Rapture Believers, question about post-rapture faith

[Jamdoc]

I hear what you're saying. At the same time, it's hard for me to reconcile a single coming with passages like Zechariah 14:

His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east.

If the family of Egypt doesn’t go up, and doesn’t come, neither will it rain on them. This will be the plague with which the Lord will strike the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of tents.

Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of Armies; and all those who sacrifice will come and take of them, and cook in them.

See here's the thing, as far as we know it is one coming, but with multiple things happening connected to and happening after that coming.
many people see everything being fulfilled all at once and they will allegorize what is prophecied to happen. Ammillennialists will see all the trumpets and vials as metaphors for the earth just being instantly nuked on Christ's return or something along that lines because they choose a single verse and take it hyperliterally and make all other verses about Jesus' second coming allegory to make it align to that one verse.
Most post trib do varying degrees of that.
and pre-trib see multiple comings I guess you could say, Jesus coming down to rapture the saints (why they won't call that the second coming is beyond me), then going to up heaven and coming back later apparently. If you take Revelation as 100% Chronological Jesus appears on the clouds twice, announces His coming and establishing the Kingdom twice, and is on Earth fighting a battle and so you'd have 5 "second comings"

But as I comb through old testament prophecy what I see is a progression of events *after* Jesus returns, like a military campaign, and in it, the people who are rescued from captivity are Jews.

Gentiles are kinda.. gone, or are enemies.

so what I see is Jesus returns on the clouds, raptures the saints, and then is on the Earth during the wrath of God, and rescuing the Jews from captivity and bringing them back to Israel. Most specifically, Jesus comes back, raises people up to the sky, and then He goes south to Edom, then comes back to Jerusalem.
like, I can show this purely from Old Testament.
But essentially, Jesus comes on the Earth and then He's actually doing things, and in Isaiah 63, He actually says He was alone, like the saints weren't with Him.

and that's the sort of thing that leads me to believe after Jesus returns for the rapture, that's it for Gentiles, no mas.

Because gentiles are shown throughout old testament prophecy to be enemies only, and the parable of the 10 virgins says.. it's too late after the door is closed, and Amos 8, nobody preaches the Word of God after the 6th seal, and in Revelation, once the wrath of God starts, there's no scenes of repentance and faith aside from the 144k, there's just... people hating God and cursing Him.

 

[DavidPT]

See here's the thing, as far as we know it is one coming, but with multiple things happening connected to and happening after that coming.
many people see everything being fulfilled all at once and they will allegorize what is prophecied to happen. Ammillennialists will see all the trumpets and vials as metaphors for the earth just being instantly nuked on Christ's return or something along that lines because they choose a single verse and take it hyperliterally and make all other verses about Jesus' second coming allegory to make it align to that one verse.
Most post trib do varying degrees of that.
and pre-trib see multiple comings I guess you could say, Jesus coming down to rapture the saints (why they won't call that the second coming is beyond me), then going to up heaven and coming back later apparently. If you take Revelation as 100% Chronological Jesus appears on the clouds twice, announces His coming and establishing the Kingdom twice, and is on Earth fighting a battle and so you'd have 5 "second comings"

But as I comb through old testament prophecy what I see is a progression of events *after* Jesus returns, like a military campaign, and in it, the people who are rescued from captivity are Jews.

Gentiles are kinda.. gone, or are enemies.

so what I see is Jesus returns on the clouds, raptures the saints, and then is on the Earth during the wrath of God, and rescuing the Jews from captivity and bringing them back to Israel. Most specifically, Jesus comes back, raises people up to the sky, and then He goes south to Edom, then comes back to Jerusalem.
like, I can show this purely from Old Testament.
But essentially, Jesus comes on the Earth and then He's actually doing things, and in Isaiah 63, He actually says He was alone, like the saints weren't with Him.

and that's the sort of thing that leads me to believe after Jesus returns for the rapture, that's it for Gentiles, no mas.

Because gentiles are shown throughout old testament prophecy to be enemies only, and the parable of the 10 virgins says.. it's too late after the door is closed, and Amos 8, nobody preaches the Word of God after the 6th seal, and in Revelation, once the wrath of God starts, there's no scenes of repentance and faith aside from the 144k, there's just... people hating God and cursing Him.

If the rapture happens and that Jesus then departs from them in order to be alone fulfilling the OT passage you bring up, how could that not be contradicting the following I underlined in the verse below?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Doesn't sound like to me that everyone is ever with the Lord if they are abandoned right after being caught up to Him in the clouds. I take it to mean, from that point on, that they are always where He is at all times after meeting Him in the clouds.

 

[Jamdoc]

If the rapture happens and that Jesus then departs from them in order to be alone fulfilling the OT passage you bring up, how could that not be contradicting the following I underlined in the verse below?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Doesn't sound like to me that everyone is ever with the Lord if they are abandoned right after being caught up to Him in the clouds. I take it to mean, from that point on, that they are always where He is at all times after meeting Him in the clouds.

They're with the Lord
they're with God the Father.

Revelation 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

First, I want to point out that these people are in heaven, before everyone's traditionally held "second coming".

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

So in the heavenly scene these are familiar appearances, God the Father on His throne, the 24 elders, and the 4 beasts, along with the previous multitude of saints in heaven.
but where's the lamb?

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

They talk about the Lamb... but where is He?

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

They talk ABOUT Jesus, but where is He?

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

There He is, the heavens had to open up to show Him, and they were in heaven, and He was not there.

He was already on Earth, His clothes already dipped in blood, it's very similar to Isaiah 63 when He's coming back from Edom.

But, we were in Heaven, with God the Father on the throne praising Him.
So we were with the Lord
when we go back down to Earth to be with Jesus
we are with the Lord.

So we are always with the Lord, just which person in the Trinity?

 

[Leaf473]

See here's the thing, as far as we know it is one coming, but with multiple things happening connected to and happening after that coming.
many people see everything being fulfilled all at once and they will allegorize what is prophecied to happen. Ammillennialists will see all the trumpets and vials as metaphors for the earth just being instantly nuked on Christ's return or something along that lines because they choose a single verse and take it hyperliterally and make all other verses about Jesus' second coming allegory to make it align to that one verse.
Most post trib do varying degrees of that.
and pre-trib see multiple comings I guess you could say, Jesus coming down to rapture the saints (why they won't call that the second coming is beyond me), then going to up heaven and coming back later apparently. If you take Revelation as 100% Chronological Jesus appears on the clouds twice, announces His coming and establishing the Kingdom twice, and is on Earth fighting a battle and so you'd have 5 "second comings"

But as I comb through old testament prophecy what I see is a progression of events *after* Jesus returns, like a military campaign, and in it, the people who are rescued from captivity are Jews.

Gentiles are kinda.. gone, or are enemies.

so what I see is Jesus returns on the clouds, raptures the saints, and then is on the Earth during the wrath of God, and rescuing the Jews from captivity and bringing them back to Israel. Most specifically, Jesus comes back, raises people up to the sky, and then He goes south to Edom, then comes back to Jerusalem.
like, I can show this purely from Old Testament.
But essentially, Jesus comes on the Earth and then He's actually doing things, and in Isaiah 63, He actually says He was alone, like the saints weren't with Him.

and that's the sort of thing that leads me to believe after Jesus returns for the rapture, that's it for Gentiles, no mas.

Because gentiles are shown throughout old testament prophecy to be enemies only, and the parable of the 10 virgins says.. it's too late after the door is closed, and Amos 8, nobody preaches the Word of God after the 6th seal, and in Revelation, once the wrath of God starts, there's no scenes of repentance and faith aside from the 144k, there's just... people hating God and cursing Him.

I hear what you're saying. One possibility is that the rapture isn't Jesus actually coming all the way back to the earth, just to the clouds.

The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

About apocalyptic passages in the Old Testament dealing only with Israel, a possibility is that gentiles who convert after the rapture are considered part of Israel.
"...some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root"

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - New International Version

The Remnant of Israel - I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God...

www.biblegateway.com

But as I said in my first post on this thread, I'm not strongly wedded to pre-trib rapture. Nice chatting with you

 

[Jamdoc]

I hear what you're saying. One possibility is that the rapture isn't Jesus actually coming all the way back to the earth, just to the clouds.

The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

About apocalyptic passages in the Old Testament dealing only with Israel, a possibility is that gentiles who convert after the rapture are considered part of Israel.
"...some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root"

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - New International Version

The Remnant of Israel - I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God...

www.biblegateway.com

But as I said in my first post on this thread, I'm not strongly wedded to pre-trib rapture. Nice chatting with you

How do you explain Isaiah 63 then, the appearance of Jesus is much like Revelation 19, already covered in blood, and He's coming from Edom, not heaven.
and He says He was alone
no saints with Him.

actually this starts in Isaiah 62 to give context check this out

Isaiah 62

11 Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the Lord: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

See what is being said here? That their salvation comes, and their salvation is a person, and He's coming with reward, similar wording to Revelation 22, that the next time Jesus comes His reward is with Him.

continuing in Isaiah 63, where Isaiah encounters Jesus face to face

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

See? He was alone, and while I don't agree that Revelation 19 is when the second coming is, I do agree it's when the saints rejoin Jesus.

I do this to give a time for what Isaiah 63 is referring to a chance to be fulfilled. Jesus treading the winepress of His wrath in Edom alone.

If Jesus comes for a pretrib rapture and then doesn't come back down until Revelation 19.. and goes to Armageddon, NORTH of Jerusalem, then Isaiah 63 doesn't work, and neither does a passage of Zechariah 9

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

See that though?
Jesus seen over them (in the clouds), He blows the trumpet, and then goes south (towards Edom), and His people lifted up as an ensign (up in the sky above the land). So you have the rapture, but Jesus goes south into Edom, and if you connect it with Obadiah 1, then have Him coming back in Isaiah 63, and then Revelation 19, it flows together.

 

[Leaf473]

How do you explain Isaiah 63 then, the appearance of Jesus is much like Revelation 19, already covered in blood, and He's coming from Edom, not heaven.
and He says He was alone
no saints with Him.

actually this starts in Isaiah 62 to give context check this out

Isaiah 62

See what is being said here? That their salvation comes, and their salvation is a person, and He's coming with reward, similar wording to Revelation 22, that the next time Jesus comes His reward is with Him.

continuing in Isaiah 63, where Isaiah encounters Jesus face to face

See? He was alone, and while I don't agree that Revelation 19 is when the second coming is, I do agree it's when the saints rejoin Jesus.

I do this to give a time for what Isaiah 63 is referring to a chance to be fulfilled. Jesus treading the winepress of His wrath in Edom alone.

If Jesus comes for a pretrib rapture and then doesn't come back down until Revelation 19.. and goes to Armageddon, NORTH of Jerusalem, then Isaiah 63 doesn't work, and neither does a passage of Zechariah 9

Zechariah 9

See that though?
Jesus seen over them (in the clouds), He blows the trumpet, and then goes south (towards Edom), and His people lifted up as an ensign (up in the sky above the land). So you have the rapture, but Jesus goes south into Edom, and if you connect it with Obadiah 1, then have Him coming back in Isaiah 63, and then Revelation 19, it flows together.

Lots of great passages in your post!

I'm on a cell phone, so I'll start with Isaiah 63. It looks to me like a description of the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests, from an Israelite perspective. And then of course the future restoration of Israel.

The writer of Revelation is using common language from apocalyptic literature. It doesn't necessarily mean they are the same events imo.

I always like to put some scripture in a post, more from Isaiah 63
O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways,
and harden our heart from your fear?
Return for your servants’ sake,
the tribes of your inheritance.
Your holy people possessed it but a little while.
Our adversaries have trodden down your sanctuary.

Peace be with you

 

[Jamdoc]

Lots of great passages in your post!

I'm on a cell phone, so I'll start with Isaiah 63. It looks to me like a description of the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests, from an Israelite perspective. And then of course the future restoration of Israel.

The writer of Revelation is using common language from apocalyptic literature. It doesn't necessarily mean they are the same events imo.

I always like to put some scripture in a post, more from Isaiah 63
O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways,
and harden our heart from your fear?
Return for your servants’ sake,
the tribes of your inheritance.
Your holy people possessed it but a little while.
Our adversaries have trodden down your sanctuary.

Peace be with you

No, it's about the 2nd coming, it's a conversation between Isaiah and Jesus. Isaiah sees someone coming from Edom, glorious but covered in blood, and Jesus answers him with "I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save" then Isaiah asks another question about why his clothes are covered in blood, and Jesus explains what He had been doing.

Your position is a common error in modern Christianity, to believe that the Old Testament all refers to past events like the Babylonian captivity, but there is a LOT of second coming prophecies contained within the Old Testament prophets, that's why many Pharisees didn't believe Jesus, because they thought it was one coming and didn't see that Messiah would die for our sins and then come down from heaven.

They expected one coming down from heaven, but somehow also understood that He would be born in Bethlehem. so they had hermeneutics failings in how they understood scripture about the Messiah, not understanding how can He come down from heaven surrounded by all the saints on the clouds, how can it be God that comes down from heaven, and how can Messiah be born on Earth in a small village outside of Jerusalem.

 

[Leaf473]

No, it's about the 2nd coming, it's a conversation between Isaiah and Jesus. Isaiah sees someone coming from Edom, glorious but covered in blood, and Jesus answers him with "I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save" then Isaiah asks another question about why his clothes are covered in blood, and Jesus explains what He had been doing.

Your position is a common error in modern Christianity, to believe that the Old Testament all refers to past events like the Babylonian captivity, but there is a LOT of second coming prophecies contained within the Old Testament prophets, that's why many Pharisees didn't believe Jesus, because they thought it was one coming and didn't see that Messiah would die for our sins and then come down from heaven.

They expected one coming down from heaven, but somehow also understood that He would be born in Bethlehem. so they had hermeneutics failings in how they understood scripture about the Messiah, not understanding how can He come down from heaven surrounded by all the saints on the clouds, how can it be God that comes down from heaven, and how can Messiah be born on Earth in a small village outside of Jerusalem.

Well, Isaiah 63 is poetry, as is most of Isaiah. So Yes, it can be read as a dialog between Isaiah and Jesus.

Here's something from Isaiah 2 that is still to come in the future,
It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.

Peace be with you

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, Isaiah 63 is poetry, as is most of Isaiah. So Yes, it can be read as a dialog between Isaiah and Jesus.

Here's something from Isaiah 2 that is still to come in the future,
It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.

Peace be with you

It's prophecy, not poetry, and even the "poetry" like Psalms often talks about prophetic events, like Psalm 22 being about the cross, and Psalm 18 being about the second coming.

 

[Leaf473]

It's prophecy, not poetry, and even the "poetry" like Psalms often talks about prophetic events, like Psalm 22 being about the cross, and Psalm 18 being about the second coming.

I think it is both prophecy and poetry. Another example from Isaiah 13
For the stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going out, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will humble the arrogance of the terrible. 12 I will make people more rare than fine gold, even a person than the pure gold of Ophir.

Note the parallelism where the lines "rhyme" in thought as opposed to sound. And it sounds like it's prophesying the end of the world, though the text says it's about Babylon. Of course, the prophecy could also have more than one fulfillment.

Peace be with you

 

[Jamdoc]

I think it is both prophecy and poetry. Another example from Isaiah 13
For the stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going out, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will humble the arrogance of the terrible. 12 I will make people more rare than fine gold, even a person than the pure gold of Ophir.

Note the parallelism where the lines "rhyme" in thought as opposed to sound. And it sounds like it's prophesying the end of the world, though the text says it's about Babylon. Of course, the prophecy could also have more than one fulfillment.

Peace be with you

Yeah it does mention the babylonians, and medes, which would suggest past fulfillment, but also contains the signs of the Day of the Lord, the 6th seal, so it is likely this will play out again in a more final fulfillment.. We know that Revelation 17 and 18 refer to a future Babylon, because the past Babylon had been destroyed by John's time.

 

[Timtofly]

If the rapture happens and that Jesus then departs from them in order to be alone fulfilling the OT passage you bring up, how could that not be contradicting the following I underlined in the verse below?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Doesn't sound like to me that everyone is ever with the Lord if they are abandoned right after being caught up to Him in the clouds. I take it to mean, from that point on, that they are always where He is at all times after meeting Him in the clouds.

The Lord is the NT and OT term that is all inclusive of the Trinity. Yet Jesus can work separately from the Lord.

That was pointed out on the Cross. The Lord was on the Cross, the whole Trinity, but the body of Jesus was what died. God did not die. The Lord returned to Paradise to be with the thief that day as well as the Holy Spirit. The physical body of Jesus was placed in the tomb. The soul and spirit of Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom and instantly resurrected all those in the grave.

The same thing takes place at the 5th and 6th Seal. The Lord meets the church in the air. The church is glorified in the presence of the whole Trinity. The church will forever be with the Lord, the whole Trinity. Yet Jesus will be on the earth as King. Jesus sets up the throne and temple in Jerusalem before the 7th Seal is opened.

The Seals open the Lamb's book of life. The Lamb's book of life is still sealed until the church is removed and glorified. The 144k are sealed before the Lamb's book is opened.


Once the Lamb's book of life is unsealed, names will be removed. Once a name is removed they are no longer covered by the Atonement Covenant of the Cross. The Seals were never removed at the Cross. The Cross was when all of Adam's flesh were all placed in this Atonement, and from God's perspective the Lamb was slain before creation. From our perspective it was in 30AD. The Lamb's book of life will not be unsealed nor even started until the time of the Day of the Lord.

The 5th and 6th Seal is when the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. The 5th Seal is not about a time of tribulation. The 5th Seal is the putting on of the robe of white, the glorification of the entire church body as one. Those alive on earth, raptured, and those from Paradise who came out of great tribulation, the last 1992 years, not the GT, that is about to start.

Once Jesus sets up His throne in His temple, the 7th Seal is opened, and the time of Jacob's trouble begins, the final harvest, called the GT. This is the sounding of the Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

All flesh will die, but not all will be chosen to live on the earth for the Day of the Lord. The longer the church is on the earth, the more Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be saved.

The 4th Seal has not been opened as that is the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24:29-31. 2 billion people will be killed in this tribulation directed at the church and the entire world. Yet this is still not the GT, because there will be twice as many killed, 4 billion.

And all of this is still not the wrath of God. God's wrath is poured out on those who are alive but removed from the Lamb's book of life, those who gladly receive the mark, and are no longer found in the Lamb's book of life. But names cannot be removed until the 7th Seal is opened. The 7th Seal cannot be removed until after the rapture and Second Coming. The church will not be on the earth when names are being removed. There is no need. The church was the fulness of the Gentiles. The harvest of faith and trust in the Atonement.

Once the world has seen God on the GWT and the church glorified, it is no longer a process of faith. They are either chosen by Jesus as the sheep and wheat, or they are eternally damned and removed from the Lamb's book of life like the goats and the tares. But the goats do not keep living on the earth. They are removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. By the time the 7th Trumpet sounds there will only be thousands left alive. If there are still millions, then the 42 months will happen so those beheaded can remain in the Lamb's book of life. If at the 7th Trumpet, God declares no one is left to be beheaded, that is it. The rest will be killed in the winepress of God's wrath, and the Millennium will begin. But by the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, all will have been removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. These living dead are the dead in Revelation 11:18.

 

[Juan777]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

In Left Behind movies, Gentiles are saved after the Rapture. There are underground churches when persecution ramps up but everything ultimately fails. Normally the movies portray wayward or lukewarm Christians that realize that they should have walked more seriously before the Lord and missed the Rapture. There is also a flood of online and print content that describe the Rapture and will show people how to be saved for people to reference. This will help also help people get a hold on what is going on. So at least initially, I think there will be allot of people who get saved because the Gospel will have a new meaning, importance and even be survival for people to look at.

The Bible only says there is only one type of Gentile who can't get saved after the rapture. It is the Gentile who receives the 666 mark of the best on their forehead or right hand and worship the beast/image. Once that line is crossed there is no possibility of salvation. Gentiles who are saved after the Rapture will refuse this mark and be killed in persecution from this beast.

There are also 144,000 Jews who will be evangelists during this time.

 

[Jamdoc]

In Left Behind movies, Gentiles are saved after the Rapture. There are underground churches when persecution ramps up but everything ultimately fails. Normally the movies portray wayward or lukewarm Christians that realize that they should have walked more seriously before the Lord and missed the Rapture. There is also a flood of online and print content that describe the Rapture and will show people how to be saved for people to reference. This will help also help people get a hold on what is going on. So at least initially, I think there will be allot of people who get saved because the Gospel will have a new meaning, importance and even be survival for people to look at.

The Bible only says there is only one type of Gentile who can't get saved after the rapture. It is the Gentile who receives the 666 mark of the best on their forehead or right hand and worship the beast/image. Once that line is crossed there is no possibility of salvation. Gentiles who are saved after the Rapture will refuse this mark and be killed in persecution from this beast.

There are also 144,000 Jews who will be evangelists during this time.

"In movies"

That's the problem.
In movies, in teachings, etc.
but in the bible? A famine for hearing the words of the Lord after the day of the Lord, and in the parable of the 10 virgins.. the 5 foolish are denied by Christ, not told to come back later, but flat out denied.

Now I don't know if all those teaching materials and bibles will just get raptured with the people but biblically, it seems to be a point of no return.

 

[Juan777]

"In movies"

That's the problem.
In movies, in teachings, etc.
but in the bible? A famine for hearing the words of the Lord after the day of the Lord, and in the parable of the 10 virgins.. the 5 foolish are denied by Christ, not told to come back later, but flat out denied.

Yes, if you miss the Rapture, then you are denied. Every single human being who is on this planet after the Rapture event is denied. It's just that the Christians who thought they would be up but missed it, would feel that shock of being denied while the others in the world would not even be in the know, or may have a peripheral understanding of what went on. However it doesn't mean there is a famine for the words of the Lord, or that the Rapture is the "Day of the Lord" referred to where this famine was mentioned.

Now I don't know if all those teaching materials and bibles will just get raptured with the people but biblically, it seems to be a point of no return.

They will be here, along with the digital archives on the internet. youtube, etc... at least for a time.

 

[dfw69]

Jesus always stands at the door and knocks if any man hears him and opens the door he will sup with him

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, if you miss the Rapture, then you are denied. Every single human being who is on this planet after the Rapture event is denied. It's just that the Christians who thought they would be up but missed it, would feel that shock of being denied while the others in the world would not even be in the know, or may have a peripheral understanding of what went on. However it doesn't mean there is a famine for the words of the Lord, or that the Rapture is the "Day of the Lord" referred to where this famine was mentioned.

[/QUOTE]
It's not given as a temporary denial though, "just wait till later then I'll open up" Jesus says outright "I don't know you" This wasn't a warning about just going through the tribulation, and btw, night time can be used as a metaphor for persecution/tribulation btw, so the parable can be read to be that they all went through persecution (the night), and they lit their lamps (their testimony), and for some of the virgins, their testimony burned out during persecution. They tried to come to Jesus late, Jesus refused them.

and not just "come back later".
and that part is the part that haunts me for those who believe the bible teaches "tribulation saints" because it doesn't.

That is something invented by pretrib teachers in order to explain how there are saints persecuted by antichrist when they think the rapture is pretrib.

They will be here, along with the digital archives on the internet. youtube, etc... at least for a time.

Amos 8

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

Let's look at this first. What is this language like?

Well
Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

so, common theme to the Day of the Lord through all scripture: The sun and moon are darkened, Amos specifies that it is a clear day, it is not clouds. It is also characterized by wailing and mourning, the people who see it and are not raptured during it, know that it is God, that judgement is coming, and they do not repent, they try to hide.
Pretrib usually have to invent some sort of "excuse" for the sudden "left behind" poof.
The bible does not indicate that. The bible indicates that everyone will see this, it will be overt, it will be loud (1 Thessalonians and Matthew 24 feature a trumpet), and nobody will be deceived as to what happened. They know exactly what is happening, and they know that judgement follows...
and I think they know it is too late. If they saw Jesus in the clouds on the day of the Lord and could repent and be saved? They'd probably do that... because at this point, the Gospel will have been spread throughout the world, nobody would have excuse, they will have rejected it. Revelation 14 tells a parallel narrative featuring Angels spreading the gospel, warning against the mark of the beast, and then depicts Jesus on the clouds, doing 2 harvests, the first harvest, done by Jesus, is not put through the wrath of God. the second harvest, the vines of the clusters of the earth, are put through the wrath of God.

Now back to Amos 8, and what happens after the Day of the Lord:

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

I want to emphasize hearing here, it is after the Day of the Lord nobody will preach the Word of God. The preachers of the Word are gone. They have all been taken, both dead and resurrected, and the raptured.

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

They cannot even find the Word of God. That is why I wonder if printed materials and videos will be gone.

Finally, what do they turn to when they cannot find the Gospel anymore?

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

They worship a false god, the sin of Samaria was idolatry, Baal worship, Satan worship. They will worship Antichrist, feeling abandoned by God, and in God's wrath and judgement, they will double down on the worship of Antichrist, seeing him as the only option: to have Satan win. That is why they go to war in Armageddon.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

People are so blinded by the enemy. The Revelation shows two appearances of Lord Jesus. Once He is in the air seated on thr Throne. IMHO this is when we meet Him in the air.
Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The next appearance He is on a white horse
Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And the raptured saints will be with Him.
Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I have pointed this out several times on this forum, but folks refuse to see it.

 

[Jamdoc]

People are so blinded by the enemy. The Revelation shows two appearances of Lord Jesus. Once He is in the air seated on thr Throne. IMHO this is when we meet Him in the air.
Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The next appearance He is on a white horse
Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And the raptured saints will be with Him.
Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I have pointed this out several times on this forum, but folks refuse to see it.

I see it, however...

and I have been pointing out something in Revelation 19 that many people do not see.

Look at the first part, who is all in that vision in heaven.. saints, the 24 elders, the 4 beasts, an angel, and God the Father on the throne.
The Lamb is not there.
They talk about the Lamb.
But they worship God on the throne, they do not worship the Lamb, because He is not there.
Revelation 7 they worship God on the throne, and the Lamb.
Revelation 19 they only worship God on the throne.

Now that famous "heaven opened" passage.

Where was John?

Everyone thinks John was witnessing from Earth, looking up to heaven, and seeing them open and Jesus and the saints ride down from heaven on white flying horses.. very popular imagery.
It's wrong though.

John was witnessing from heaven, and in heaven, the Lamb was not there. The Lamb was on Earth, John saw heaven opened, and saw Jesus on a white horse... on Earth, already stained in blood, from treading the winepress of His wrath, read Zechariah 9:14-17, Obadiah 1, and Isaiah 62 and 63, and make the connection.
Jesus came down to Earth, blowing the trumpet, resurrecting and rapturing..... then He went south to Edom, killed all the descendants of Esau for their participating in the invasion that results in the Abomination of Desolation, because Esau was Jacob's brother, Esau should have stood by his brother, not helped his oppressors, then He comes back from Edom, where Isaiah (and the other saints) rejoin him.

It is not that Jesus comes down, and then goes back up, and then comes back down again, it's that Jesus comes down, the saints go up, Jesus goes to do things while the saints are in heaven, and then when the time is right, the saints rejoin Jesus.

It's the only way that Jesus' statements in Isaiah 63 can be true, about being alone while treading the winepress of His wrath.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Look at the first part, who is all in that vision in heaven.. saints, the 24 elders, the 4 beasts, an angel, and God the Father on the throne.

It says God, not the Father, just God. Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit are one God.