Rapture Before Wrath

[Rev20]

LOL well guess what!!! The word Zion is mentioned in the bible 176 times, Sion once and almost all reference of Zion is on earth.

I cannot believe you did not understand that sequence of verses, Peter. Did you even read them?

Mount Sion is a heavenly place in the new covenant, Peter. Even in the parables found within the old covenant prophecies it was a great, spiritual mountain, like the great, spiritual mountain John saw in his vision in Rev 21. Read this carefully:

"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." -- Mic 4:1-2 KJV​

How do you establish a "mountain" in the top of the mountains, Peter? And do you really expect a Mecca-like pilgrimage to a mountain in the top of the mountains? We already have access to the Lord via the scripture, the church, and the fellowship of our friends.

And what about Jerusalem? You certainly do not think the Lord will establish his home in an earthly city of bondage, do you? The city that had him tortured and murdered?

Read this carefully:

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." -- Gal 4:22-26 KJV​

There are two Jerusalems, Peter; and the earthly Jerusalem is the city which Jesus came to destroy to release the children from the bondage of its claws (Is 61:1-2.)

And guess what else? The children of the covenant of bondage will not inherit the promises:

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." -- Gal 4:29-30 KJV​

The promises of the new covenant are all spiritual, Peter. Your lack of understanding of the scriptures is a classic example of this dilemma that plagued the children of Israel:

"And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." -- 2Cor 3:13-14 KJV​

Here, let's have a look at Isaiah 28 beyond verse 16.

Isaiah 28:16-21 (ERV)

If Zion in Isaiah 28:16 is in heaven, where in heaven can you find these things?

1) Workers
2) Hailstorm and floods
3) Someone will come and punish you
4) the dirt he walks on
5) punishment
6) morning
7) the night
8) A man tried to sleep on a bed that was too short for him
9) Gibeon Valley
10) a stranger’s job

Where in heaven can you find any of those, none! Isaiah 26:18 is referring to Zion on earth.

Look at the passages before and after verse 6. It reveals what is being built up. Zion is not a place in heaven and the living stones being built up are each of us who believes.

You can find anything in the spiritual realms of Heaven, Peter. Satan actually lived there for a time. But you have taken those verses in Isaiah completely out of context:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." -- Isa 28:14-18 KJV​

That was a promise to Jerusalem that their city would be trodden under foot; and that was fulfilled in the AD 60's, within the generation of Jesus Christ.

The corner stone in Zion is Jesus Christ. Both Peter and Christ said that Christ was the fulfillment of that prophecy when he became the Messiah. Do you recall any time that Christ visited mount Zion during his ministry? You do not deny that the "Corner Stone" was laid in the Holy Temple, which we are a part of; so why are you insisting Sion is not spiritual.
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Rev20, only problem, the heavenly Jerusalem has not come down upon us yet and won't until the end of the millennium.

It never says the new Jerusalem comes down to the earth, Peter. What John saw was in the spiritual realm, in a vision:

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," -- Rev 21:10 KJV​

Why do you insist on adding words to the scripture?

This is our primary difference, Peter. You interpret the old testament "literally" (or you claim to,) and I don't. I see the prophecies as parables; you see them as actual events and things. I use the words in the new covenant to interpret the old; you use the old covenant to interpret the new.

Until one of us changes our interpretive methods, we will never agree. I can promise you that it will not be me who changes.

 

[Rev20]

No, Rev20, Christ said that John came "in the spirit of" Elijah "and IF YE WILL receive it" the Kingdom..."

In short, that was just one more of Israel's testings...

No, Danoh. This is what Christ said:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." -- Matt 17:10-13


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[Rev20]

Its fascinating; the difference in views between people on here despite the same pasaages cited . Some years back, I read these two books back to back. One asserting tracing its Seventh Day Adventist position, another its Baptist. Felt like their respective authors just copied each other as to the passages of Scripture; each slanted to his own view.

That's why we should more explore the differing views than to get so serious about them, let alone, allow ourselves to so easily be offended by another's supposed "heresy."

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin," Rom. 14.

In other words, within the context of that chapter, if its not your full persuasion, okay; so don't hold to it.

As for you, Rev20, well, you're just too much fun - you noted "I try not to add words to the scripture. I see it doesn't seem to matter to you. I guess we will have to disagree on that one."

Yeah, okay sure..

Are you ever going to contribute anything to the debate, Danoh; or is your mission in life to snipe and cast aspersions?


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[Danoh]

No, Danoh. This is what Christ said:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." -- Matt 17:10-13


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Did Elijah restore all things? Was he even enabled to? Rationalize it away, but the teaching they had concerning what those things were reveals he did not; for they did to him what they did; cut him off before His time.

 

[Bible2]

TPeterY said in post 575:

Moses and Elijah will appear during the tribulation as the 2 witnesses.

That could be right: In the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

TPeterY said in post 575:

This is what He meant when He said Matthew 16:28.

Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 were fulfilled at the subsequent transfiguration (Matthew 16:28 to 17:9, Luke 9:27-36, Mark 9:1-9; 2 Peter 1:16-18).

That is, just as the "power", "coming", and "majesty" in 2 Peter 1:16 refer to the transfiguration in 2 Peter 1:17-18, so the "power", "coming", and "kingdom" in Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, and Luke 9:27 refer to the subsequent transfiguration in Mark 9:2-9, Matthew 17:1-9, and Luke 9:28-36.

The transfiguration was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Mark 9:1-9, Luke 9:27-36) in the same sense that Jesus' previous and subsequent casting out of devils was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Matthew 12:28, Luke 11:20). That is, such events showed that God's power had come to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ.

TPeterY said in post 575:

This is not about Hebrews 9:27 where everyone is appointed once to die thinking it'll be Enoch and Elijah.

That's right.

For Hebrews 9:27 isn't meant to be taken as an absolute rule, but as a general rule with some exceptions, like how, for example, Enoch in Hebrews 11:5 is an exception to Hebrews 11:13a. For it is possible for dead people to be resuscitated back to mortal life (e.g. after dying on an operating table) only to die a 2nd time sometime later. An example of a Biblical exception to Hebrews 9:27 is when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44). For Lazarus must have died a 2nd time, perhaps decades later, because Jesus himself was subsequently the first person to be raised from the dead to stay alive forever (1 Corinthians 15:20-23,52-54, Colossians 1:18b). And just as Lazarus died a 2nd time, so Moses could die a 2nd time, during the future tribulation as one of the 2 witnesses, who will be killed (Revelation 11:7).

Also, Enoch was translated so that he wouldn't see death (Hebrews 11:5), not so that he would see death as one of the 2 witnesses. Hebrews 9:27 doesn't mean that everyone has to die at least once, for some believers will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

 

[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 583:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." -- Matt 17:10-13

Note that Matthew 17:10-13 can be understood as referring to 2 different comings of Elijah, the first being John the Baptist's coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17, Matthew 17:12-13), and the 2nd being a still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself, when he will restore all things (Matthew 17:11), in the sense of restoring all true doctrine, i.e. all true interpretation of the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), to the church. This still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, when Elijah could come back physically from heaven as one of the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12).

 

[TPeterY]

No, Danoh. This is what Christ said:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." -- Matt 17:10-13


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Rev20,

It's what Danoh said, John was preaching through the spirit of Elijah.

No, Rev20, Christ said that John came "in the spirit of" Elijah "and IF YE WILL receive it" the Kingdom..."

In short, that was just one more of Israel's testings...

Look at these other translations. The disciples later realized Elijah did came through John the Baptist.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2017%3A10-13&version=CEV;NIV;NCV;ESV



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[TPeterY]

That could be right: In the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).



Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 were fulfilled at the subsequent transfiguration (Matthew 16:28 to 17:9, Luke 9:27-36, Mark 9:1-9; 2 Peter 1:16-18).

That is, just as the "power", "coming", and "majesty" in 2 Peter 1:16 refer to the transfiguration in 2 Peter 1:17-18, so the "power", "coming", and "kingdom" in Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, and Luke 9:27 refer to the subsequent transfiguration in Mark 9:2-9, Matthew 17:1-9, and Luke 9:28-36.

The transfiguration was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Mark 9:1-9, Luke 9:27-36) in the same sense that Jesus' previous and subsequent casting out of devils was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Matthew 12:28, Luke 11:20). That is, such events showed that God's power had come to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ.



That's right.

For Hebrews 9:27 isn't meant to be taken as an absolute rule, but as a general rule with some exceptions, like how, for example, Enoch in Hebrews 11:5 is an exception to Hebrews 11:13a. For it is possible for dead people to be resuscitated back to mortal life (e.g. after dying on an operating table) only to die a 2nd time sometime later. An example of a Biblical exception to Hebrews 9:27 is when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44). For Lazarus must have died a 2nd time, perhaps decades later, because Jesus himself was subsequently the first person to be raised from the dead to stay alive forever (1 Corinthians 15:20-23,52-54, Colossians 1:18b). And just as Lazarus died a 2nd time, so Moses could die a 2nd time, during the future tribulation as one of the 2 witnesses, who will be killed (Revelation 11:7).

Also, Enoch was translated so that he wouldn't see death (Hebrews 11:5), not so that he would see death as one of the 2 witnesses. Hebrews 9:27 doesn't mean that everyone has to die at least once, for some believers will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

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[TPeterY]

I believe your understanding has been weakened by all the man-inserted chapter breaks and opinions. It is a biblical fact that Christ reigns on earth (as well as in heaven) at this time, and for ever:

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, if you say so.

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There is not a single verse in the New Testament that states the Lord will ever sit on an earthly throne; nor is there a single verse that states the Lord will ever physically walk on the earth again. I don't know why you keep insisting that he will?

Why do you always ask for evidence only in the New Testament when there's tons of scriptures throughout the Old Testament of Christ reign's on earth?

There's a lot one can learn about prophecy in the OT. The last 16 books of the OT are all prophecies about the Second Coming.

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The word "reign" is an appropriate translation of the Greek in that verse. You are the first to question it, that I am aware of.

Young's Literal Translation is considered a very valuable translation by a vast number of scholars in that the goal of Robert Young was to present a literal and accurate "tense" to the verses. The fact that you attempt to degrade it makes me question your scholarship.

Here you go, two Greek study tools. Both uses the word "Kingdom" in Matthew 16:28, nothing involving the word "reign" in either Greek version.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat16.pdf

Greek and Hebrew Reader's Edition | BibleWebApp.com

You use the King James Version and it also uses the word "Kingdom." Why would you switch now?

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Example:

Matthew 12:28 (NKJV)
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

You have to do better than that. The kingdom of God existed in the days of John the Baptist, or earlier:

That's what I just told you with Matthew 12:28, the Kingdom of God came upon them.

Now you're just disagreeing with everything I say before reading what I wrote.

And you're making this really fun Rev20....la la la.

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The kingdom was controlled by the Jews (actually, Satan.) When Jesus cast out demons, he was pulling those people away from Satan's (the Jews') leadership, to His own leadership. But when Jesus came in his kingdom with his angels, in the glory of his father, he sat down on the throne of that kingdom. That is when he took complete control of the kingdom. You may recall this verse:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." -- Matt 21:43​

That happened when Jerusalem and the old guard were destroyed in AD70.

Anything else happened?

What about all that preaching about the book of Revelation and all other prophecies of the end times already fulfilled in AD70?

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I guess John was not paying attention, because he implied he had no idea what Christ would look like in the future:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -- 1Joh 3:2​

You are making all this up. Next subject . . .

LOL Rev60, you're killin me....in a funny kinda way.

Read what it says. 1 John 3:2 is referring to Christ's inside, His heart, His love, His being, His goodness, etc, not His outside that'll radiant like the sun when He comes in power and great glory.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%203%3A2&version=ERV;CEV;NCV

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Chicks? No, he gathered his Elect, which were the remnant of Israel. They serve him forever in his holy city on heavenly mount Sion. Some of their names are Paul, Peter, John, James, Stephen . . . the Chosen Generation of Israel--the Royal Priesthood.

Yeah Chicks.....and Chickens too depending on the translation you use.

Matthew 23:37 (NKJV)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Now tell me, do you see "Elect" in any of those translations below? I don't think you will.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and - Online Bible Study Tools

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LOL! Peter, you are joking, right? I, personally, have no clue when Christ will come to judge the quick and the dead; I only know it will occur after Satan is destroyed.

It's easy to find out if you follow Spiritual Wisdom instead of Carnal Knowledge. Knowledge is foolish.

I already gave you the answer in the previous threads but you are either not reading what I wrote or not understanding it. And I did gave you the year, you just have to add them up. I also backed up my claim with scriptures as well as two external links.

Go back and look.

1 Timothy 6:20 (ERV)
Timothy, God has trusted you with many things. Keep these things safe. Stay away from people who talk about useless things that are not from God and who argue against you with a “knowledge” that is not knowledge at all.

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Peter, Jesus did not become the Messiah until the beginning of the 70th week. He ministered on earth for a half-week until he was "cut-off" (killed). So 69 1/2 weeks were completed at the time of his crucifixion. His disciples fulfilled the last half-week of the required covenant confirmation.

Wrong and a misunderstanding of Daniel 9 and the 70 week prophecy. No such thing as 69.5 plus 1/2 week.

70AD ended where it says "War will continue until the end" in verse 26.

Verse 27 begins in the near future.

Daniel 9:26-27 (ERV)
26) After the 62 weeks, the chosen one will be killed. He will be gone. Then the people of the future leader will destroy the city and the holy place. That end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end. God has ordered that place to be completely destroyed.
27) “Then the future ruler will make an agreement with many people. That agreement will continue for one week. The offerings and sacrifices will stop for a half of a week. And a destroyer will come. He will do terrible, destructive things, but God has ordered that destroyer to be completely destroyed.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan+9%3A26-27&version=ERV


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That was fulfilled before Paul wrote the book of Colossians. But first, let me provide some background. The term "all the world" was considered the Roman empire:

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." -- Luke 2:1​

LOL!!!! Okaaaaaaaaay, if you say so! This answer is better then the first one.

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Jesus said that John the Baptist fulfilled the Malachi prophecy of the coming of Elijah. Don't you believe Jesus?

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Don't be silly, of course I do. But the more important question is, "do we understand what Jesus told us in the bible?" I know I do and it ain't AD70.

LOL!!!!

Until one of us changes our interpretive methods, we will never agree. I can promise you that it will not be me who changes.

I'm pretty sure neither one of us will change our minds, but I can promise you with absolutely certainty, "it will not be me who will change you."



Enjoy your day Rev20


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[iamlamad]

It is quite amazing; some here say that all (or nearly all) has been fulfilled; as in MOST of Revelation is already history.

I have heard this silly argument for years.....yet NO ONE that believes such nonsense has ever pointed to a certain event in history that matches any of the trumpet judgments or vial judgments. I have read several times where someone has done this for Daniel chapter 11, the part of that chapter that is history. If most of Revelation is history, then there must be history that fits.

For example, when has some heavenly army killed 1/3 of earth's population? When has anyone seen stinging little flying beasties with lion's teeth, that sting like a scorpion sting, so bad people wish to die? OF course, anyone with common sense KNOWS these events are future, not past.

Consider all the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah the FIRST time; such as being sold for 30 pieces of silver, and then that silver buying a potters field? NO ONE could miss this after the fact. These prophecies are so accurate, no one could miss them.

Do these people then imagine that God decided when He wrote Revelation just to make it impossible to tell when it was fulfilled? No, this book is a REVEALING, not a hiding. The TRUTH is so clear: These events are FUTURE.

Perhaps some on this thread should study up on this English word, "future," and discover what it really means.

Next, a little excercise: take an apple and cut it in half. NOTICE you have two halves. Eat one half and save the rest for the next day. Now take what is left and cut it in half. What is left in your hands? You have two quarters, not two halves. Remember, the stopping of the sacrifices (the abomination event) will divided the week into two halves). Understand, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to divide a week (7 years) by some event, and end up with 42 months, 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years for one half of the week, if you do not begin with ONE WHOLE WEEK. Revelation shows us the ENTIRE WEEK, with the dividing point - the exact midpoint - in chapter 11. For those that think Revelation begins with only a half week, what then is written in Revelation BEFORE chapter 11? Th TRUTH is, the FIRST half of the week takes place from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet.

TRUTH: we still have the entire 70th week of Daniel in our future. NOT a far distant future. The 70th week may begin in a few months not a few years.

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

It is quite amazing; some here say that all (or nearly all) has been fulfilled; as in MOST of Revelation is already history.

I have heard this silly argument for years.....yet NO ONE that believes such nonsense has ever pointed to a certain event in history that matches any of the trumpet judgments or vial judgments. I have read several times where someone has done this for Daniel chapter 11, the part of that chapter that is history. If most of Revelation is history, then there must be history that fits.

For example, when has some heavenly army killed 1/3 of earth's population? When has anyone seen stinging little flying beasties with lion's teeth, that sting like a scorpion sting, so bad people wish to die? OF course, anyone with common sense KNOWS these events are future, not past.

Consider all the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah the FIRST time; such as being sold for 30 pieces of silver, and then that silver buying a potters field? NO ONE could miss this after the fact. These prophecies are so accurate, no one could miss them.

Do these people then imagine that God decided when He wrote Revelation just to make it impossible to tell when it was fulfilled? No, this book is a REVEALING, not a hiding. The TRUTH is so clear: These events are FUTURE.

Perhaps some on this thread should study up on this English word, "future," and discover what it really means.

Next, a little excercise: take an apple and cut it in half. NOTICE you have two halves. Eat one half and save the rest for the next day. Now take what is left and cut it in half. What is left in your hands? You have two quarters, not two halves. Remember, the stopping of the sacrifices (the abomination event) will divided the week into two halves). Understand, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to divide a week (7 years) by some event, and end up with 42 months, 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years for one half of the week, if you do not begin with ONE WHOLE WEEK. Revelation shows us the ENTIRE WEEK, with the dividing point - the exact midpoint - in chapter 11. For those that think Revelation begins with only a half week, what then is written in Revelation BEFORE chapter 11? Th TRUTH is, the FIRST half of the week takes place from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet.

TRUTH: we still have the entire 70th week of Daniel in our future. NOT a far distant future. The 70th week may begin in a few months not a few years.

TRUTHFUL DIRECTION: we are in the latter part of the entire 70th heptad of Daniel in our "nowist" opinion, ie, 70 heptads = from the time of Daniel to the end of time. Little more symbolic brother LAMAD.

LAMAD

OLD JACK'S OPINION

 

[Rev20]

Did Elijah restore all things? Was he even enabled to? Rationalize it away, but the teaching they had concerning what those things were reveals he did not; for they did to him what they did; cut him off before His time.

I cannot believe you are saying this, Danoh? You are admitting you don't believe the words of Christ? Read them again:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." -- Matt 17:10-13​

Perhaps you were misled about the words of the old covenant prophecy:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." -- Mal 4:5-6 KJV​

As Jesus said above, they did not listen to "Elijah" (John the Baptist), and the "earth" was cursed. If you had lived in Judaea in the latter part of the generation of Christ, at the time of the "great and dreadful day of the Lord," you have known that the earth was cursed at that time.

Danoh, Christians, by definition, believe every word of Christ. We do not explain away the words of Christ because his words do not fit our interpretation of the Old Testament. That is what the first century Jews did, and it did not go well for them.


.

 

[Rev20]

Rev20,

It's what Danoh said, John was preaching through the spirit of Elijah.

Look at these other translations. The disciples later realized Elijah did came through John the Baptist.
.

That is not what Danoh was implying, Peter. Read his post #585. He was implying that John was not the fulfillment of the prophecy. That is the Error of Scofield (one of the many):

"(1) Christ confirms the specific and still unfulfilled prophecy of Mal 4:5,6: "Elias shall truly first come and restore all things." Here, as in Malachi, the prediction fulfilled in John the Baptist, and that yet to be fulfilled in Elijah, are kept distinct." [Cyrus I Scofield, "The Scofield Reference Bible." Oxford University Press, 1909, Matt.17:10, p.1023]​

Scofield clearly denies the words of Jesus Christ, which is, frankly, absolute insanity. I don't recommend anyone believe a word Scofield wrote.


.

 

[Rev20]

Why do you always ask for evidence only in the New Testament when there's tons of scriptures throughout the Old Testament of Christ reign's on earth?

There's a lot one can learn about prophecy in the OT. The last 16 books of the OT are all prophecies about the Second Coming.

Everyone misinterprets the old testament, Peter: even the apostles, until Christ set them straight. Everything you know about fulfillment of the old testament prophecies, you know only because they were revealed in the new testament (new covenant,) for example:

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." -- Zec 13:7 KJV​

There is no way you could have possibly known what that meant, unless Christ had explained it to us. A while ago, I made a post on this same subject. I will repeat most of it here.

We were given many warnings to come to Christ (the new covenant) first, beginning with Moses:

"I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him." -- Deut 18:18-19 LXX​

Peter confirmed the words of Moses:

"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." -- Acts 3:20-23 KJV​

Before there was a new covenant: while Christ was still walking on the earth ministering to the people, and there were no written oracles of God but the old testament, Jesus made this statement:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -- John 5:39-40 KJV​

Jesus could only have been talking about the Old Testament. He said, in many ways, that we had best listen to him, and not Moses, if we expected salvation. For example:

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." -- Luke 16:16 KJV​

So, maybe we should be listening to the preacher; and the preacher, first and foremost, is Jesus Christ.

As for those still clinging to Moses, Jesus ridiculed:

"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" -- John 5:45-47 KJV​

Moses, the prophets, and all the disciples said the exact same thing: that we should listen to Jesus Christ. Paul even gave a specific warning against reliance on, and even reading, the old testament:

"And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." -- 2Cor 3:13-14 KJV​

Of course, Paul was referring to those who were unfamiliar with the new covenant. But I see that same blindness even today in those who place the writings of the old covenant superior to the new.

The old testament was important in the generation of Christ because they did not have the new covenant, and had to rely on the ministry of the apostles and the early church; for example, of the teachings of Paul:

"And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening." -- Acts 28:23 KJV​

Notice, all that passage says is Paul was using the old testament to point them to Christ. But now we have all the books of the new covenant, so every man can be taught of God, as is written:

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." -- John 6:45 KJV​

Here you go, two Greek study tools. Both uses the word "Kingdom" in Matthew 16:28, nothing involving the word "reign" in either Greek version.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat16.pdf

[url=http://biblewebapp.com/reader/]Greek and Hebrew Reader's Edition | BibleWebApp.com

You use the King James Version and it also uses the word "Kingdom." Why would you switch now?

Are you still harping on that? I told you I was fine with the word "kingdom". I simply do not believe the contrived interpretation you have adopted that it was the transfiguration.
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That's what I just told you with Matthew 12:28, the Kingdom of God came upon them.

Now you're just disagreeing with everything I say before reading what I wrote.

And you're making this really fun Rev20....la la la.

Why did you take my words out of context, Peter? The entire point of my statement was that Christ came in his kingdom in AD70, not at the transfiguration as you claim.
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What about all that preaching about the book of Revelation and all other prophecies of the end times already fulfilled in AD70?

I am a partial preterist, Peter, so I believe most of the Revelation is fulfilled, until about the mid-part of chapter 20. The church creeds, going back about 16 centuries, or so, teaches that the millennium began on or about the time of the resurrection; which is what I believe. I certainly do not believe the doctrine you cling to: the doctrine of dispensationalism that was manufactured in the past century of so.
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LOL Rev60, you're killin me....in a funny kinda way.

Read what it says. 1 John 3:2 is referring to Christ's inside, His heart, His love, His being, His goodness, etc, not His outside that'll radiant like the sun when He comes in power and great glory.

I see you have a hard time reading the words of the new covenant (and following this conversation.) But since you are not well-versed in the scriptures, let me explain John's words in another way. Do you recall these words by Jesus Christ?

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." -- Matt 24:4-5 KJV​

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." -- Matt 24:24-26 KJV​

Why would Christ make such statements to his disciples? Would they not recognize him, and the others as frauds?

According to 1 John 3:2, no, they would not recognize him.

Peter, I don't believe you understand me. I do not make idle statements. I can back up everything I say with scripture. You cannot.
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Yeah Chicks.....and Chickens too depending on the translation you use.

Matthew 23:37 (NKJV)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Now tell me, do you see "Elect" in any of those translations below? I don't think you will.

There you go again. You are not following even your own conversation. You also included this passage:

"Matthew 24:31 (N)​

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."​

And I disputed your notion that Matt 23:37 was referring to gathering the elect. Do you not remember what you posted?
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It's easy to find out if you follow Spiritual Wisdom instead of Carnal Knowledge. Knowledge is foolish.

I already gave you the answer in the previous threads but you are either not reading what I wrote or not understanding it. And I did gave you the year, you just have to add them up. I also backed up my claim with scriptures as well as two external links.
Go back and look.

1 Timothy 6:20 (ERV)
Timothy, God has trusted you with many things. Keep these things safe. Stay away from people who talk about useless things that are not from God and who argue against you with a “knowledge” that is not knowledge at all.

That is dangerous territory you are treading on, Peter. But, as we have become well aware of since the rise of the dispensationalism, false prophets and teachers abound.
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Wrong and a misunderstanding of Daniel 9 and the 70 week prophecy. No such thing as 69.5 plus 1/2 week.

70AD ended where it says "War will continue until the end" in verse 26.

Verse 27 begins in the near future.

I have heard all this before, Peter. The so-called "Gap Theory" was derived by spiritualizing the scriptures; and it has become one of the cornerstones of dispensationalism, without which dispensationalism collapses into a pile of dust.
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LOL!!!! Okaaaaaaaaay, if you say so! This answer is better then the first one.
Don't be silly, of course I do. But the more important question is, "do we understand what Jesus told us in the bible?" I know I do and it ain't AD70.

I do my best to understand the words of Christ, and more so, to be a good neighbour. That is all he asks of us.


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[Danoh]

The internal evidence of Scripture is that the writers of Matthew thru Revelation gradually came to where they possessed a copy of said writings. Further, that but for Romans thru Philemon, the rest of those books were based on the Law and the Prophets.

Many, however, buy into the error that is that title page between Malachi and Matthew which was NOT a part of Scripture, rather, a misreading of Scripture - the title page, "The New Testament."

For according to the internal evidence of Scripture, the actual sense of "the law and the prophets were until John" is that that kingdom that they had "prophesied" was now "at hand."

It had ALSO been PROPHESIED that OUT OF said kingdom would "go forth the law," Is. 2.

It is why we read of Christ instructing the leper he heals in Matthew 8, to go and shew himself unto the priest and give the animal sacrifice that Moses commanded in Leviticus 14.

It is why He commanded what He did in Matthew 23 concerning Moses, and what He is referring to in Matt. 28's "teaching them whatso ever things I have commanded you" and why Peter was later thrown off in Acts 10, and why, etc.

And under said Law and the Prophets, had Israel repented from having NOT believed the Law and the Prophets, they would STILL have had to undergo the hour of temptation - the curse it was prophesied they would have to undergo the testing of, as passages like Daniel 9, Malachi 3 and Matt. 3 assert.

But some literalize the symbolic as badly as they symbolize the literal.

 

[shturt678s]

The internal evidence of Scripture is that the writers of Matthew thru Revelation gradually came to where they possessed a copy of said writings. Further, that but for Romans thru Philemon, the rest of those books were based on the Law and the Prophets.

Many, however, buy into the error that is that title page between Malachi and Matthew which was NOT a part of Scripture, rather, a misreading of Scripture - the title page, "The New Testament."

For according to the internal evidence of Scripture, the actual sense of "the law and the prophets were until John" is that that kingdom that they had "prophesied" was now "at hand."

It had ALSO been PROPHESIED that OUT OF said kingdom would "go forth the law," Is. 2.

It is why we read of Christ instructing the leper he heals in Matthew 8, to go and shew himself unto the priest and give the animal sacrifice that Moses commanded in Leviticus 14.

It is why He commanded what He did in Matthew 23 concerning Moses, and what He is referring to in Matt. 28's "teaching them whatso ever things I have commanded you" and why Peter was later thrown off in Acts 10, and why, etc.

And under said Law and the Prophets, had Israel repented from having NOT believed the Law and the Prophets, they would STILL have had to undergo the hour of temptation - the curse it was prophesied they would have to undergo the testing of, as passages like Daniel 9, Malachi 3 and Matt. 3 assert.

But some literalize the symbolic as badly as they symbolize the literal.

Not the "law and the prophets," but pure grace and mercy via faith. Law revealed what transgression and sin was.

Old Jack, only off the top

One cannot help but agape the N.T.

 

[ron4shua]

TRUTH: we still have the entire 70th week of Daniel in our future. NOT a far distant future. The 70th week may begin in a few months not a few years.

If I owned a clock that was used for the above statement I could live to be over two thousand years of age . Maybe Three or Four thousand years .

One things for sure when the Andromeda galaxy collides with our Milky Way &
our sun stops it's normal function in FIVE BILLION YEARS .

Life on this planet will change , again ! HalleluYAH .

 

[Rev20]

If I owned a clock that was used for the above statement I could live to be over two thousand years of age . Maybe Three or Four thousand years .

One things for sure when the Andromeda galaxy collides with our Milky Way &
our sun stops it's normal function in FIVE BILLION YEARS .

Life on this planet will change , again ! HalleluYAH .

LOL! Carl Sagan was recollecting a time on a call-in talk show, when a frantic lady called in and asked something like this:

"When did you say the earth would be engulfed by the sun?"

"About ten billion years," Sagan replied.

"Thank God," the lady responded, "I thought you said ten million."


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[ron4shua]

Greetings Brother Rev20 , thanks for the short story , I was gulping down some nice cold water just retrieved from the refrigerator when I started to read your post . 15 min. cleanup and get more water & I still can't stop laughing . Thanks I needed that , not the water coming through my nose so much , the laugh . I've got a blond lady story I'll send you tomorrow .
Your wet Brother , the servant ron .

 

[iamlamad]

TRUTHFUL DIRECTION: we are in the latter part of the entire 70th heptad of Daniel in our "nowist" opinion, ie, 70 heptads = from the time of Daniel to the end of time. Little more symbolic brother LAMAD.



OLD JACK'S OPINION

Just as I said, people SAY this, but NEVER point to events in history that fit. Therefore, such theories are only nonsense.

LAMAD