Rapture Before Wrath

[iamlamad]

The statement below is a false assumption that negates everything that follows it in this post.

"Here's another scripture about the rapture happening before wrath (tribulation). "

Those promoting the pretrib version of timing often time label the entire tribulation as God's wrath. However, this is an assumption that does not match up with scripture.

Revelation 12:12 clearly indicates that at least part of the tribulation is Satan's wrath.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

We also know there are those labeled by some as "tribulation saints" who are beheaded because of their witness for Christ. Surely this is not part of God's wrath.

A great deal of this confusion is produced by an early reference to wrath in Revelation chapter 6, which is a preview of things to come. This section of scripture is describing the events at the battle of Armageddon when Christ returns at a later point in the book.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God's wrath will be poured out on those who are not in-Christ at the Second Coming.

A study of the "Day of the Lord" in the Old Testament provides us with a picture of God's Wrath.
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Isa_2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isa_13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isa_13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa_34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Jer_46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Lam_2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Eze_13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

Eze_30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Joe_1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joe_2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joe_2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe_2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joe_3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Amo_5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Amo_5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Oba_1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zep_1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Zep_1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

Zep_1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zep_1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zep_2:2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

Zep_2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Zec_14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Mal_4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

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2nd Peter chapter 3 shows the timing and conseguences of God's wrath on the Day of the Lord. This is the final day of judgement in which God and Christ will burn up this old world.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Labeling the entire tribulation period as God's wrath by those promoting the pretrib doctrine, does not match up with scripture.

It matches perfectlly for those that believe what is written. John was RIGHT On in saying the day of His wrath HAS COME. Shortly after John wrote that, the first trumpet judgment came, WITH GOD'S WRATH as a part of the Day of the Lord. This is proven in Joel 1 where Joel describes almost word for word what the first trumpet judgment does, and calls it THE DAY OF THE LORD.

Make no mistake, the trumpet judgments are a part of the DAY - for the DAY began with the great earthquake at the 6th seal. Therefore it is just silly to say that "part of the tribulation is Satan's wrath.." OF COURSE Satan will be cast down and with great wrath, and will use his wrath through the man of sin turned beast to MURDER the saints. But while Satan's wrath is at its peak, SO IS GOD'S WRATH in the vials.

The truth is, God's wrath is throughout the entire 70th week, and during the last half, both Satan's wrath and God's wrath will be felt on earth.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Bible2 wrote,
Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Of course this is utter and complete nonsense, NOT according to scripture at all.

God the Father's wrath is poured out in the vials, then after, Jesus comes to fight the battle of Armageddon and He also has wrath. Jesus will come to FIGHT, not to get His saints. He will have come BEFORE the 70th week to GET his saints, then AFTER the 70th week WITH His saints.

John shows us clearly that the marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. Bible2 IGNORES this truth. He will MISS the marraige and supper.

It is beyond preposterous that the marriage will take place IN THE AIR. Many have been to HEAVEN and seen the tables spread IN HEAVEN in preparation for the supper. It is all ready, and has been ready. Each person will have a place to sit, with their NAME on it. Again, more than one person has seen these tables and place settings all ready for us.

LAMAD

 

[Manasseh_]

using MATT 25 is the wrong thing for a pretribber to use to prove a pretrib rapture...........

the parables as with a number of other parables from Christ all show that both the righteous and wicked remain together until Christ returns only once and separates the wicked from the righteous

the five foolish virgins separated from the wise
the diligent servants rewarded and the wicked servant judged in the parable of the talents
and the sheep are separated from the goats

these events occur at one return and are not separated by any long length of time

 

[Danoh]

Using ANY passages outside of Romans thru Philemon as a means of lending support of a Pre-Trib Rapture, other than in contrast to the Tribulation, is off base.

The Tribulation is Israel's 5th Course of Judgement under the Law; the time of Jacob's Trouble, that great and notable Day of the LORD'S Wrath through which He will purge the rebelious of that nation from the righteous within that nation - both their righteous together with their rebelious will undergo said hour, Lev. 24; Mal. 3 & 4; Matt. 3; Heb. 2 & 6; James 1; etc.

Thus, Daniel's prayer according to the Law, in Daniel 9.

While the Body; never a part of said Law Covenant, but instead, under Grace, has been delivered ftom this "wrath to come," Rom. 5; 1 Thess. 1; 2 Thess. 2, etc.

The Body being those saved this side of its first Body member: the Apostle Paul, 1 Tim. 1, wether Jew or Gentile, 1 Cor. 12, etc.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 721:

This is proven in Joel 1 where Joel describes almost word for word what the first trumpet judgment does, and calls it THE DAY OF THE LORD.

Are you thinking of Joel 1:18-20? If so, note that it is a different event than the first trumpet of the future tribulation (Revelation 8:7). For the latter won't include all of the trees being burnt up (Joel 1:19b), or the rivers of waters being dried up (Joel 1:20). Instead, at the time of the first trumpet, only 1/3 of the trees will be burnt up (Revelation 8:7). And the rivers of waters won't be affected until the 3rd trumpet, which won't dry any of them up, but instead will make only 1/3 of them poisonous (Revelation 8:10-11).

Joel 1:18-20 could refer to an ancient, severe drought, and resulting wildfires, which affected the Israelites in their land.

Similarly, the subsequent verses of Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), which won't start until sometime after (as in only a few years after) the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and to the land, can mean that it is referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am": H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew: "chatsats": H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets: H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like how, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

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iamlamad said in post 722:

John shows us clearly that the marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. Bible2 IGNORES this truth.

Please see post 712 above, beginning with the 2nd section, and to the end of that post.

 

[iamlamad]

using MATT 25 is the wrong thing for a pretribber to use to prove a pretrib rapture...........

the parables as with a number of other parables from Christ all show that both the righteous and wicked remain together until Christ returns only once and separates the wicked from the righteous

the five foolish virgins separated from the wise
the diligent servants rewarded and the wicked servant judged in the parable of the talents
and the sheep are separated from the goats

these events occur at one return and are not separated by any long length of time

Not a problem: you are only MISSING Christ coming FOR His bride, which event will happen BEFORE the 70th week. Notice 1 Thes. 5. Paul's rapture comes as the trigger for the Day of wrath.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Using ANY passages outside of Romans thru Philemon as a means of lending support of a Pre-Trib Rapture, other than in contrast to the Tribulation, is off base.

The Tribulation is Israel's 5th Course of Judgement under the Law; the time of Jacob's Trouble, that great and notable Day of the LORD'S Wrath through which He will purge the rebelious of that nation from the righteous within that nation - both their righteous together with their rebelious will undergo said hour, Lev. 24; Mal. 3 & 4; Matt. 3; Heb. 2 & 6; James 1; etc.

Thus, Daniel's prayer according to the Law, in Daniel 9.

While the Body; never a part of said Law Covenant, but instead, under Grace, has been delivered ftom this "wrath to come," Rom. 5; 1 Thess. 1; 2 Thess. 2, etc.

The Body being those saved this side of its first Body member: the Apostle Paul, 1 Tim. 1, wether Jew or Gentile, 1 Cor. 12, etc.

Trying to find something about the Gentile church of today in Daniel is FAR "offbase." Daniel is writing about HIS people.

You are right; Paul was the ONLY man who received revelation knowledge of the rapture, but we can also find proof of a pretrib rapture in REvelation.

LAMAD

 

[Rev20]

Not a problem: you are only MISSING Christ coming FOR His bride, which event will happen BEFORE the 70th week. Notice 1 Thes. 5. Paul's rapture comes as the trigger for the Day of wrath.
LAMAD

What does this mean?

"And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." -- Mark 13:20


.

 

[iamlamad]

What does this mean?

"And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." -- Mark 13:20


.

IN THE FUTURE, during the FUTURE 70th week of Daniel, (7th seal to the 7th vial) there will be days of great tribulation, caused by the wrath of Satan working through the Beast and False Prophet. God has given this Beast 42 months of authority on earth. When Jesus said He would SHORTEN those days of GT, it only means that the days of GT will not continue on for the entire 42 months, or last half of the week. Somewhere during that last half of the FUTURE week, God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath, which will have the effect of stopping the Beast in his tracks, so to speak, and will prevent he and his armies from further murders of the saints. His armies will be rendered helpless.

The days of tribulation from the Beast and false prophet will begin shortly after the midpoint abomination, and will continue to some UNKNOWN point late in the last 42 months of the 70th week. In REvelation these days will begin in chapter 15 and continue to chapter 16. The image and mark will not be established until AFTER the warning given in chapter 14.

LAMAD

 

[Rev20]

IN THE FUTURE, during the FUTURE 70th week of Daniel, (7th seal to the 7th vial) there will be days of great tribulation, caused by the wrath of Satan working through the Beast and False Prophet. God has given this Beast 42 months of authority on earth. When Jesus said He would SHORTEN those days of GT, it only means that the days of GT will not continue on for the entire 42 months, or last half of the week. Somewhere during that last half of the FUTURE week, God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath, which will have the effect of stopping the Beast in his tracks, so to speak, and will prevent he and his armies from further murders of the saints. His armies will be rendered helpless.

The days of tribulation from the Beast and false prophet will begin shortly after the midpoint abomination, and will continue to some UNKNOWN point late in the last 42 months of the 70th week. In REvelation these days will begin in chapter 15 and continue to chapter 16. The image and mark will not be established until AFTER the warning given in chapter 14.

LAMAD

Would you please provide scriptural references to assist us in understanding your interpretation? Most of us are hesitant to believe any interpretation unless it can be clearly documented in the Holy Scripture and/or historical records. Thanks


.

 

[Danoh]

Trying to find something about the Gentile church of today in Daniel is FAR "offbase." Daniel is writing about HIS people.

You are right; Paul was the ONLY man who received revelation knowledge of the rapture, but we can also find proof of a pretrib rapture in REvelation.

LAMAD

I'd respectfully have to differ with your assertion that Revelation touches on the Pre-Trib Rapture, as Revelation is an exposition on Daniel's 70th Week UNDER THE LAW - John was a "minister of the Circumcision," Gal. 2:7-9.

But that's between you and I for exploration, if you're willing, as others - even non Mid-Acts Dispensationalists - will right off gainsay, rather than explore its' validity...

 

[Manasseh_]

Not a problem: you are only MISSING Christ coming FOR His bride, which event will happen BEFORE the 70th week. Notice 1 Thes. 5. Paul's rapture comes as the trigger for the Day of wrath.

LAMAD

actually it is a problem for pretrib , that's evident in this kind of reply .........."not a problem" is all you can respond with then go off on a tangent with some other topic having nothing to do with the point made about the parables........

I'm not MISSING anything because I didn't make reference to Christ coming for his bride
I wasn't making any point about the 70th week
I wasn't making any point about what Paul wrote in 1Thess 5
I wasn't making any point about what triggers the Day of Wrath

a simple comment about certain parables and how they contradict pretrib's false doctrine..........another of a number of problems for the pretrib doctrine that pretribbers are unable to explain

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 726:

. . . you are only MISSING Christ coming FOR His bride . . .

Note that Jesus' coming FOR his bride and WITH his bride will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

*******

iamlamad said in post 727:

Trying to find something about the Gentile church of today in Daniel is FAR "offbase." Daniel is writing about HIS people.

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

iamlamad said in post 727:

Paul was the ONLY man who received revelation knowledge of the rapture . . .

Do you exclude Jesus? Also, are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 15:51? If so, note that Paul didn't call the rapture itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51, for Jesus had already taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery shown in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (cf. John 11:26) was the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal physical bodies at the time that dead believers will be resurrected into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). It is only after this occurs that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

 

[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 728:

What does this mean?

"And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." -- Mark 13:20

Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

Mark 13:20 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that the time had been shortened compared with the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12. For they can be the shortened time, compared with some longer period in which all flesh on the earth would die.

 

[iamlamad]

Would you please provide scriptural references to assist us in understanding your interpretation? Most of us are hesitant to believe any interpretation unless it can be clearly documented in the Holy Scripture and/or historical records. Thanks


.

I don't understand why I should spoon feed you guys. You should have learned to read in grade school.

It was Daniel that said that an event would stop the daily sacrifices at the exact midpoint of the 70th week. In the KJV that word is "midst" and comes from a Hebrew word mean to divide in half. You should understand, to divide an apple in half, first you have to have a whole apple. If you attempt to divide half of an apple in half, you end up with quarters, not halves.

I was just minding my own business, reading Daniel 9:27, and when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" the word of the Lord came to me and I heard His voice and His words: "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." He then told me HOW to find it. He ended by saying, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'" When He said that, I instantly knew WHY I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." It was because God had used the same "marker" as for the midpoint.

I found the exact midpoint, since He told me how to find it, "clearly marked" with a 7: the 7th trumpet. I instantly turned to the 7th vial and read "it is done." Another translation reads "it is finished." I quickly turned to the 7th seal and read about the 30 minutes of silence. I knew I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

It was Jesus Himself that told us the days of great tribulation HE spoke of would begin AFTER the abomination event that would divide the week.

If you study Revelation 13 - 16, you will find that the days of great tribulation really get tough after the false prophet shows up and the image and mark are established - AFTER Revelation chapter 14. So the days of really bad tribulation will be after Rev. 14 up to the vials in chapter 16.

If you will notice, Jesus told those living in Judea to FLEE the moment they see the abomination. Paul tells us what to look for: the man of sin entering the most holy place in the temple and declaring HE is the God they should worship. When those in Judea see this, they are to RUN for their lives. We see that fleeing begin in Rev. 12:6. This verse will be one second or so after the abomination. When the man of sin enters the temple, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that event on earth.

Matthew 27 gives us a clue, when he wrote "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." God raised up some of the elders of the Old Covenant when Jesus rose. They got their resurrection body way back then. We can guess that Adam and Abraham were among them. It is my guess that they are the 24 elders John saw around the throne. My point is, when God raises bodies that have long since turned to dust, Matthew shows us it will cause a great earthquake. Imagine, for a moment, the body of Adam. Some of the atoms (or perhaps Quarks) that once made up his body could have been many miles from his burial site. Some could have been a mile deep. Remember, he was before the flood. In ONE INSTANT of time, all those atoms or quarks came together to form his body once again. It caused a great earthquake.

When the dead in Christ rise, it will be untold MILLIONS rising - and that all around this planet. Many of them have been dead for thousands of years. This event will cause a great, worldwide earthquake. This earthquake is the very same as Paul's "sudden destruction," that is the beginning salvo of the Day of the Lord, STILL FUTURE.

We find this same earthquake at the 6th seal, and we find the start of the day of Wrath there also. The very fact that the church is still her is conclusive proof that the rapture - PAUL's rapture - is still future. Not to mention, NONE of the trumpet judgments have happened yet. They are still future.

Of course you can ignore all this, and ignore Paul's rapture, and find yourself left behind. It will be YOUR OWN DOING.

Are you paying attention? Earthquakes have multiplied exponentially. We have just experienced the second of four blood red moons, with an eclipse of the sun due between the middle two blood red moons. Remember the words of Joel: the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before that great and dreadful day of the Lord.

We are seeing the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. We are VERY CLOSE to Paul's rapture (which will come before the Day of the Lord) and the start of the real Day of the Lord.

Have you understood the Beast with the 7 heads? Think who in history and complete authority over Israel: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, MedoPersia, Greece (the five who had fallen) and then Rome. Each of these empires had total control over Israel during their days. Germany and Hitler were future to John and remained only a very small time. The Beast of Revelation is still future, but the world is falling in place.

Remember the one head that received a deadly wound? Keep in mind, a "head" is a mountain or significant nation or empire with a "king." Where today was the ancient empire of Babylon? It is Iraq today. Did Iraq just receive a deadly wound and her "king" put to death? John tells us that the deadly wound was healed. I fully expect Iraq to fall to Muslim extremists soon. That will her her deadly wound healed. The Beast will take out three nations and three kings, but probably not until AFTER Paul's rapture. Perhaps it will be Iraq, Iran and turkey defeated and then joining forces to begin. It is just a guess.

WE are very close to the end of this age. You can poke fun at dispensations, but they are the truth of the word of God. We are in a dispensation: the age of grace, or the church age. When the right number of Gentiles will have come it, Jesus will come for His bride. If you are not ready, watching and expecting His coming, you will be left behind.

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

Hey Jack, how's it going?

I was actually serious with the last post, I do hope the Lord is passing extra blessings your way.

We might have differences in our views of the end times but underneath it all, we're still brothers in the Lord. Have a good one.


.

Wife having a rough time of it, in/out of the hospital with her COPD...not able to get on forum as much as I would have like to, however she is getting on top of this...adjusting meds./etc. thus look forward to spending more time here.

Old Amill. Jack

Although I'm the antithesis of being serious in life/chuch...take even humorous responses very serious as not a doubt our Lord 'knows us directly' waaay beyond 'knowing about' us thus paying great attention watching on how we are treating His precious Word and each other. Thank you again!

 

[Rev20]

WE are very close to the end of this age. You can poke fun at dispensations, but they are the truth of the word of God. We are in a dispensation: the age of grace, or the church age. When the right number of Gentiles will have come it, Jesus will come for His bride. If you are not ready, watching and expecting His coming, you will be left behind. LAMAD

There is no "Church Age" mentioned in the bible. There is this:

"that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him . . . which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that [age] which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." -- Eph 1:17, 20-23 NKJV​

"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." -- Acts 2:46-47​

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -- Col 1:18​

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" -- Col 1:24​

How does a separate "kingdom age" for Israel fit into that picture?

Christ gave his life for the Church, and it lasts forever, throughout all ages, in both heaven and the earth:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" -- Eph 5:25​

"And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." -- Eph 3:19-21​

There is no glory whatsoever mentioned for an earthly kingdom. That is found only in the imaginations of men; that is, the "ages" mentioned in dispensational literature have all been "manufactured" by the imaginations of mere men, in modern times.

Jesus came for his bride, which is the Church, in the first century when He divorced Israel and destroyed the Great harlot and Mother of Harlots, Jerusalem, the city of bondage to the children of Israel. The children of bondage were living under the old covenant:

"But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." -- Gal 4:23-26​

When Christ divorced the city of Jerusalem, the bridegroom naturally left:

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." -- Rev 18:23​

In analyzing that statement, recollect that the name "Jew" was given to all the children of Israel after their return from Babylon, when they were gathered under Judah:

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [Judah] shall the gathering of the people be." -- Gen 49:10​

In the days of the ministry of Christ, there were devout Jews from all nations under heaven who were visiting Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost:

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." -- Acts 2:5​

The sorceries were found among the leadership of whorish Jerusalem:

"But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the harlot." -- Isa 57:3​

Therefore, Jews from all nations were deceived by the evil rulers of Jerusalem and Israel, who were liars, being children of Satan:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." -- Isa 28:14-18​

"Ye [children of Jerusalem] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." -- John 8:44 KJV​

There is also no truth in dual covenant theology: well, maybe enough to snare you, like those busybodies who watch our every move, that we have been warned against:

"For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought." -- Isa 29:20-21​

When Satan is defeated, all that will change, and we will be free again.


.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 735:

Matthew 27 gives us a clue, when he wrote "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." God raised up some of the elders of the Old Covenant when Jesus rose. They got their resurrection body way back then.

Note that the original Greek word (egeiro: G1453) translated as "arose" in Matthew 27:52 can refer to recently-dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like how Jesus "raised (egeiro)" the recently-dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). The dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' physical resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently-dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus (John 12:1). For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the physical resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

iamlamad said in post 735:

We can guess that Adam and Abraham were among them. It is my guess that they are the 24 elders John saw around the throne.

Note that the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

iamlamad said in post 735:

We find this same earthquake at the 6th seal . . .

Note that there is no resurrection at the 6th seal. Instead, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

iamlamad said in post 735:

Of course you can ignore all this, and ignore Paul's rapture, and find yourself left behind.

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 735:

We are VERY CLOSE to Paul's rapture (which will come before the Day of the Lord) and the start of the real Day of the Lord.

Note that the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 735:

Have you understood the Beast with the 7 heads?

The 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 735:

I fully expect Iraq to fall to Muslim extremists soon.

Note that this can be prevented, if the U.S. undertakes a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to prevent the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL) from taking over Iraq, and Syria, and all the rest of the Middle East, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to keep ISIS/ISIL under control, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform, for they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it is not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm (such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders).

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It is all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and -advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church (including those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 735:

The Beast will take out three nations and three kings . . .

Are you thinking of Daniel 7? If so, in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

iamlamad said in post 735:

WE are very close to the end of this age.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

iamlamad said in post 735:

We are in a dispensation: the age of grace, or the church age.

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 735:

When the right number of Gentiles will have come it, Jesus will come for His bride.

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

iamlamad said in post 735:

If you are not ready, watching and expecting His coming, you will be left behind.

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation, and by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

iamlamad said in post 735:

If you are not ready, watching and expecting His coming, you will be left behind.

Regarding "watching and expecting His coming", during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).