Rapture Believers, question about post-rapture faith

DavidPT

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Christians are not appointed to the time of God wrath. The rapture is the means by which Christians are spared going through that time.

Turning to Jesus after the rapture takes place, a person can still be saved, but since the rapture will have already taken place, those post rapture new believers in Christ will end up going through the great tribulation.

To them who take part in the rapture, it completes our salvation which is two part...

- redemption of the soul which takes place immediately upon turning to Jesus for forgivenenss of our sins.

- redemption of our bodies, which takes place in being changed a twinkling of an eye, if alive. Or for them who sleep in Christ, the resurrection of the their bodies into eternal life incorruptible bodies to reunite with their souls.


God's wrath is not during great tribulation, it is after great tribulation. Numerous passages make this crystal clear. Therefore, one can't apply God has not appointed us to wrath with that of a rapture preceding great tribulation. The day of the Lord involves God's wrath. The day of the Lord is after great tribulation, not prior to it nor during it instead.
The day of the Lord involves darkness, exactly what is depicted in Matthew 24:29 and that that verse places this after great tribulation.

Though, you and others like you are able to deceive some with your unscriptural pretrib rapture nonsense, you're unable to deceive all of us. Even in 2 Thessalanians 2:3 Paul warned us---Let no man deceive you by any means. This means there are deceivers and there are the deceived who are being deceived by them. But there would not be any deceived except the deceivers themselves if they would simply quit listening to the deceivers. As if it makes sense that what Paul really meant here is, don't let any man deceive you by any means by insisting there is no pretrib rapture.
 
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Douggg

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God's wrath is not during great tribulation, it is after great tribulation.
The vials of God's wrath are poured out during the great tribulation.

The day of the Lord involves darkness, exactly what is depicted in Matthew 24:29 and that that verse places this after great tribulation.
Matthew 24:29 says after the tribulation of those days - not after the great tribulation of those days. Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.



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Jamdoc

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Christians are not appointed to the time of God wrath. The rapture is the means by which Christians are spared going through that time.

Turning to Jesus after the rapture takes place, a person can still be saved, but since the rapture will have already taken place, those post rapture new believers in Christ will end up going through the great tribulation.

To them who take part in the rapture, it completes our salvation which is two part...

- redemption of the soul which takes place immediately upon turning to Jesus for forgivenenss of our sins.

- redemption of our bodies, which takes place in being changed a twinkling of an eye, if alive. Or for them who sleep in Christ, the resurrection of the their bodies into eternal life incorruptible bodies to reunite with their souls.

My understanding is that it's because God hasn't destined us for wrath.

I'm sure this passage has been brought up many times, from 1 Thessalonians,
For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

It's kind of like Rahab. Other people in Jericho probably could have repented after the Israelites surrounded the city. But they still got killed, where rahab ends up as an ancestor of Jesus!

So this is where I ask you, how is Great Tribulation (persecution), God's wrath, that is the actions of men, against the people of God. Are you saying that during the 5th seal, as people who's souls go to heaven and cry out to God for vengeance, are people that suffered the wrath of God?

God's wrath is not marked until Revelation 6:17, at the 6th seal, which is shown with the same signs that Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-30, that is, after the tribulation.

The vials of God's wrath are poured out during the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 says after the tribulation of those days - not after the great tribulation of those days. Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

The vials are poured out after the great tribulation, same with the trumpets.

Revelation 7 has the raptured saints and John describes them as having come OUT of Great Tribulation.
before the 7th seal, before the trumpets.
Revelation 15 also has the saints in heaven, having overcome the mark of the beast (after Jesus appeared on the clouds in Revelation 14:14-20)... before the vials.

That's twice that we're shown saints in heaven after persecution, but before the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is not great tribulation, the wrath of God is the vengeance for great tribulation.
Jesus doesn't 'beat His bride" no, but other people do, and then Jesus is an angry groom stormily coming against the people who beat and abused His bride to be, He's angry and He's coming with way worse than a baseball bat, worse than a shotgun, for the people who attacked His betrothed.
Let's not forget that the leader of these people who beat His betrothed also impersonated Him, divided His land, and is killing and enslaving His people.
 
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Douggg

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So this is where I ask you, how is Great Tribulation (persecution), God's wrath, that is the actions of men, against the people of God. Are you saying that during the 5th seal, as people who's souls go to heaven and cry out to God for vengeance, are people that suffered the wrath of God?
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
God's wrath is not marked until Revelation 6:17, at the 6th seal, which is shown with the same signs that Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-30, that is, after the tribulation.

It is the Lamb's wrath in Revelation 6:16-17, in response to the martyrs plea for justice. It will be executed when Jesus returns.

God's wrath in the vials is poured out beginning shortly after Satan is cast down to earth having a time/times/half time left.

Jesus doesn't 'beat His bride" no, but other people do, and then Jesus is an angry groom stormily coming against the people who beat and abused His bride to be, He's angry and He's coming with way worse than a baseball bat, worse than a shotgun, for the people who attacked His betrothed.

The bride of Christ does not go through the great tribulation, but is called out of the world before the great tribulation begins.
 
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Jamdoc

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9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


It is the Lamb's wrath in Revelation 6:16-17, in response to the martyrs plea for justice. It will be executed when Jesus returns.

Problem is you don't see that Jesus returns first, then there is wrath. You see Jesus rapturing without returning, then the Great Tribulation/Wrath of God which you claim to separate but it's clear in your doctrine you still cling to them being the same, and then Jesus returning after the wrath of God.
Read Psalm 18
What you see is, persecution, people calling out to God, God coming down (interestingly enough, with an earthquake, and darkness, same signs as the 6th seal), and then wrath on the Earth.
It's the same consistent picture across the entire bible when it comes to the end times. Persecution, the signs of the 6th seal, the deliverance of the people of God, and then the wrath of God.

Even the examples Jesus gave for the rapture, Noah and Lot, endured persecution, and then were rescued just before the wrath of God.
and interestingly enough and tying into the OP's target....

those who were not rescued just before the wrath of God.. perished. There were no people rescued after Noah and his family.
no people from Sodom rescued after Lot and his family (and his wife looked back and she perished too)

God's wrath in the vials is poured out beginning shortly after Satan is cast down to earth having a time/times/half time left.

That's a Chronology error, which to make that error you have to have Jesus' first act as King of the Earth being giving authority back to Satan after Revelation 11:15
the fact that Satan can give HIS authority to the Antichrist in Revelation 13:2 should clue in that this is not after Revelation 11:15 but before, Revelation's Chronology restarts in chapter 12, the biggest clue should be that it goes back to the birth of Jesus.

The bride of Christ does not go through the great tribulation, but is called out of the world before the great tribulation begins.

There is no verse of scripture to support that rapture happens before tribulation.
only before wrath
there is much scripture to supports that we go through tribulation
and much scripture to support that we are hidden from wrath.

Whether we are hidden on Earth from wrath as post trib believe, or taken to heaven before wrath as pre-wrath believe, is a matter of interpretation, obviously I believe the pre-wrath position and find confirmation in Revelation 7 and 15 having saints in heaven, both times after persecution (5th seal, which Revelation 7 calls great tribulation, and Mark of the Beast in Revelation 15) after an event where the Lord is on the clouds (6th seal compared with Matthew 24:29-30, and Revelation 14 outright shows it), and both times before the wrath of God (the trumpets and vials, Revelation 15 is explicit that these saints are in heaven while the vials are coming out of the temple in heaven)
all of us would agree that somehow we are not targets of God's wrath.
the key differences are understanding the difference between tribulation and wrath, and how we are protected from wrath.

But that's an aside.

The real question, is after either a pre trib or pre wrath rapture, whether gentiles are still saved (you can find support for the argument that Israel still receives salvation because of the 5th trumpet).

I see biblical evidence for no, that once the rapture happens, all the gentiles that will be saved, have been saved. and so all the rest of the gentiles are hardened against God and curse Him.

Pre trib.. is absolutely obligated to believe in post rapture salvation, because otherwise they have scripture problems about the antichrist waging war against the saints.
 
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Douggg

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That's a Chronology error, which to make that error you have to have Jesus' first act as King of the Earth being giving authority back to Satan after Revelation 11:15
the fact that Satan can give HIS authority to the Antichrist in Revelation 13:2 should clue in that this is not after Revelation 11:15 but before, Revelation's Chronology restarts in chapter 12, the biggest clue should be that it goes back to the birth of Jesus.
You should work on how to make timeline charts - because I have no idea of what you are talking about.
 
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Leaf473

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So this is where I ask you, how is Great Tribulation (persecution), God's wrath, that is the actions of men, against the people of God.
Umm... Here?
Romans 1
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
 
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Jamdoc

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You should work on how to make timeline charts - because I have no idea of what you are talking about.

Just divide Revelation in half

Chapters 4-11 are 1 telling of events
Chapters 12-20 are the same events, different details.

as another poster recently made a thread comparing the 7 trumpets and 7 vials to the 2 dreams that Pharaoh had in Joseph's time, the kine and the ears of corn, they both represented the same 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine.
 
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Jamdoc

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Umm... Here?
Romans 1
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

That's not equating the wrath of God to tribulation.
 
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Leaf473

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That's not equating the wrath of God to tribulation.
It looks like the same thing to me. Maybe I'm not understanding your question.

21For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

Peace be with you :heart:
Matthew 24 NLT
 
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Jamdoc

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It looks like the same thing to me. Maybe I'm not understanding your question.

21For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

Peace be with you :heart:
Matthew 24 NLT

Think about the Holocaust. If Hitler had been allowed to continue indefinitely, he could have wiped out the Jews.
The Holocaust is perhaps, the greatest and clearest picture of the Great Tribulation in fact.
It is religious persecution.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
so first off, these martyrs are asking how long before God judges the Earth, meaning.. God has not judged the Earth yet. The wrath of God is, after God judges the Earth (you don't sentence until after you judge)

Next
Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So before the trumpets and vials, which are the wrath of God (see Revelation 15:1 and 15:7), they have come out of great tribulation.. which... would be consistent with what I'm saying great tribulation is, and that is religious persecution.

It'd also be consistent with the 6th seal having the same signs that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:29-31, which Jesus says happens after the tribulation.
and nothing like the trumpets and vials are mentioned in Matthew 24.
Jesus goes up to the 6th seal describing things like the first 5 seals, false christs, wars, famines, pestilences, persecution... and then.. He returns.

and what Jesus spends the rest of Matthew 24 and 25 talking about, is depicting what happens after His return. The wicked servant who relented, took the mark of the beast, and was eating and drinking with drunkards and persecuting his brethren... cut to pieces, his portion with the hypocrites. The 5 foolish virgins who weren't prepared.. turned away when they tried to come late (which ties into the OP's question, why are they turned away if salvation continues after the rapture? They're not told to come back later, they're turned away), the parable of the talents, the servant who didn't trust his master and therefore buried his talent, cast into outer darkness, and the sheep and the goats, where the selfish goats did not share charity with those who were in need during tribulation, a difficult time.

In other words what Jesus was depicting was the wrath of God, and final judgement.
But it was all after His return
before His return it's the seals, and things that men do.
Revelation 6 might as well be John's version of the Olivet Discourse.
 
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Leaf473

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Think about the Holocaust. If Hitler had been allowed to continue indefinitely, he could have wiped out the Jews.
The Holocaust is perhaps, the greatest and clearest picture of the Great Tribulation in fact.
It is religious persecution.

Revelation 6

so first off, these martyrs are asking how long before God judges the Earth, meaning.. God has not judged the Earth yet. The wrath of God is, after God judges the Earth (you don't sentence until after you judge)

Next
Revelation 7


So before the trumpets and vials, which are the wrath of God (see Revelation 15:1 and 15:7), they have come out of great tribulation.. which... would be consistent with what I'm saying great tribulation is, and that is religious persecution.

It'd also be consistent with the 6th seal having the same signs that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:29-31, which Jesus says happens after the tribulation.
and nothing like the trumpets and vials are mentioned in Matthew 24.
Jesus goes up to the 6th seal describing things like the first 5 seals, false christs, wars, famines, pestilences, persecution... and then.. He returns.

and what Jesus spends the rest of Matthew 24 and 25 talking about, is depicting what happens after His return. The wicked servant who relented, took the mark of the beast, and was eating and drinking with drunkards and persecuting his brethren... cut to pieces, his portion with the hypocrites. The 5 foolish virgins who weren't prepared.. turned away when they tried to come late (which ties into the OP's question, why are they turned away if salvation continues after the rapture? They're not told to come back later, they're turned away), the parable of the talents, the servant who didn't trust his master and therefore buried his talent, cast into outer darkness, and the sheep and the goats, where the selfish goats did not share charity with those who were in need during tribulation, a difficult time.

In other words what Jesus was depicting was the wrath of God, and final judgement.
But it was all after His return
before His return it's the seals, and things that men do.
Revelation 6 might as well be John's version of the Olivet Discourse.
So... the wrath of God never causes tribulation?

Jeremiah 7
Therefore the Lord God says: “Behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man, on animal, on the trees of the field, and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and will not be quenched.”
______________
Edit: changed the Divine name to God in the quote.
 
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Jamdoc

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So... the wrath of God never causes tribulation?

Jeremiah 7
Therefore the Lord Yahweh says: “Behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man, on animal, on the trees of the field, and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and will not be quenched.”

God's wrath is God's wrath, tribulation is persecution both other people, unless you believe God is taking out His wrath on the martyrs of the 5th seal, then the 5th seal, which is the great tribulation that John says the saints overcame in Revelation 7, then the martyrs went through great tribulation, not the wrath of God.

You keep quoting verses specifically about God's wrath, without finding verses that equate God's wrath with tribulation.

like so where I can show that tribulation refers to persecution by men

Revelation 2
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Is God taking out His wrath on the Church of Smyrna? No. Jesus is encouraging them through persecution that they go through at the hands of men, notably false Jews who are of the Synagogue of Satan.

or hey, Revelation 1
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
How is John our companion in tribulation? John was exiled to Patmos, who exiled him, the wrath of God? No. The Romans, people. It is .. religious persecution.

Or Jesus does this equation too
Matthew 13
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Jesus equates the two God's not pouring His wrath on someone who received His word with joy, but other people will persecute them and their faith can break.

and let's look at 1 verse, multiple translations
Matthew 24:9
KJV which is what I usually use
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

ESV
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
So, tribulation is referring to other men hating you for Jesus' sake and killing you.

NIV
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Here at least, the word translated as tribulation, is interchangable with a word for persecution.

They're not delivered up to the wrath of God, they're delivered up to persecution.

again, a key clue is that Jesus said that the sun and moon would darken after the tribulation, and when do the sun and moon darken?
At the 6th seal, before any of the things said to be God's wrath.
 
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Leaf473

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God's wrath is God's wrath, tribulation is persecution both other people, unless you believe God is taking out His wrath on the martyrs of the 5th seal, then the 5th seal, which is the great tribulation that John says the saints overcame in Revelation 7, then the martyrs went through great tribulation, not the wrath of God.

You keep quoting verses specifically about God's wrath, without finding verses that equate God's wrath with tribulation.

like so where I can show that tribulation refers to persecution by men

Revelation 2

Is God taking out His wrath on the Church of Smyrna? No. Jesus is encouraging them through persecution that they go through at the hands of men, notably false Jews who are of the Synagogue of Satan.

or hey, Revelation 1

How is John our companion in tribulation? John was exiled to Patmos, who exiled him, the wrath of God? No. The Romans, people. It is .. religious persecution.

Or Jesus does this equation too
Matthew 13

Jesus equates the two God's not pouring His wrath on someone who received His word with joy, but other people will persecute them and their faith can break.

and let's look at 1 verse, multiple translations
Matthew 24:9
KJV which is what I usually use


ESV

So, tribulation is referring to other men hating you for Jesus' sake and killing you.

NIV

Here at least, the word translated as tribulation, is interchangable with a word for persecution.

They're not delivered up to the wrath of God, they're delivered up to persecution.

again, a key clue is that Jesus said that the sun and moon would darken after the tribulation, and when do the sun and moon darken?
At the 6th seal, before any of the things said to be God's wrath.
Well, Matthew 24 comes to mind,
Pray that your flight will not be in the winter nor on a Sabbath, 21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

So in that situation, the tribulation is something that could cause the death of all humans and animals.

Peace be with you :heart:
 
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Jamdoc

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Well, Matthew 24 comes to mind,
Pray that your flight will not be in the winter nor on a Sabbath, 21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

So in that situation, the tribulation is something that could cause the death of all humans and animals.

Peace be with you :heart:

He's referring to the elect in this case, they wouldn't survive.
 
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Leaf473

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He's referring to the elect in this case, they wouldn't survive.
Well, I guess that's where we read it differently. That phrase "All flesh" (translated as "no flesh" above) refers to all humans, possibly animals too, imo. At least, that's how it's used here in Isaiah 40

The Lord’s glory shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.
 
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Jamdoc

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Well, I guess that's where we read it differently. That phrase "All flesh" (translated as "no flesh" above) refers to all humans, possibly animals too, imo. At least, that's how it's used here in Isaiah 40

The Lord’s glory shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.

There has also been speculation on what the nature of the Mark of the Beast is and why people can't repent from it, things like transhumanism or DNA modification or whatnot. So it could also be related to that.

But where Jesus has the more dire warnings is when He breaks off into parables AFTER talking about His return.
and that ties into OP's question, about salvation after the rapture. Jesus portrays His return as something kind of severe, like that's a point of no return.
 
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Leaf473

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There has also been speculation on what the nature of the Mark of the Beast is and why people can't repent from it, things like transhumanism or DNA modification or whatnot. So it could also be related to that.

But where Jesus has the more dire warnings is when He breaks off into parables AFTER talking about His return.
and that ties into OP's question, about salvation after the rapture. Jesus portrays His return as something kind of severe, like that's a point of no return.
Maybe we're understanding the OP's question differently, then. I was understanding it to be salvation after the rapture.

After the tribulation, things wind up very fast, it looks like:
But immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Peace be with you :heart:
 
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Jamdoc

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Maybe we're understanding the OP's question differently, then. I was understanding it to be salvation after the rapture.

After the tribulation, things wind up very fast, it looks like:
But immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Peace be with you :heart:

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Same thing according to Paul

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Same thing according to Paul

Titus 2, and mind you I see this one all the time with pastors saying our blessed hope is the pretribulation rapture, but what is it in the text?
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Same thing according to Paul

and....
1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Same thing according to Paul

literally nowhere does Paul teach the rapture and second coming as separate things.

and if you look at Matthew 24:29-31 without the toxic teaching of "the Olivet Discourse was for unbelieving Jews that won't even read it", it's the same thing according to Jesus too, that's what the Parable of the 10 virgins even refers to.

That the 5 wise virgins were taken in for celebration, while the 5 foolish tried to come in later and Jesus refused them and said He did not know them. Not come back later, not oh I know you but just wait until the tribulation is over go get your heads cut off or something"
but He said He didn't know them, after they tried to come to Him.
It was too late for them to be saved.
 
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Leaf473

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I hear what you're saying. At the same time, it's hard for me to reconcile a single coming with passages like Zechariah 14:

His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east.

If the family of Egypt doesn’t go up, and doesn’t come, neither will it rain on them. This will be the plague with which the Lord will strike the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of tents.

Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of Armies; and all those who sacrifice will come and take of them, and cook in them.
 
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