by great tribulation.
People have this mindframe that the wrath of God and tribulation are the same thing, since believers are promised to be spared from the wrath of God, they feel that ah, we're spared from tribulation and Antichrist making war on us too. But they HAVE to find a way to explain the saints that Antichrist persecutes. So post rapture salvation is their solution, even though it does not make sense and creates "second class citizens of heaven".

We are made 2 promises.
1. All who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution/tribulation
2. We are not appointed to wrath.

Properly understanding that when Jesus says Tribulation He means religious persecution, and not the wrath of God (the Wrath of God is a response to the persecution of the great tribulation), makes these 2 truths make sense, and provides consistency, and also can be used to understand the "make war on the saints" passages without inventing another class of citizen of heaven to try and explain them, and makes consistent the constant warnings of Jesus about being ready when He returns. The warning was not paired with temporal suffering, but eternal suffering.

Pretribulationism relies on 3 false doctrines:
1. equating "Great Tribulation" as being the same thing as "the wrath of God", termed "the seven year tribulation". The bible never says that, when Jesus refers to tribulation he refers to persecution, consistent with how the word tribulation is used in the rest of the bible. Jesus described nothing like the 7 trumpets or 7 bowls in the Olivet Discourse. People just assume that's what he means by "great tribulation"
2. that the Rapture and second coming are separate events, even though Paul equated the two multiple times, in 1 Corinthians 15, in Titus 2, in both epistles to the Thessalonians.
3. That salvation continues after the rapture to explain the saints that Antichrist makes war against

any one of those being exposed as false kind of deflates the entire position.

 

[Douggg]

So why remove the church in the first place? If the purpose of removing the church is to spare believers from the horrors of the Tribulation, seems rather self-defeating no if people can be saved still after the rapture?

Christians are not appointed to the time of God wrath. The rapture is the means by which Christians are spared going through that time.

Turning to Jesus after the rapture takes place, a person can still be saved, but since the rapture will have already taken place, those post rapture new believers in Christ will end up going through the great tribulation.

To them who take part in the rapture, it completes our salvation which is two part...

- redemption of the soul which takes place immediately upon turning to Jesus for forgivenenss of our sins.

- redemption of our bodies, which takes place in being changed a twinkling of an eye, if alive. Or for them who sleep in Christ, the resurrection of the their bodies into eternal life incorruptible bodies to reunite with their souls.

 

[Leaf473]

So why remove the church in the first place? If the purpose of removing the church is to spare believers from the horrors of the Tribulation, seems rather self-defeating no if people can be saved still after the rapture?

My understanding is that it's because God hasn't destined us for wrath.

I'm sure this passage has been brought up many times, from 1 Thessalonians,
For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

It's kind of like Rahab. Other people in Jericho probably could have repented after the Israelites surrounded the city. But they still got killed, where rahab ends up as an ancestor of Jesus!

 

[Leaf473]

Lol... I go through the posts one at a time, so reading the most recent posts I see that the idea of not being appointed to experience God's anger was brought up several times!

Peace be with you all.

 

[Emun]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

The dispensationalist idea that God has two different peoples, the Christians and the Jews, is an error. This teaching is not found in the early church, it is an invention of modern times. The Church Fathers were aware that the Church is the true spiritual Israel. In the Church there are people from all nations, including Jews. But the Church makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile, all are one.

What is also bad with some dispensationalists is that they think there would be a third temple where Jesus himself would offer sacrifices again. That is blasphemous.

These people do not understand the Old Testament, they take it literally although it is to be understood spiritually. They also take prophecies that have already been fulfilled and present them as prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled.