Rapture Before Wrath

[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 737:

How does a separate "kingdom age" for Israel fit into that picture?

It is not a separate age, but Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Rev20 said in post 737:

There is no glory whatsoever mentioned for an earthly kingdom.

Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6. For the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There is no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, the church will reign forever on the new earth. For the church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

Rev20 said in post 737:

Jesus came for his bride, which is the Church, in the first century when He divorced Israel and destroyed the Great harlot and Mother of Harlots, Jerusalem . . .

Do you mean that Jesus' 2nd coming occurred in 70 AD? If so, note that it didn't because Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Rev20 said in post 737:

Jesus came for his bride, which is the Church, in the first century when He divorced Israel and destroyed the Great harlot and Mother of Harlots, Jerusalem . . .

Note that while the corrupt aspects of first century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of first century Jerusalem. For first century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was first century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had first century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had first century Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

 

[shturt678s]

It is not a separate age, but Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30).

"Jesus' kingdom" = anywhere where the rule of Christ is with His precious Word, eg, all three Persons rule now and forever because of the oneness of their being; however technically Christ rules now, the Father eventually sort of thing.

And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).



Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6. For the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There is no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, the church will reign forever on the new earth. For the church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).



Do you mean that Jesus' 2nd coming occurred in 70 AD? If so, note that it didn't because Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).



Note that while the corrupt aspects of first century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of first century Jerusalem. For first century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was first century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had first century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had first century Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

 

[Rev20]

"Jesus' kingdom" = anywhere where the rule of Christ is with His precious Word, eg, all three Persons rule now and forever because of the oneness of their being; however technically Christ rules now, the Father eventually sort of thing.

I see that Bible2 appears to be on another one of his copy/paste, thread-hogging rampages.

Of course, I cannot be certain except to notice that he posted four consecutive posts, and the one you quoted is a mile-long. He has been on my ignore list for quite a while.


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[Manasseh_]

I see that Bible2 appears to be on another one of his copy/paste, thread-hogging rampages.

Of course, I cannot be certain except to notice that he posted four consecutive posts, and the one you quoted is a mile-long. He has been on my ignore list for quite a while.


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LoL, why do I feel that would be a good name for a band....... Thread Hogging Rampages .............."AND NOW , direct from a successful tour in Europe ,give it up for em' folks........THR !!!

 

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 742:

"Jesus' kingdom" = anywhere where the rule of Christ is with His precious Word . . .

That's right, in that presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

shturt678s said in post 742:

Christ rules now . . .

That's right, but Jesus isn't yet exercising his omnipotence (of Matthew 28:18) to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

shturt678s said in post 742:

. . . all three Persons rule now and forever because of the oneness of their being; however technically Christ rules now, the Father eventually sort of thing.

That's right, and note that 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

 

[BABerean2]

In John chapter 5 Christ indicates a simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


How do we justify multiple resurrections when Christ said there would be one?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The verse above from Daniel connects the Old Testament resurrection to the New Testament resurrection.



Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.


The verse above connects the resurrection of members of the Church to the others through the "Book of Life".


Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


How many resurrections will there be, based on the words of Christ in John chapter 5?

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[shturt678s]

I see that Bible2 appears to be on another one of his copy/paste, thread-hogging rampages.

Of course, I cannot be certain except to notice that he posted four consecutive posts, and the one you quoted is a mile-long. He has been on my ignore list for quite a while.


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Decades ago about 10% of church membership really cared about the Cross daily way beyond showing up on church on sunday throwing around "God bless you" during the week keeping the Bible visible in their car ....all very superficial...my opinion.

In today's time of hypergrace less than 1% heartfully care thus although agreeing to disagree, I pay attention to this precious less than 1% where Bible2 is a part of along with you my brother.

Our works of faith is to present the truth minimizing mixing with error where others cannot say we didn't go the mile with them resulting from a judgment from our Lord in heaven as to whether another had an agape for that truth; or whether we had a chance to agape that truth.

Long posits are easy to address as simply discredit one sound byte discredits the rests pretty much.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[shturt678s]

In John chapter 5 Christ indicates a simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


How do we justify multiple resurrections when Christ said there would be one?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The verse above from Daniel connects the Old Testament resurrection to the New Testament resurrection.



Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.


The verse above connects the resurrection of members of the Church to the others through the "Book of Life".


Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


How many resurrections will there be, based on the words of Christ in John chapter 5?

.
.

One continuous resurrection that began at Matt.27:53 that culminates in John chapter 5.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Rev20]

Decades ago about 10% of church membership really cared about the Cross daily way beyond showing up on church on sunday throwing around "God bless you" during the week keeping the Bible visible in their car ....all very superficial...my opinion.

In today's time of hypergrace less than 1% heartfully care thus although agreeing to disagree, I pay attention to this precious less than 1% where Bible2 is a part of along with you my brother.

Our works of faith is to present the truth minimizing mixing with error where others cannot say we didn't go the mile with them resulting from a judgment from our Lord in heaven as to whether another had an agape for that truth; or whether we had a chance to agape that truth.

Long posits are easy to address as simply discredit one sound byte discredits the rests pretty much.

Old Jack's opinion

Good point, Old Jack. But there is a time for pointificating, for example when there is no one else around. LOL!


.

 

[shturt678s]

Good point, Old Jack. But there is a time for pointificating, for example when there is no one else around. LOL!


.

Old age and pontification kind of go together unfortunately....the irony is there is really not many of us around already - heartfully caring about the Cross from heaven's view hourly....Satan must be personally loosed (Rev.20:7)?

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Rev20]

Satan must be personally loosed (Rev.20:7)?

I believe he is.


.

 

[shturt678s]

I believe he is.


.

Where the rubber meets the road, ie, we're at the ending part of God's "wrath" being poured out where I sure hope Satan isn't personally loosed yet for my loved one's and other's sake...even for my sake as to what lie mixed with truth am I also believing even in the essentials?

Old Jack's opinion...so called 'rapture' (Jn.5:28, 29) after Satan personally loosed.

 

[Rev20]

Where the rubber meets the road, ie, we're at the ending part of God's "wrath" being poured out where I sure hope Satan isn't personally loosed yet for my loved one's and other's sake...even for my sake as to what lie mixed with truth am I also believing even in the essentials?

Old Jack's opinion...so called 'rapture' (Jn.5:28, 29) after Satan personally loosed.

Satan is the great deceiver, Jack. Think back when "right began to become wrong", and "wrong began to become right". It began when Christianity lost control of the western governments, and it began in my lifetime.


.

 

[shturt678s]

Satan is the great deceiver, Jack. Think back when "right began to become wrong", and "wrong began to become right". It began when Christianity lost control of the western governments, and it began in my lifetime.


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All to do with the spiritual sphere as only the effects are noted in the temporal, ie, more to do with what it thinks that it really is, what it only pretends to be sort of thing in the spiritual.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Bible2]

BABerean2 said in post 746:

In John chapter 5 Christ indicates a simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Regarding John 5:28-29, note that it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), could be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

BABerean2 said in post 746:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:1 will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

 

[BABerean2]

Regarding John 5:28-29, note that it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), could be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).



Daniel 12:1 will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

Brother Bible2,

Do both of us have an uncertainty problem concerning time?

Mine is with the word "hour" and yours with the word "thousand".


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


hour = G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.



Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


(KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


thousand = G5507

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.



Your view has the "Book of Life" being used for more than one resurrection. However, mine is only one.


I am also a little confused about your use of the word Israel. At some points you acknowledge our being a part of it, but at others you separate out the descendants of Jacob. How do you clearly tell which is which in the Book of Revelation?

You are clearly opposed to the pretrib doctrine, but seem to have assimilated some of the Dispensational view into your eschatology. This mainly concerns the descendants of Jacob, in the events of Revelation.


It looks like we will continue to agree to disagree on these points.

Respectfully,

 

[iamlamad]

In John chapter 5 Christ indicates a simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


How do we justify multiple resurrections when Christ said there would be one?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The verse above from Daniel connects the Old Testament resurrection to the New Testament resurrection.



Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.


The verse above connects the resurrection of members of the Church to the others through the "Book of Life".


Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


How many resurrections will there be, based on the words of Christ in John chapter 5?

.
.

Revelation 20 tells us VERY CLEARLY and it detail that there will be TWO resurrections, one for the just and another for the sinner, over a thousand years apart.

Now, which of the two will you believe? Will you take Jesus' word over John's word, KNOWING that John was inspired by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Or, perhaps you think the Holy Spirit was confused in one of these two passages?

Yet another possibility: you tore Revelation from your bible.

Please tell us.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Where the rubber meets the road, ie, we're at the ending part of God's "wrath" being poured out where I sure hope Satan isn't personally loosed yet for my loved one's and other's sake...even for my sake as to what lie mixed with truth am I also believing even in the essentials?

Old Jack's opinion...so called 'rapture' (Jn.5:28, 29) after Satan personally loosed.

Sad to say, Jack, but your posts are as far from the truth of scripture as any posted here. You know as well as I that you cannot find any place in history that fits the 7 trumpet judgments, much less the 7 vials. They (being God's wrath poured out) are FUTURE EVENTS.

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

Sad to say, Jack, but your posts are as far from the truth of scripture as any posted here. You know as well as I that you cannot find any place in history that fits the 7 trumpet judgments, much less the 7 vials. They (being God's wrath poured out) are FUTURE EVENTS.

LAMAD

If IIThess.2:11-12 is very clearly coming to pass this very moment.

If Rev.8:7-9:21 simply very clearly expounds IIThess.2:11-12.

Simply very clearly the trumpet judgments of God's wrath ("seductive religous delusions") is coming to pass this very moment. BTW Church economics and hypergrace are a big part of it for those that do not have an agape for the truthful direction when confronted with it.

Old Jack's opinion

BTW we're very clearly at the end of the symbolic "1,000" of Rev.20 with only one resurrection.

Hey, appreciate you my brother, at least you don't have 3 or 4 resurrections which I've recently heard of?

 

[Rev20]

Revelation 20 tells us VERY CLEARLY and it detail that there will be TWO resurrections, one for the just and another for the sinner, over a thousand years apart.

Now, which of the two will you believe? Will you take Jesus' word over John's word, KNOWING that John was inspired by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Or, perhaps you think the Holy Spirit was confused in one of these two passages?

Yet another possibility: you tore Revelation from your bible.

Please tell us.

LAMAD

You made that up about the second resurrection (Rev 20:11-15) being only for the sinner. It doesn't state that anywhere. In fact, John specifically stated, in the vision of the first resurrection, that some people would have to wait a "thousand years" to live again (Rev 20:5). The Book of Life is also present.

Did you tear the Revelation out of your bible when you received your copy of the dispensational talking points? LOL!


.