Rapture Before Wrath

[Bro in Christ]

B.I.C., if you're familiar with the history of Acts Dispenasationalism's Eschatology, it progressed from the distinction that passages like Matt. 24 taught a Pre-Trib Rapture, to no longer holding to that.

I do not really look at historical beliefs ... I look at the bible and see what it says Matt 24 was during law and rapture was a mystery according to 1 cor 15:51-53

In this, it progressed in those finer distinctions these issues demand be studied out.

It has yet to progress from its continued assertion that the Body began on what that Apostle of the CIRCUMCISION - Israel - refers to as Israel's "last days," there in Acts 2.

gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters

acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty

this does not look like all flesh.... this verse is looking at after the great trib after the sheep and goat judgement when only believers are going into the 1000 yr reign of Christ which connects to Joel 2



instead of visions and dreams in acts 2:17 connecting to Joel 2 they spoke in tongues which is a sign of power from the spirit yet different sign





2 tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.




2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days , walking in their own lusts.

Nor does it distinguish between Israel's baptism with the Spirit by Christ, Matt. 3, and the Body's baptism by the Spirit, 1 Cor. 12.

And those are just two of the many distinctions between things that Acts Two Dispensationalism is off on.

Matt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. ,11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

john 1:31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence

romans 8:9b Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 cor 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling[to salvation];5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

In fact, most of those Eschatological distinctions A2D makes to the Body are, when corrrect, Mid-Acts.

Gainsay it all you want, but, seeing as we will all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, you should at least receive it with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures daily whether those things are so, Acts 17:11.

Instead, you right off write it off because it doesn't fit your "context."

Brother, consider what I say, and the Lord give thee understanding...

disagree. fine ... bring verses then we can discuss .... bible is the only true thing since it was breathed by God Jn 1:1

 

[Danoh]

Man, B.I.C. those passages actually contradict your assertions - compare who John the Baptist asserted, in Matt. 3, would be performing Israel's Spirit baptism, and who Paul asserts is performing the Body's Spirit baptism, in 1 Cor. 12.

Per John, Jesus baptizes Israel with the Spirit, while, per Paul, the Spirit baptizes the Body.

As for the "all flesh" I already dealt with that as well - per Hebrews 2:5, Acts 2's "day of Pentecost" had been a foretaste of the Hebrew's - Peter's "ye men of Israel... let all the house of Israel know assuredly" of their "world to come."

We need to distinguish between their "spoken by the prophet Joel" PROPHESIED last days Eschatology, and the Body's "kept secret since the world began" last days.

Between their PROPHESIED Grace, 1 Peter 1, and the Body's "HID IN GOD... from the beginning of the world" Grace, Eph. 3:9.

Their Grace will enable their faithful to endure unto the end of that coming trial, or, hour of their temptation, James 1; Rev. 3.

Our Grace "hath delivered us from the wrath to come," 1 Thess. 1:10.

Why do you think Jesus said "I will build MY CHURCH," rather than "a church," if not "another church" - Because they knew what He was talking about, as this church had been PROPHESIED. And why do you think it says "and when the day of Pentecost WAS FULLY COME"?

I'll leave you to search the passages explaining that.

How many distinctions between their PROPHESIED Destiny and the Body's BEFORE THE WORLD WAS Distinction do you need - believe me, Mid-Acts has plenty

 

[n2thelight]

Hi there,

I don't know if you noticed this but Matthew 24 points to a Pre-Trib rapture "twice" in Matt 24:31 and Matt 24:14.

Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The key word in Matt 24:31 is "heaven." Christ send His angels to gather His elects (FirstFruit of the Church) in heaven.

You can't rapture or resurrect anyone already in heaven. Even Mark 13:27 confirms the gathering of the FirstFruit of the church already raptured and waiting in heaven (in our individual chambers: Mansion - Isaiah 26:20) and the FirstFruit of Israel left on earth that must go through Jacob's trouble.

Those who have died are already in Heaven......

Matthew 24:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Noticed how Matthew used the words "then the end will come" at verse 14? He's referring to the end for the church, which is before the tribulation. Notice Matthew starts talking about the tribulation at Matthew 24:15?

Now for those wondering why did Matthew skips 3.5 years into the AoD when that's at the middle of the tribulation, it's because Israel is at peace the first half of the tribulation and the church is gone. Therefore nothing needs to be written about the first 3.5 years.

1 Corinthians 15:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

"THE END" in Matt 24:14 is the same as the one in 1st Cor 15:24, they both refer to the end in the chapter of the Church Age and the start of the tribulation.

The end for the church is at the beginning of the tribulation or you can call it Pre-Trib, it's not at the end of the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation is a time of deliverance for the 144,000 FirstFruit of Israel where Christ returns to save them from annihilation, not the church.

So in Matthew 24, there's two evidence of a Pre-Trib rapture, and a debunk of a Post-Trib rapture.

___________________________________

One other thing, there's a resurrection of the dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation of only those that died of beheading to the antichrist during the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 20:4. Only they get resurrected, there's no rapture, and no resurrection of the dead in Christ that ever lived before the tribulation.

Now if the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, why would there be a need for a resurrection at the end also. And why only those that died by beheading will get to live again and reign with Christ?

So from a post-trib viewpoint, the only way to live and reign with Christ while in the tribulation is to die to the Antichrist by beheading, not by natural disaster or nuclear annihilation.

And it doesn't do much good preparing yourself stocking up on canned goods and living in a bomb shelter in the tribulation because the bible said if you're in the tribulation, the only way to reign with Christ is to die by beheading.

I don't think this is God's planned is for the church.

Revelation 20:4 New Living Translation (NLT)
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Just something to think about.

The problem is the fact that you seperate Israel from the Church,can't be done....

 

[n2thelight]

Proverbs 18:2 (ERV)
Fools don’t want to learn from others. They only want to tell their own ideas.

Proverbs 18:7 (ERV)
Fools hurt themselves when they speak. Their own words trap them.




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“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matt 13:34

“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34​

“This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6​

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13​

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[Bro in Christ]

QUOTE=Danoh;66114140]Man, B.I.C. those passages actually contradict your assertions - compare who John the Baptist asserted, in Matt. 3, would be performing Israel's Spirit baptism, and who Paul asserts is performing the Body's Spirit baptism, in 1 Cor. 12.John the Baptist did not spirit Baptist anyone but maybe Christ thus the reason for John 14-16

Per John, Jesus baptizes Israel with the Spirit, while, per Paul, the Spirit baptizes the Body..... verses?
As for the "all flesh" I already dealt with that as well - per Hebrews 2:5, Acts 2's "day of Pentecost" had been a foretaste of the Hebrew's - Peter's "ye men of Israel... let all the house of Israel know assuredly" of their "world to come."when all flesh happens with visions and dreams its after the wrath of God is finished very clear in scripture where they will not have a bible anymore because its in the heart[brain]

We need to distinguish between their "spoken by the prophet Joel" PROPHESIED last days Eschatology, and the Body's "kept secret since the world began" last days.

Between their PROPHESIED Grace, 1 Peter 1, and the Body's "HID IN GOD... from the beginning of the world" Grace, Eph. 3:9.


Their Grace will enable their faithful to endure unto the end of that coming trial, or, hour of their temptation, James 1; Rev. 3. both are church verses rev 4 is the raptured church in heaven James 1:12 talks about a crown earned which we throw at Christ feet in rev 4:10

Our Grace "hath delivered us from the wrath to come," 1 Thess. 1:10.

Why do you think Jesus said "I will build MY CHURCH," rather than "a church," if not "another church" - Because they knew what He was talking about, as this church had been PROPHESIED. And why do you think it says "and when the day of Pentecost WAS FULLY COME"? verse? I'll leave you to search the passages explaining that.

How many distinctions between their PROPHESIED Destiny and the Body's BEFORE THE WORLD WAS Distinction do you need - believe me, Mid-Acts has plenty [/QUOTE]

bring it ... so I can see what the heck

 

[keras]

Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the righteous, those accounted worthy, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth.
But what we cannot say is that any human will avoid the wrath to come by removal to heaven. Yes, the Lord will protect those 'who make Him their refuge'. Nahum 1:1-8

 

[n2thelight]

Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the righteous, those accounted worthy, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth.
But what we cannot say is that any human will avoid the wrath to come by removal to heaven. Yes, the Lord will protect those 'who make Him their refuge'. Nahum 1:1-8

The subject here is being born again


John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This is a very interesting statement, and in most King James Bibles the margin reads "again" as being "from above". In Strong's Greek dictionary, # 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above". You will never understand this statement that Jesus made unless you understand what it means to be "born from above."


John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

"Here now is the second witness to those things given, as to how you must be born from above. There is no way that you can make baptism out of this verse. It sums up the whole matter of being born from above.

No man, no one goes to heaven, but that he first was born from above. That soul must first be born of women, where the soul entered the womb at conception, and when the flesh body dies, it is returned to the father. There is not a living being on this earth, that did not come down from the Father first, and at death shall return to the Father. That is just plain common sense.

This doesn't mean that they are all going to have eternal life, but heaven is where the Father is, and that is where the judgment takes place. But what is meant here is in reference to obtaining salvation for their soul, or eternal life. All souls return to the Father, and many of those that do return will be condemned to destruction. The judgment takes place at the time of the great white throne judgment. Until that time, those sinning souls will stay right there in paradise where there is a great gulf between God and the sinning soul This is stated in the parable of the rich man, in Luke 16. There has been no soul destroyed to this date, that has passed on after death.
So what this thirteenth verse is saying, is about being born again. It means that you must be born from above.

john3

 

[keras]

Sorry, n2, you are making that passage in John3 fit your preconceived idea of what happens to the soul. That chapter is all about belief and faith.
This thread is about the rapture and my contention, supported by scripture, is that no human goes to heaven - at any time. We are earth beings, God has angels to serve Him in heaven. Yes, the souls of everyone who has died are kept, some to be brought to life at the Return and the rest await the Great White throne judgement.
Many scriptures say how we have tasks to do now and particularly during the tough times ahead. But great are the blessings promised to those who hold to their faith in God.

 

[n2thelight]

Sorry, n2, you are making that passage in John3 fit your preconceived idea of what happens to the soul. That chapter is all about belief and faith.
This thread is about the rapture and my contention, supported by scripture, is that no human goes to heaven - at any time. We are earth beings, God has angels to serve Him in heaven. Yes, the souls of everyone who has died are kept, some to be brought to life at the Return and the rest await the Great White throne judgement.
Many scriptures say how we have tasks to do now and particularly during the tough times ahead. But great are the blessings promised to those who hold to their faith in God.

We are with God before being born...

As for what happens to the soul,scripture is clear


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

 

[keras]

Your Eccl. quote is right, God keeps the soul/spirit.
Were you conscious before you were born?
Will you be conscious after you die?

As I say in #48, most people who die, the next thing they will be conscious of, will be standing in front of Almighty God, sitting on his Throne and their judgement will be given. Rev 20:12
The exception is those saints resurrected as per Rev 20:4.

 

[bibletruth469]

Hi BT, Unfortunately, there are many among the fellowship of 'christians' who have bought into this understanding that the passages that speak of God's wrath and the passages that speak of the tribulation are the same thing. I'm solidly convicted that they aren't, but you'll have to choose to study up on that if you want to know. Here's the gist of it. The tribulation is the time of suffering pressed upon believers by the policies and practices of the Antichrist and all those that will follow after him, which according to the Scriptures will be just about everyone. The wrath of God is God's doing. It is His wrath that will be released upon the whole earth against those remaining after the rapture. It is my understanding that believers will be on the earth during the tribulation, but they won't be on the earth when God releases His wrath. God bless you. In Christ, Ted

Hi Ted , the tribulation period is a total of seven years( Daniels 70th week). The wrath of God is the last 3 1/2 years. The rapture itself does not start the tribulation period. It starts with the signing of the peace accord with the antichrist. Dan 9:27. It is my belief that all believers will be raptured , however people will still be able to be saved during the 7 year tribulation .

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry, n2, you are making that passage in John3 fit your preconceived idea of what happens to the soul. That chapter is all about belief and faith.
This thread is about the rapture and my contention, supported by scripture, is that no human goes to heaven - at any time. We are earth beings, God has angels to serve Him in heaven. Yes, the souls of everyone who has died are kept, some to be brought to life at the Return and the rest await the Great White throne judgement.
Many scriptures say how we have tasks to do now and particularly during the tough times ahead. But great are the blessings promised to those who hold to their faith in God.

Every human is made up of soul and flesh. Sometimes it is confusing if we are not clear which we are speaking of. According to scripture many souls are in heaven now, and in a conscious state, according to the following text. Or, am I missing something here?

We humans tend to focus on the rotten part of us, which is our flesh. This seems to be one of the greatest problems with those who think we will not go through persecution during the Rev. 12:12 tribulation.

Christ saves our immortal soul.

He did not save this rotten mass of flesh, that we think is so important.



Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

.

 

[n2thelight]

Hi Ted , the tribulation period is a total of seven years( Daniels 70th week). The wrath of God is the last 3 1/2 years. The rapture itself does not start the tribulation period. It starts with the signing of the peace accord with the antichrist. Dan 9:27. It is my belief that all believers will be raptured , however people will still be able to be saved during the 7 year tribulation .

Why does everybody think the tribulation will last 7 years,when Christ said it will be cut short?

I believe the first half will be 3 1/2 years while the 2nd half will be cut to 5 months,which is the time of the locus

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Revelation 9:5 "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

God has given us a good clue as to how long Satan will rule as Antichrist. That time is five months. The book of Joel describes in detail how this method of the locust works. The result of that torment is exactly as the torment of the scorpion that "striketh a man". So lets try to understand more of both the locust, and the scorpion.
This is that locust army of Satan that will deliver up the sons and daughters to prophecy against the Antichrist, as spoken of in Joel 2, and also by Peter in Acts 2. What these sons and daughters say will only be those words that the Holy Spirit speaks through them.

Joel said this locust army would march forward, and not miss a stride. Remember, it's not "locust" but men, and the battle which this army enters is a spiritual battle, where the victory is in their deception. Their battle cry is with words like love, joy, peace, brotherhood, equality, and a mixture of words promising peace and prosperity. In the Antichrist rule [the five months] everyone will be satisfied, as long as they continue to yield to this Antichrist.

The time "locust" has four stages, as stated in Joel 1. The part of the locust that exists in the swarming stage is five months. That five months staging period is always between May and September; so God is even giving us the season, or time frame when Antichrist will appear. And by that season, we have an hint of when the seventh trumpet will sound, and Jesus Christ will appear. However that instant is known only to the Father.

Jesus warned that "we pray that ye not be taken out of season", in Mathew 24:20, and Mark 13:18. This is to alert us that being taken out of season means we have been deceived and fallen for the wrong Christ [Antichrist]. The Antichrist will rule between Passover, and the feast of the tabernacles [trumpets].

Why then the torment as that of a scorpion? This locust army will use the same methods a scorpion uses to attack it's prey and render it's prey harmless, during this five months period. Satan and his locust army will not be in any special form, but will appear exactly as a man, as we do. Satan was in the form of a man in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve, and his fallen angels appeared as men in Genesis 6:1-8, when they married the daughters of men and had "children" [Nephelim] by them.

The scorpion has a tail with a stinger in the tail. When they strike their prey, he sneaks up to it's prey and infects it's poison into the victim. Near it's mouth, it has a set of pinchers where it latches on to it's victim and pulls it to it's mouth. This is important, because the scorpion has no stomach, so it cannot digest it's own food within itself. Therefore the scorpion stings with the poison of it's tail to paralyze the victim, and then it vomits it's digestive juices [acids] into the body of the victim, then the victim's skin and body actually become the scorpion's stomach.

The acids turn everything it touches into mush. Then the scorpion inhales the mush from the victim's body and is gone. The victim is left defenseless from the beginning of the scorpion's strike, because the poison from the tail rendered the circulatory system and nervous system totally paralyzed, while the digestive acids turned the body to mush. Once stung by a scorpion, instantly you have no defense. You can't fight, run, or even think. You lay helpless to the devouring process of the scorpion.

Now that we see how the scorpion attacks, and the methods used by them; let's apply their methods, to Satan and that of this locust army. Satan and his army of fallen angels will take the lies [traditions] within your religion, and the false teaching that you believe to be true; and use it against you. All religions, Christian and otherwise, will be approached on the level and beliefs of their own understanding. They will use the doctrines of their choosing, and through that, the spiritual darts of lies and deception will come.

Like the scorpion uses your body for it's battle, and attack, so the angels of the locust army [not human] will use your mind as it's battleground. That is why you must be sealed in your mind [see verse 4] and with the proper armor on, which again is in Ephesians 6:10-20. Your battle is a spiritual one with the king of all demons, Satan, and he is ready for you.

The Antichrist has the authority from God, and the right to do business on earth, from the giver of all authority. He knows all your weaknesses, and he knows the Word as well as any theologian. Satan is set to do battle in your mind; and if your relying on false doctrine; like the rapture theory, your gone before the battle starts. If Revelation is still a mystery to you, you don't have a prayer of a chance.
You are about to go against the master of all deception, and the truth of God's word is the only thing Satan can't fight against. That is because the truth written in God's Word sets the limits God placed upon him as the Antichrist. How are you doing, friend?

The great apostasy is now taking place, and well underway. It is being put in place by Satan's kids, the "Kenites", doing the interpretation of God's Word for you if you allow them. They have a club, and it is easy to join; you just accept their dogma. Part of it is given through the "World Council of Churches", and the other parts are in any church that allows it's doctrine to vary even the slightest into false teaching.
Remember, only the "sealed of God", in your mind will allow your escape from all of the Antichrist's deceptions.


revelation9

 

[Danoh]

Context, fellas, context! lol

Jesus referring to those words He gave Moses, in Moses' context, and that, with regard to Israel - "Art thou a master of ISRAEL, and knowest not these things?," John 3:10.

As in Romans 10 as to ISRAEL, v. 1.

There they were, confessing Him with their lips,through their reading aloud of Torah, like their "masters" can be seeing doing at their Wailing Walll; their heart so far from Him they, and continue to fail, in their reading of the Law and the Prophets, that Who they pray through His Word, was, is their very Word, in word, an in deed, before their very eyes and ears. So blinded by their traditions, they failed to acknowledge Thy Word as to Thee that we have so prayed up to thee, oh so long, LORD, is here at last, is nigh thee, O Son of God...

Moses' word as to Who this had been a prophecy only those born from above as to their understanding of.who He was - through Moses and the Prophets, John 1, which is what He had meant in His Words to Peter "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven," Maty.m16:17, for the Law and the Prophets - the Word, from heaven, that had returned to heaven in their prayer of said Word, had at last come back down from Heaven, the Word of God, made flesh, and we beheld His glory...

I purposely left out Moses' word on this - that you "search the scriptures, for they are they which speak of" Him, that "ye believe Moses" on this, over your own notions.

That's the literal spiritual!!!

 

[Riberra]

Source about:
THE ANTICHRIST.

How satan, as antichrist claiming to be the True Christ, is enabled to deceive and cause the various "belief systems" of the world into unknowingly worshiping him as the True Messiah

Atheists and agnostics will believe him to be the true Christ when the antichrist shows up in person performing miracles and stating that he is the Savior, also offering forgiveness if they believe upon and worship him.

Moslems will follow, when the antichrist states that he is the one they call "The One" who has come to lead them to the promised land.

Satan worshipers and the occultists will convert, when antichrist comes stating that he offers salvation to them if they repent and worship him as the True Messiah.

Pagans as well as those who worship many different gods (sun gods, earth gods, wind gods, water gods, warrior gods...), will forsake their deities and worship antichrist as their messiah, when he comes showing wonders and making lightning come down from heaven on command; satan will have this power, allowed to him by God (Rev 13:13+14).

Religious Jews who are still waiting for the First Advent of the Messiah, will flock to antichrist, as he shows himself off to be the True Messiah written of in the Torah. The first time the True Messiah came to them, they not only rejected Him, they murdered Him, and now when the fake comes they will accept and worship him - sad, is it not?

All Christian denominations and the Christian Rapturists will believe the first supernatural being that comes to the earth claiming to be Jesus Christ. And for the Rapturist who had been deceived with the false PRE-TRIB Rapture doctrine, he will be led away with the promise of a Rapture. They will ALL unknowingly worship satan as an instead-of Christ, the antichrist.
Not because they are evil, but because they were not warned by the false teachers/preachers whom are nothing more than the wolves in sheep's clothing.
These are perhaps the saddest of all the deceived; for they had a fair chance, they had the truth set before them by God in their own Bibles. They just preferred the "feel good" doctrines of men over the Word of our Lord. They have degenerated into a pitiful state of being a hypocrite and a 'finger pointer.' Jesus foresaw this and He spoke of it: "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." (Matt 23:24).
They worry more about whether brother so-and-so was at the tavern having a drink, or if he's a divorcee or not, rather than the fact that they are spiraling into worshiping satan as the imposter to the Lord they love; sad, is it not?
If you are still following us here, then I say to you, "Pretty scary, huh?" And if we have left anyone out above, don't worry, satan will be sure to give them every opportunity to participate in the great apostasy. This is not some new revelation, or some off-the-wall new prophecy, this has been written in your Bibles all along - but the false teachers/preachers have hid it from you. What are you going to do? Lay down and die - eternally, or study your Heavenly Father's Written Word whereby you can overcome! The choice is yours, and you do have to make a choice or satan will make it for you.
Satan was not always evil though, he was once good, believe it or not, he was a "Cherubim that covereth" (Ezek 28:14), which is a protecting Angel that guarded the Mercy Seat; a seat that Christ Himself sits upon. Satan was at the first a good angel: "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezek 28:15). But his first transgression was vanity, he didn't want to guard the Mercy Seat, he wanted to sit on it, as Christ, as God, and still seeks that today. And for a five month period in the end times, he will accomplish just that as the antichrist:

2nd Thess 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (KJV)
​

Satan is "that man of sin" and"the son of perdition". Some will try to tell you that Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ, is the son of perdition. This is untrue and to document: In verse 4 above we see: "the son of perdition" who: "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Judas Iscariot never did that, Judas never said that he was God. In fact after he realized that they were really going to crucify Jesus, and that Jesus was going to let it happen; Judas threw the money that he was paid to betray Jesus down onto the temple floor.

 

[Isaiah Jeremiah]

Why does everybody think the tribulation will last 7 years,when Christ said it will be cut short?

I believe the first half will be 3 1/2 years while the 2nd half will be cut to 5 months,which is the time of the locus

:o

 

[Riberra]

Why does everybody think the tribulation will last 7 years,when Christ said it will be cut short?

I believe the first half will be 3 1/2 years while the 2nd half will be cut to 5 months,which is the time of the locus

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Revelation 9:5 "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

God has given us a good clue as to how long Satan will rule as Antichrist. That time is five months. The book of Joel describes in detail how this method of the locust works. The result of that torment is exactly as the torment of the scorpion that "striketh a man". So lets try to understand more of both the locust, and the scorpion.
This is that locust army of Satan that will deliver up the sons and daughters to prophecy against the Antichrist, as spoken of in Joel 2, and also by Peter in Acts 2. What these sons and daughters say will only be those words that the Holy Spirit speaks through them.

Joel said this locust army would march forward, and not miss a stride. Remember, it's not "locust" but men, and the battle which this army enters is a spiritual battle, where the victory is in their deception. Their battle cry is with words like love, joy, peace, brotherhood, equality, and a mixture of words promising peace and prosperity. In the Antichrist rule [the five months] everyone will be satisfied, as long as they continue to yield to this Antichrist.

The time "locust" has four stages, as stated in Joel 1. The part of the locust that exists in the swarming stage is five months. That five months staging period is always between May and September; so God is even giving us the season, or time frame when Antichrist will appear. And by that season, we have an hint of when the seventh trumpet will sound, and Jesus Christ will appear. However that instant is known only to the Father.

Jesus warned that "we pray that ye not be taken out of season", in Mathew 24:20, and Mark 13:18. This is to alert us that being taken out of season means we have been deceived and fallen for the wrong Christ [Antichrist]. The Antichrist will rule between Passover, and the feast of the tabernacles [trumpets].

Why then the torment as that of a scorpion? This locust army will use the same methods a scorpion uses to attack it's prey and render it's prey harmless, during this five months period. Satan and his locust army will not be in any special form, but will appear exactly as a man, as we do. Satan was in the form of a man in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve, and his fallen angels appeared as men in Genesis 6:1-8, when they married the daughters of men and had "children" [Nephelim] by them.

The scorpion has a tail with a stinger in the tail. When they strike their prey, he sneaks up to it's prey and infects it's poison into the victim. Near it's mouth, it has a set of pinchers where it latches on to it's victim and pulls it to it's mouth. This is important, because the scorpion has no stomach, so it cannot digest it's own food within itself. Therefore the scorpion stings with the poison of it's tail to paralyze the victim, and then it vomits it's digestive juices [acids] into the body of the victim, then the victim's skin and body actually become the scorpion's stomach.

The acids turn everything it touches into mush. Then the scorpion inhales the mush from the victim's body and is gone. The victim is left defenseless from the beginning of the scorpion's strike, because the poison from the tail rendered the circulatory system and nervous system totally paralyzed, while the digestive acids turned the body to mush. Once stung by a scorpion, instantly you have no defense. You can't fight, run, or even think. You lay helpless to the devouring process of the scorpion.

Now that we see how the scorpion attacks, and the methods used by them; let's apply their methods, to Satan and that of this locust army. Satan and his army of fallen angels will take the lies [traditions] within your religion, and the false teaching that you believe to be true; and use it against you. All religions, Christian and otherwise, will be approached on the level and beliefs of their own understanding. They will use the doctrines of their choosing, and through that, the spiritual darts of lies and deception will come.

Like the scorpion uses your body for it's battle, and attack, so the angels of the locust army [not human] will use your mind as it's battleground. That is why you must be sealed in your mind [see verse 4] and with the proper armor on, which again is in Ephesians 6:10-20. Your battle is a spiritual one with the king of all demons, Satan, and he is ready for you.

The Antichrist has the authority from God, and the right to do business on earth, from the giver of all authority. He knows all your weaknesses, and he knows the Word as well as any theologian. Satan is set to do battle in your mind; and if your relying on false doctrine; like the rapture theory, your gone before the battle starts. If Revelation is still a mystery to you, you don't have a prayer of a chance.
You are about to go against the master of all deception, and the truth of God's word is the only thing Satan can't fight against. That is because the truth written in God's Word sets the limits God placed upon him as the Antichrist. How are you doing, friend?

The great apostasy is now taking place, and well underway. It is being put in place by Satan's kids, the "Kenites", doing the interpretation of God's Word for you if you allow them. They have a club, and it is easy to join; you just accept their dogma. Part of it is given through the "World Council of Churches", and the other parts are in any church that allows it's doctrine to vary even the slightest into false teaching.
Remember, only the "sealed of God", in your mind will allow your escape from all of the Antichrist's deceptions.


revelation9

Good post...

Why would a Christian allow some slickster from some false pulpit blind them with non-Biblical promises or misrepresentations of Scripture that causes them to suppose that God would ready His Elect for battle, spiritual battle, and then retreat them before the battle begins? Answer: He wouldn't, our Lord God is not one to act idly in vain! God prepares one for battle to DO battle (spiritual battle). Don't let satan and his false Rapture doctrines disarm you. Remember, the Lord said "standagainst the wiles of the devil."{Eph 6:11}.He did not say to wait idly expecting to be pulled out (Raptured) before the battle even begins!

From theStrong's Exhaustive Concordance:Wiles:Greek word #3180 methodeia (meth-od-i'-ah); [method] travelling over, i.e. travesty (trickery): lie in wait. Cunning arts, deceit, craft, trickery."Now the serpent was more subtil..." {Gen 3:1}.
​

The above is but one Scripture of many that states that God's Elect shall stand against the deceptions of the antichrist. What about you, will you stand with the Gospel Armor on and in place? Or will Jesus return at His true Second Advent to find you serving the false messiah satan? We shall cover more of these Scriptural warnings and instructions as this study progresses.
Now the way that the Rapture teacher will try to invalidate all of the warnings of God is to say something like that God was only talking about the evil that is in the world now, and not about the evil of the Great Tribulation. This is deceiving and will cause good Christians to be effectively spiritually disarmed when the antichrist does come, as well as woefully ignorant about what they are supposed to do. But come on, are you to believe that God wouldn't mention standing against the greatest evil feat of satan (the Tribulation)?!? And are you to believe that Jesus Christ was only making small talk when He said:

Matt 24:21-25
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
​

Can you really read the above verse and yet still believe that God's Elect will not be on earth during the Great tribulation?!? Come-on Rapturist, snap out of it! By the way, above in verse 22, we see that the tribulation has been shortened by the grace of God. So the whole seven year, and three and a half year calculation that all Rapture theories are based upon is incorrect. If the Rapture false teacher doesn't even know how long the Tribulation is that they say you will be spared from, and they cannot even agree as to at what point it occurs, then how can you believe everything else they say about it!
They, the Rapture teachers, have built a doctrine (Rapture) not on the foundation that is Christ, but rather on a foundation of lies and false teaching. their foundation will fall when the satan's flood of lies are unleashed (the Great Tribulation):

Matt 7:27 (Jesus speaking)
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (KJV)
​

The second half of the Tribulation is shortened to five months in Rev 9:5 &9:10. They (the Rapture teachers) would know that except they teach that you don't have to understand the book of Revelation because "You will be gone, Raptured away before it comes to pass." Can't you see that you are being disarmed spiritually and set-up to fall and worship at the feet of satan as the impostor?
Source:
The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?

And
A Biblical chronology of end-time events
Here are the events of the last five months immediately prior to the Second Advent of Jesus Christ that will happen exactly as prophesied in God's Word. We will pick it up at the instructions from Jesus Christ to those who know the truth about the antichrist and are being persecuted during the final days by satan (antichrist) and the deceived ones who are doing his handy work Albeit, most of them, will be doing it in ignorance:

 

[keras]

Every human is made up of soul and flesh. Sometimes it is confusing if we are not clear which we are speaking of. According to scripture many souls are in heaven now, and in a conscious state, according to the following text. Or, am I missing something here?

We humans tend to focus on the rotten part of us, which is our flesh. This seems to be one of the greatest problems with those who think we will not go through persecution during the Rev. 12:12 tribulation.

Christ saves our immortal soul.

He did not save this rotten mass of flesh, that we think is so important.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
.

Yes, you are missing something, actually two things; the word heaven is missing, Rev 6:10 doesn't say where the altar is and those saints are not in a conscious state, parked as they under the altar. Their 'great cry' is a momentary break in their 'sleep'. They were killed on earth and they will be resurrected on earth, the assumption, if you must make one, is that they remain on earth.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, you are missing something, actually two things; the word heaven is missing, Rev 6:10 doesn't say where the altar is and those saints are not in a conscious state, parked as they under the altar. Their 'great cry' is a momentary break in their 'sleep'. They were killed on earth and they will be resurrected on earth, the assumption, if you must make one, is that they remain on earth.

If we use logic, the altar would be where the temple and the throne are at this point in the text. John is describing things and events that are in heaven and or on the earth, at some future point. The new heavens and the new earth will be brought to fruition when Christ returns and the New Jerusalem will come down on the new earth.

Rev_4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev_4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

If there is a momentary break in their sleep, they would be conscious at least for that time.

.

 

[miamited]

Hi Ted , the tribulation period is a total of seven years( Daniels 70th week). The wrath of God is the last 3 1/2 years. The rapture itself does not start the tribulation period. It starts with the signing of the peace accord with the antichrist. Dan 9:27. It is my belief that all believers will be raptured , however people will still be able to be saved during the 7 year tribulation .

Hi bibletruth,

Well, just so we're on the same page, here's the prophecy of the last seven of the 70 sevens:

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

What this says is that he - and I believe that to be the Antichrist - will confirm a covenant with many - most believe that to be Israel. In the middle of the seven year covenant, he - again speaking of the same one as earlier - will put an end to sacrifice and offering. He will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

So, I would merely ask you: Where do you see that God is going to step into the middle of this 'seven'? What I see is that when the Antichrist first establishes the covenant that it will carry on for 3.5 years and everyone will be happy and satisfied with the covenant. Very few people enter into a covenant that in the very terms and conditions of said covenant they are utterly dissatisfied in the beginning of said covenant. No, usually people enter into a covenant because they feel that what ever their part is or their gain is, is acceptable to them.

But in the middle of that covenant period the Antichrist is going to begin some sort of persecution of the people with whom he made the covenant that will apparently include forcing them to cease and desist in any sacrifices or offerings.

But, that isn't the end of what we are told of this seven year period. We are told that this will continue until the end that is decreed for him. The midpoint of the covenant as described here only says that he is going to end sacrifices and offerings, but by saying that this will continue 'until', certainly seems to tell me that this issue of the sacrifices and offerings will continue for a while. So, it seems fairly clear to me that there doesn't seem to be anything in this passage that would lead us to believe that God is going to step in in the middle of this covenant, but that sometime after the midpoint, and honestly we aren't given when this might be, that his end will come. The covenant is a seven year covenant, but this idea that God steps in at the midpoint isn't really clearly described, as I read the Scriptures. Neither is it clearly explained that at the end of the seven year covenant we will necessarily come to the end of this age. How do you read it?

All we can really say for sure of this covenant is that it will be a covenant which itself is set up to last for a seven year period. That is understood by our now knowing how the rest of the 69 'sevens' were measured. That somewhere about the midpoint of the covenant 'he' will put an end to sacrifices and offerings and 'on the wing of the temple he will set up the abomination that will bring desolation'. That this new order will continue until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted