Rapture Before Wrath

Danoh · Aug 8, 2014

Riberra, your notions per your post #52 above, have been.weighed as to their balance and been found wanting.

The evil Paul asserts we wrestle against concerns this age, and has to do with the very policy of evil you are inadvertantly, supporting by your confusion of how things work in this age with how they are said to work in the age that Matt. 24 is talking about. In our age,,said evil is said to work through false doctrine concerning this mystery!

Get out of your, "hmm, this'd be a good verse by which to maintain my.prop up," and actually get into His Word.

You guys are something else

tranquil · Aug 8, 2014

@ OP and others concerned with the timing of the "rapture"

It's all well and good to have a debate about the timing of the "rapture", but really it's a moot point unless people understand that our entire culture is filled with Satanic lies - from "news" and "science" to politics and pop culture of all stripes.

Satan is going to fake a "cosmic vacuum cleaner rapture". It's as simple as that. It's in the propaganda he spits out. And all he wants you to believe in is that there will be one. This is even aimed at non-Christians.

So, some have convinced people that the "rapture" is "post-tribulation"... All this means is that after Satan has faked the "Rapture" (isn't it convenient there's only a few "news sources"?), the "post-trib" crowd will think it's fine to take the "mark of the Beast" because the antichrist and tribulation comes, then the rapture. Their thoughts would be, "That must mean that Obama was the 'antichrist'", and then go happily take the mark and join the NWO.

And as to the "pre-tribulation" believers.... this crowd will be flummoxed when the faked "rapture" doesn't conform to their expectations of:

1) they, themselves, didn't get "raptured"

and
2) the people who get "raptured" were notable flaming homosexuals, the Pope, wicked Illuminati celebrities, death row inmates, Hindus, etc (the scenario in the "Leftovers" rapture TV show)

The bottom line here is that the Christian culture will have been "divided and conquered". There would be no unified Christian resistance to the mark of the Beast due to this event. Discussing whether or not the "rapture" is pre - or post- trib is merely enhancing the idea in people's heads that it will occur. It's a false dichotomy/ false framing of a debate. The pertinent issue is whether or not it is real (when it happens).

If you are reading this, I have no doubt that you are a sincere, Bible-loving Christian. There will be a "rapture" like you have come to expect, but you won't be part of it. You will not be "raptured". Will you be able to accept this?

bibletruth469 · Aug 8, 2014

n2thelight said:
Why does everybody think the tribulation will last 7 years,when Christ said it will be cut short? I believe the first half will be 3 1/2 years while the 2nd half will be cut to 5 months,which is the time of the locus Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Revelation 9:5 "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man." God has given us a good clue as to how long Satan will rule as Antichrist. That time is five months. The book of Joel describes in detail how this method of the locust works. The result of that torment is exactly as the torment of the scorpion that "striketh a man". So lets try to understand more of both the locust, and the scorpion. This is that locust army of Satan that will deliver up the sons and daughters to prophecy against the Antichrist, as spoken of in Joel 2, and also by Peter in Acts 2. What these sons and daughters say will only be those words that the Holy Spirit speaks through them. Joel said this locust army would march forward, and not miss a stride. Remember, it's not "locust" but men, and the battle which this army enters is a spiritual battle, where the victory is in their deception. Their battle cry is with words like love, joy, peace, brotherhood, equality, and a mixture of words promising peace and prosperity. In the Antichrist rule [the five months] everyone will be satisfied, as long as they continue to yield to this Antichrist. The time "locust" has four stages, as stated in Joel 1. The part of the locust that exists in the swarming stage is five months. That five months staging period is always between May and September; so God is even giving us the season, or time frame when Antichrist will appear. And by that season, we have an hint of when the seventh trumpet will sound, and Jesus Christ will appear. However that instant is known only to the Father. Jesus warned that "we pray that ye not be taken out of season", in Mathew 24:20, and Mark 13:18. This is to alert us that being taken out of season means we have been deceived and fallen for the wrong Christ [Antichrist]. The Antichrist will rule between Passover, and the feast of the tabernacles [trumpets]. Why then the torment as that of a scorpion? This locust army will use the same methods a scorpion uses to attack it's prey and render it's prey harmless, during this five months period. Satan and his locust army will not be in any special form, but will appear exactly as a man, as we do. Satan was in the form of a man in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve, and his fallen angels appeared as men in Genesis 6:1-8, when they married the daughters of men and had "children" [Nephelim] by them. The scorpion has a tail with a stinger in the tail. When they strike their prey, he sneaks up to it's prey and infects it's poison into the victim. Near it's mouth, it has a set of pinchers where it latches on to it's victim and pulls it to it's mouth. This is important, because the scorpion has no stomach, so it cannot digest it's own food within itself. Therefore the scorpion stings with the poison of it's tail to paralyze the victim, and then it vomits it's digestive juices [acids] into the body of the victim, then the victim's skin and body actually become the scorpion's stomach. The acids turn everything it touches into mush. Then the scorpion inhales the mush from the victim's body and is gone. The victim is left defenseless from the beginning of the scorpion's strike, because the poison from the tail rendered the circulatory system and nervous system totally paralyzed, while the digestive acids turned the body to mush. Once stung by a scorpion, instantly you have no defense. You can't fight, run, or even think. You lay helpless to the devouring process of the scorpion. Now that we see how the scorpion attacks, and the methods used by them; let's apply their methods, to Satan and that of this locust army. Satan and his army of fallen angels will take the lies [traditions] within your religion, and the false teaching that you believe to be true; and use it against you. All religions, Christian and otherwise, will be approached on the level and beliefs of their own understanding. They will use the doctrines of their choosing, and through that, the spiritual darts of lies and deception will come. Like the scorpion uses your body for it's battle, and attack, so the angels of the locust army [not human] will use your mind as it's battleground. That is why you must be sealed in your mind [see verse 4] and with the proper armor on, which again is in Ephesians 6:10-20. Your battle is a spiritual one with the king of all demons, Satan, and he is ready for you. The Antichrist has the authority from God, and the right to do business on earth, from the giver of all authority. He knows all your weaknesses, and he knows the Word as well as any theologian. Satan is set to do battle in your mind; and if your relying on false doctrine; like the rapture theory, your gone before the battle starts. If Revelation is still a mystery to you, you don't have a prayer of a chance. You are about to go against the master of all deception, and the truth of God's word is the only thing Satan can't fight against. That is because the truth written in God's Word sets the limits God placed upon him as the Antichrist. How are you doing, friend? The great apostasy is now taking place, and well underway. It is being put in place by Satan's kids, the "Kenites", doing the interpretation of God's Word for you if you allow them. They have a club, and it is easy to join; you just accept their dogma. Part of it is given through the "World Council of Churches", and the other parts are in any church that allows it's doctrine to vary even the slightest into false teaching. Remember, only the "sealed of God", in your mind will allow your escape from all of the Antichrist's deceptions. revelation9

It does not say that . Study both Daniel and revelation . It clearly states that the tribulation time frame is divided up into 2 sets, both for 3 1/2 years .

Danoh · Aug 8, 2014

Perhaps we each ought to share our understanding of the purpose behind Daniel's 70th Week, to begin with - regardless of what timing you each adhere to.

I'm willing to assume that has a lot to do with our differences.

bibletruth469 · Aug 8, 2014

miamited said:
Hi bibletruth, Well, just so we're on the same page, here's the prophecy of the last seven of the 70 sevens: He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. " What this says is that he - and I believe that to be the Antichrist - will confirm a covenant with many - most believe that to be Israel. In the middle of the seven year covenant, he - again speaking of the same one as earlier - will put an end to sacrifice and offering. He will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. So, I would merely ask you: Where do you see that God is going to step into the middle of this 'seven'? What I see is that when the Antichrist first establishes the covenant that it will carry on for 3.5 years and everyone will be happy and satisfied with the covenant. Very few people enter into a covenant that in the very terms and conditions of said covenant they are utterly dissatisfied in the beginning of said covenant. No, usually people enter into a covenant because they feel that what ever their part is or their gain is, is acceptable to them. But in the middle of that covenant period the Antichrist is going to begin some sort of persecution of the people with whom he made the covenant that will apparently include forcing them to cease and desist in any sacrifices or offerings. But, that isn't the end of what we are told of this seven year period. We are told that this will continue until the end that is decreed for him. The midpoint of the covenant as described here only says that he is going to end sacrifices and offerings, but by saying that this will continue 'until', certainly seems to tell me that this issue of the sacrifices and offerings will continue for a while. So, it seems fairly clear to me that there doesn't seem to be anything in this passage that would lead us to believe that God is going to step in in the middle of this covenant, but that sometime after the midpoint, and honestly we aren't given when this might be, that his end will come. The covenant is a seven year covenant, but this idea that God steps in at the midpoint isn't really clearly described, as I read the Scriptures. Neither is it clearly explained that at the end of the seven year covenant we will necessarily come to the end of this age. How do you read it? All we can really say for sure of this covenant is that it will be a covenant which itself is set up to last for a seven year period. That is understood by our now knowing how the rest of the 69 'sevens' were measured. That somewhere about the midpoint of the covenant 'he' will put an end to sacrifices and offerings and 'on the wing of the temple he will set up the abomination that will bring desolation'. That this new order will continue until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. God bless you. In Christ, Ted

We are in agreement with most of the issues mentioned above. One must also look at Matthew 24:15-21 to understand the great tribulation . We know that the abomination of desolation happens at the midpoint, right? And then the passage goes on to say,vs 21" For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be". This is the last half and I believe it to be the wrath of God. This can also tie into revelation 14:7, 15:4, and the bowl judgements which are the wrath of God and are part of the great tribulation ( second half).

I believe that when the antichrist confirms the covenant in the beginning, it will be peaceful , but will be a false peace. It will be broken at midpoint and that's when God will release His wrath . Yes, you are right, we do not have an exact time period for when His wrath will begin, but according to Matthew 24:21, it will be soon after the abomination of desolation.

I believe that one should study the passages that all relate to this subject together instead of separately for a clear understanding .

miamited · Aug 8, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
We are in agreement with most of the issues mentioned above. One must also look at Matthew 24:15-21 to understand the great tribulation . We know that the abomination of desolation happens at the midpoint, right? And then the passage goes on to say,vs 21" For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be". This is the last half and I believe it to be the wrath of God. This can also tie into revelation 14:7, 15:4, and the bowl judgements which are the wrath of God and are part of the great tribulation ( second half).

I believe that when the antichrist confirms the covenant in the beginning, it will be peaceful , but will be a false peace. It will be broken at midpoint and that's when God will release His wrath . Yes, you are right, we do not have an exact time period for when His wrath will begin, but according to Matthew 24:21, it will be soon after the abomination of desolation.

I believe that one should study the passages that all relate to this subject together instead of separately for a clear understanding .

Hi bibletruth,

Again, here is the passage:

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

Here, the NIV translators chose the word 'distress', which quite frankly I think a better word for the very reason that it separates this idea that the 'tribulation' is the same thing as the 'wrath' of God. I respectfully disagree with you as to this giving some gleaning into the time of the rapture. However, the next verses absolutely do:

"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

You see, here he lets us know that it is actually going to be after those same days of distress that he mentions previously that the angels will gather the elect. So, my encouragement to you is to be prepared to persevere if you are here when those great days of tribulation/distress come.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2014

Danoh said:
Perhaps we each ought to share our understanding of the purpose behind Daniel's 70th Week, to begin with - regardless of what timing you each adhere to.

I'm willing to assume that has a lot to do with our differences.

Based on when the angel Gabriel said the 70 weeks was to begin, the 70th week ended about the time that Stephen was stoned. The angel did not say anything about a gap of almost 2,000 years.

Why would you want to discuss something that is not scriptural?

Riberra · Aug 9, 2014

Danoh said:
Wrote in #61
Riberra, your notions per your post #52 above,

Post #52 is not from me.

Riberra · Aug 9, 2014

2 Peter 3:7-13 King James Version (KJV)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=KJV
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Open question:
2 Peter 3:7-13 prophecy
Is this going to happen after the Millennium or at Jesus Second Coming (the day of the Lord)?
At first view 2 Peter 13 seem to fit Revelation 21

Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

While 2 Peter 3 :10-11-12 seem rather to fit Revelation 16:15 +++ through Rev 19 however nothing about the whole Earth burning and the elements melting...the only mention of a fire and something burning is about Babylon the great in Rev 18 ....

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+16&version=KJV
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garments ie(Faith in Jesus Christ+ God's Word), lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Note that 2 Peter 3 v 9 is always taken out of context by the Pre-Trib rapture cultists who wrongly claim that it pertain to the Pre-Trib rapture "promise"......

2 Peter 3 v 9
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=KJV
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

bibletruth469 · Aug 9, 2014

miamited said:
Hi bibletruth, Again, here is the passage: "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. Here, the NIV translators chose the word 'distress', which quite frankly I think a better word for the very reason that it separates this idea that the 'tribulation' is the same thing as the 'wrath' of God. I respectfully disagree with you as to this giving some gleaning into the time of the rapture. However, the next verses absolutely do: "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. You see, here he lets us know that it is actually going to be after those same days of distress that he mentions previously that the angels will gather the elect. So, my encouragement to you is to be prepared to persevere if you are here when those great days of tribulation/distress come. God bless you. In Christ, Ted

It seems like we both agree that the abomination happens at midpoint of the tribulation .

I believe that Matthew 24:31 happens at the end of the tribulation at the second coming of Christ , not the rapture as some believe. Notice , the angels gather the elect in heaven, not the earth. It ties into revelation 19:14, And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean". I believe that the elect in this passage are the believers in Christ, already in heaven who come back with Him. It is a different event than the rapture , 1 cor: 15:52," In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed ".

My third point: all Christians ( true believers in Christ ) will be caught up in the rapture before the tribulation evens starts. Notice 1 theo: 4:16-17, it mentions ALL believers, not just the strong ones . We are all dead in our sins and not worthy without Christ.

miamited · Aug 9, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
It seems like we both agree that the abomination happens at midpoint of the tribulation .

I believe that Matthew 24:31 happens at the end of the tribulation at the second coming of Christ , not the rapture as some believe. Notice , the angels gather the elect in heaven, not the earth. It ties into revelation 19:14, And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean". I believe that the elect in this passage are the believers in Christ, already in heaven who come back with Him. It is a different event than the rapture , 1 cor: 15:52," In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed ".

My third point: all Christians ( true believers in Christ ) will be caught up in the rapture before the tribulation evens starts. Notice 1 theo: 4:16-17, it mentions ALL believers, not just the strong ones . We are all dead in our sins and not worthy without Christ.

Hi bibletruth,

I agree, if you do, that the show of the Antichrist's real agenda is revealed in the middle of the final 'seven'. Now you seem to think that all of the final 'seven' is the period of time referred to as the tribulation. I don't. The tribulation of the saints comes after the Antichrist reveals his true agenda. The 'many' with whom the Antichrist makes his covenant with and most of the world will be pretty satisfied with the situation before his revelation.

Just as the Scripture I referenced says, it is not until we see the abomination which causes desolation that Jesus then begins to speak of the troubles to come. It is after we see the abomination which causes desolation that Jesus warns of fleeing and the dreadful days to come.

So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

No, the Scriptures do not say that the angels will gather the elect 'in' heaven but from the four corners of 'the' heavens. The word heaven/heavens in the Scriptures is used to describe two different places. It is used often to describe 'the heavens' of this realm. Where the stars and planets and asteroids - and yes the earth - exist. It is also used to define the place 'in' heaven where God's throne and the angelic realm exist.

I assume that your reference to 1 theo: 4:16-17 was actually meant to be 1 thessalonians 4:16-17. Theo is not the proper abbreviation for that writing, but I can't honestly think of any other that you may have been referring to. It says:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This specific passage that you reference, if I am correct in assuming it is this passage in Thessalonians, doesn't give even the slightest hint as to 'when' this event will happen, but merely describes 'how' it will happen. However, yes, it does say 'all' so there will be no believers left upon the earth after this great event. I do agree with that.

Here's how it is described in the Revelation:

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.

Notice that it ends with the warning that those who are a part of the second harvest will be cast into 'the great winepress of God's wrath', not God's tribulation. The tribulation is the Antichrist's doing, the wrath of God is from God. This is why Jesus warns us to flee from the days of tribulation after the Antichrist is revealed. The days of the tribulation we will be here and we are warned to flee. The days of God's wrath we will not be here and, as the Scriptures tell us, we have no fear of enduring.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

bibletruth469 · Aug 9, 2014

Hi Ted , you make some good arguments but it sounds like you believe that the the rapture will happen at the middle of tribulation instead of the beginning. If that is the case, we will disagree on some points. Is your belief , mid trib or pre wrath ?

bibletruth469 · Aug 9, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
It seems like we both agree that the abomination happens at midpoint of the tribulation . I believe that Matthew 24:31 happens at the end of the tribulation at the second coming of Christ , not the rapture as some believe. Notice , the angels gather the elect in heaven, not the earth. It ties into revelation 19:14, And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean". I believe that the elect in this passage are the believers in Christ, already in heaven who come back with Him. It is a different event than the rapture , 1 cor: 15:52," In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed ". My third point: all Christians ( true believers in Christ ) will be caught up in the rapture before the tribulation evens starts. Notice 1 theo: 4:16-17, it mentions ALL believers, not just the strong ones . We are all dead in our sins and not worthy without Christ.

The gathering of the elect could be those who are left on the earth after the tribulation instead of Christians coming back with Christ. I cross referenced passages and realized my mistake. In mark's account, it mentions the elect being gathered from the 4 winds which relate to the earth not to those in heaven . Many people who have survived the tribulation will be scattered throughout the earth, mostly because of persecution and great calamities.

miamited · Aug 9, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
Hi Ted , you make some good arguments but it sounds like you believe that the the rapture will happen at the middle of tribulation instead of the beginning. If that is the case, we will disagree on some points. Is your belief , mid trib or pre wrath ?

Hi bibletruth,

I can see how you might misunderstand the Scriptures. Your reading and comprehension skills seem somewhat limited. I'm sorry if that comes across as harsh but I honestly couldn't think of any other way to say it. I can't for the life of me understand how you have come up with this idea that you think that I think the rapture will come in the 'middle' of the tribulation.

I don't have any idea when the 'middle' of the tribulation will be. There is no Scriptural reference to there being any 'middle' of the tribulation. The only 'middle' that is given in regards to this issue is that the Antichrist will reveal himself and his true agenda in the 'middle' of the last 'seven' and then the great tribulation of the saints like has never been seen before will begin. The rapture will come sometime after that.

If we 'assume' that this last 'seven' will be the last seven years of this realm of our existence, then the rapture would come at the end of the last 'seven' of the prophecy given unto Daniel by the angel Gabriel. Here's the timeline as I understand the Scriptures.

The Antichrist will make a seven year covenant with many. He will break that covenant in the middle of the seven years and that will bring on the tribulation of the saints. This is when Jesus told his disciples that they should flee. There will be great tribulation from the Antichrist and all those who follow after him against the faithful of God. This will likely go on for a number of years. At least the last half of the last 'seven'. Sometime after the saints have been enduring these days of tribulation God will send His Son, one like the son of man, to gather all that are his in the world and from their graves. Immediately after Jesus has removed his from the earth God will release his pent up wrath against all the ungodly who remain.

So, let me assure you that no, I am not inclined to believe that the rapture will occur in the 'middle' of the 'seven' in which the Antichrist makes his pact with the many. The 'middle' is only the days when the real tribulation starts. Just so you aren't further confused, yes, the rapture will occur before God's wrath is released upon the unbelieving. For we are not destined to endure the wrath of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Aug 9, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
The gathering of the elect could be those who are left on the earth after the tribulation instead of Christians coming back with Christ. I cross referenced passages and realized my mistake. In mark's account, it mentions the elect being gathered from the 4 winds which relate to the earth not to those in heaven . Many people who have survived the tribulation will be scattered throughout the earth, mostly because of persecution and great calamities.

Hi bibletruth,

The gathering of the elect will be all the believers who have endured the days of the tribulation of the Antichrist and his armies and all the believers who rest in the grave. Paul probably makes the most clear statement regarding this:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Even Paul makes clear just prior to this passage that this will not happen until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. It doesn't specify 'immediately', but rather he tells them that this will not happen until after the Antichrist is revealed.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

There is only one rapture of the believers and it will be at one time at the end of the tribulation of the saints and the dead will rise up out of their graves and the living will rise to meet with them and be enjoined to our Lord. Praise God! Immediately after that the angel who ushers in God's wrath will swing his sharp sickle and gather all those who are left and throw them into the wine press of God's wrath.

Then comes the thousand year reign of Jesus upon the earth. He will return with all the saints after God has rid the earth of all the unbelieving, for they will not be resurrected again until after the 1000 year reign. Then after the 1000 year reign, the unbelievers will be raised and we who have lived for 1000 years with Jesus will all attend the great judgment of God upon all men. All those, who at that time have their name in the Lamb's book of Life will be taken with God to the new Jerusalem where He will be our God and we will be His people. Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of Life will be cast, along with Satan and his minions into the eternal existence apart from God where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all of eternity.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Interplanner · Aug 10, 2014

The Thess material has to do with the 1st century. That's why it mentions the standing temple and why the wrath on Israel is said to be past-tense. He understood the 490 years to be concluding.

bibletruth469 · Aug 10, 2014

miamited said:
Hi bibletruth, I can see how you might misunderstand the Scriptures. Your reading and comprehension skills seem somewhat limited. I'm sorry if that comes across as harsh but I honestly couldn't think of any other way to say it. I can't for the life of me understand how you have come up with this idea that you think that I think the rapture will come in the 'middle' of the tribulation. I don't have any idea when the 'middle' of the tribulation will be. There is no Scriptural reference to there being any 'middle' of the tribulation. The only 'middle' that is given in regards to this issue is that the Antichrist will reveal himself and his true agenda in the 'middle' of the last 'seven' and then the great tribulation of the saints like has never been seen before will begin. The rapture will come sometime after that. If we 'assume' that this last 'seven' will be the last seven years of this realm of our existence, then the rapture would come at the end of the last 'seven' of the prophecy given unto Daniel by the angel Gabriel. Here's the timeline as I understand the Scriptures. The Antichrist will make a seven year covenant with many. He will break that covenant in the middle of the seven years and that will bring on the tribulation of the saints. This is when Jesus told his disciples that they should flee. There will be great tribulation from the Antichrist and all those who follow after him against the faithful of God. This will likely go on for a number of years. At least the last half of the last 'seven'. Sometime after the saints have been enduring these days of tribulation God will send His Son, one like the son of man, to gather all that are his in the world and from their graves. Immediately after Jesus has removed his from the earth God will release his pent up wrath against all the ungodly who remain. So, let me assure you that no, I am not inclined to believe that the rapture will occur in the 'middle' of the 'seven' in which the Antichrist makes his pact with the many. The 'middle' is only the days when the real tribulation starts. Just so you aren't further confused, yes, the rapture will occur before God's wrath is released upon the unbelieving. For we are not destined to endure the wrath of God. God bless you. In Christ, Ted

Now I finally understand your point of view. You were not clear in your posts until now that you adhere to a post tribulational view. Our interpretation of the scripture concerning the timing rapture will be will be vastly different. I do believe that the scripture does teach pre tribulation so we will not agree. Of course you will say that my interpretation and understanding is not correct because you are looking at the scripture from a different perspective than I do.

First of all, we both tend to agree that the 70th week of Daniel is a full 7 year time frame.we both agree that the antichrist confirms the peace accord in the beginning and breaks it in the middle . I believe that Christians will not be on earth during that time; you believe they will be on the earth.I believe that Christian believers will be kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole earth. Rev 3:10. We are also looking for Jesus Christ , not the antichrist . Titus 2:13 states, " waiting for our blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and savior Jesus Christ." ESV . 1 thess 1:10, " And to wait for His son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come". These are a couple of pre tribulation verses that are contained in the scripture .

There are many interpretations concerning the elect of Matthew 24:31. I hold the view that the elect must be the people who become believers in Christ after the tribulation and it is not the rapture of the church. I come to this conclusion for the reasons listed. 1) in Matt , angels gather the elect; at the rapture, God himself gathers the elect. 2) Matt 24 passage, elect will be gathered from all over the world, 1 thess 4:16-17, believers are gathered in the air. 3) The church is not mentioned in Matt 24:31, therefore, it is not a reference to the rapture. 4) Matt 24:31 mentions nothing about the dead in Christ and the alive that remain to be taken up' caught up' as in 1 thess 4.

The people who adhere to a post tribulation view must realize that the detailed account of the second coming of Christ found in the book of revelation 19-20 nowhere mentions either mentions a rapture. It mentions Christ who comes back to the earth. There is no place to insert the rapture passages found in 1 thess 4 and 1 cor 15:51-52. Also, the above rapture passages include the translation of believers where the Matt 24:31 only mentions a gathering.

Lastly, I want to bring up John 14:1-4Jesus himself states," Let not your hearts be troubled . Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Fathers house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also . And you know the way to where I am going". ESV .

miamited · Aug 10, 2014

Hi bibletruth,

You wrote: The people who adhere to a post tribulation view must realize that the detailed account of the second coming of Christ found in the book of revelation 19-20 nowhere mentions either mentions a rapture.

Revelations 19 and 20 do not discuss the rapture. The time discussed in those chapters is what happens after the rapture. The rapture itself is told to us in Revelation 14.

You also wrote: Lastly, I want to bring up John 14:1-4Jesus himself states," Let not your hearts be troubled . Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Fathers house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also . And you know the way to where I am going".

No one is debating that the believers will be with Jesus. Our discussion here is strictly in regards to the 'time' of the rapture. You really do need to work on those reading comprehension skills.

And you wrote: Now I finally understand your point of view. You were not clear in your posts until now that you adhere to a post tribulational view. Our interpretation of the scripture concerning the timing rapture will be will be vastly different.

No, you still don't understand. My understanding is not 'post' tribulation. The tribulation will be going on when Jesus comes to gather his own. As the Scriptures say, there would be no faithful ones left on the earth had not God Himself cut short those days. The tribulation will be on going at the time that Jesus comes to gather the elect of God which will be followed immediately by the release of the wrath of God. For we are not children destined for God's wrath. My understanding is pre-wrath, for that is what the Scriptures tell us when they assure us that we are not children destined for the wrath of God. I will repeat one more time for you that the days of great tribulation like as has never been seen before on the earth are not the same days as the day of God's wrath. The days of great tribulation lead into the day of God's wrath.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

MoreCoffee · Aug 10, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period....

Wrath and tribulation are not really synonyms in the bible. wrath is about God's judgement while tribulation is about worldly persecution meted out against Christians. The bible constantly warns Christians to expect trials and tribulation for their faith in Jesus Christ and assures Christians that because of their union with Jesus Christ they are freed from the wrath that is to come.

BABerean2 · Aug 10, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
Now I finally understand your point of view. You were not clear in your posts until now that you adhere to a post tribulational view. Our interpretation of the scripture concerning the timing rapture will be will be vastly different. I do believe that the scripture does teach pre tribulation so we will not agree. Of course you will say that my interpretation and understanding is not correct because you are looking at the scripture from a different perspective than I do.

First of all, we both tend to agree that the 70th week of Daniel is a full 7 year time frame.we both agree that the antichrist confirms the peace accord in the beginning and breaks it in the middle . I believe that Christians will not be on earth during that time; you believe they will be on the earth.I believe that Christian believers will be kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole earth. Rev 3:10. We are also looking for Jesus Christ , not the antichrist . Titus 2:13 states, " waiting for our blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and savior Jesus Christ." ESV . 1 thess 1:10, " And to wait for His son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come". These are a couple of pre tribulation verses that are contained in the scripture .

There are many interpretations concerning the elect of Matthew 24:31. I hold the view that the elect must be the people who become believers in Christ after the tribulation and it is not the rapture of the church. I come to this conclusion for the reasons listed. 1) in Matt , angels gather the elect; at the rapture, God himself gathers the elect. 2) Matt 24 passage, elect will be gathered from all over the world, 1 thess 4:16-17, believers are gathered in the air. 3) The church is not mentioned in Matt 24:31, therefore, it is not a reference to the rapture. 4) Matt 24:31 mentions nothing about the dead in Christ and the alive that remain to be taken up' caught up' as in 1 thess 4.

The people who adhere to a post tribulation view must realize that the detailed account of the second coming of Christ found in the book of revelation 19-20 nowhere mentions either mentions a rapture. It mentions Christ who comes back to the earth. There is no place to insert the rapture passages found in 1 thess 4 and 1 cor 15:51-52. Also, the above rapture passages include the translation of believers where the Matt 24:31 only mentions a gathering.

Lastly, I want to bring up John 14:1-4Jesus himself states," Let not your hearts be troubled . Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Fathers house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also . And you know the way to where I am going". ESV .

The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet. The "mystery" is also found in 1st Cor. chapter 15.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If the "mystery of God" in the verse below is not the Church or the rapture, then what is it in your opinion?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th trumpet is the time that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

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