Rapture Before Wrath

Danoh · Sep 26, 2014

TPeterY said:
Danoh,

Is this the video you're talking about? Just need to clarify this with you before commenting too much.

It's an excellent video. He teaches at a mature level expounding many of Paul's messages from watching a few of his videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LQTsjaDGF4

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Yep, that's the one... comment away, as I both know the man's teaching inside and out, as well as agree with it, given that I have come to see so much in the exact same way - just from lots and lots of fun times exploring things in a KJV.

In this, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, is so true - as Jordan also proves - the Bible is its own, built-in Dictionary, Encyclopedia, Almanac, Concordance, you name it!

"Preach THE WORD!"

iamlamad · Sep 26, 2014

Rev20 said:
That is funny. You are joking, right?

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Not at all! The rapture (of any kind, pre, mid, post) was a MYSTERY hidden in God until He chose to reveal it to Paul. Was Enoch being caught up a hint that one day many righteous would be caught up? I don't think so!

So when Paul began preaching the rapture doctrine, He was the ONLY ONE. Therefore if we wish to know about the rapture, we must read Paul, not some other writer.

LAMAD

iamlamad · Sep 26, 2014

BABerean2 said:
The posters of the Rapture Cult have spoken. They cannot let go of their doctrine. When the truth of their doctrine is spoken, we hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth. They are like the mythical vampires being exposed to sunlight. However, in this case their doctrine is being exposed to the Light of the Son.

They have resorted to linking belief in their doctrine to some aspect of a Christian's salvation.
This makes the doctrine a cult.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Those who read this forum should not take their word or my word on any matter of doctrine. The question should always be...

"Which doctrine is most clearly stated in God's Word?"

God is not the author of confusion.

We should all prepare to face the enemy, just as Stephen did.

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Why is it when someone does not agree with your theory, they are part of a cult? Can you provide proper exegesis of any scripture that proves your theory? You have been trying for months, unsuccessfully I might add.

Your theory tries to make the gathering in Matthew 24 Paul's rapture. Yet, no one has EVER been able to prove such a connection. Indeed, simple bible exegesis proves beyond any doubt that the gathering in Matthew 24 cannot possibly be the rapture of the church. The timing is wrong, and the gathering is wrong.

We will NOT let go of truth to swallow a LIE! The pretrib rapture is TRUTH. Jesus will come at a time of peace and safety - SUDDENLY and without warning - as a thief in the night - and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those alive and in Christ will rise. The moment after the rapture, the age of Grace [the church age] will be finished, and it will be the Day of the Lord.

It is a simple concept, based on Enoch's experience. It is written in perhaps 5th grade level English, so not hard to follow. It is astounding that people find it so hard to believe. When one gets into chapter 5, the writing is a little more difficult but still perhaps high school level. Paul shows us that at the rapture event, two groups of people get two different results. Of course those in Christ are raptured, but those left behind get "sudden destruction," the start of the Day of the Lord.

So what is "cultish" about this? It is SCRIPTURE. Now, what happens to those left behind? If they accept the mark of the Beast, nothing will happen to them except they will be DOOMED to the lake of fire. If people refuse the mark, and refuse to worship the image, they will be put to death. Again, what is difficult about this concept? it is clearly laid out in scripture. People will have TWO choices: accept the mark and live (for a while at least) or refuse the mark and die. As both Daniel and John wrote, you WILL be overcome.

This writer is confused. What does the term "salvation" mean? Most believers accept it to mean becoming born again, or born of the Spirit. Is there an absolute promise of heaven if one is born again? NO! For the bible speaks of names being blotted out of the book of life. We enter into salvation by an act of our own will. And those that refuse to be born again do it with an act of their will. By the same thing - an act of their will - a believer can CHOOSE to go to hell. So "salvation" is not a guarantee of heaven.

If a believer is LEFT BEHIND, say because God considers them to be "lukewarm," they will most certainly be given many choices to accept the mark of the Beast. If they do, they will never get to heaven. Does the truth make Christianity a cult? Definitely not. Always remember, for those left behind, life will be VERY DIFFICULT. It is very possible that some will give up and take the mark.

LAMAD

Manasseh_ · Sep 26, 2014

iamlamad said:
Why is it when someone does not agree with your theory, they are part of a cult? Can you provide proper exegesis of any scripture that proves your theory? You have been trying for months, unsuccessfully I might add.

LAMAD

you have it backwards, your doctrine is the THEORY since you have no explicit statement from scripture that Christ returns before tribulation,..........in this case of the false pretrib doctrine it's the poorest of theories since your whole doctrine is based soley on assumption, at least most theories are based on some fact..........you definitely can't even provide proper exegesis of any verses for your weak theory since you have no verses to begin with that contain any statement that Christ returns before tribulation to gather his saints .......................ex·e·ge·sis
critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.

as·sume
suppose to be the case, without proof.

.......since you have no proof from any verse you can't provide exegisis, you can only SUPPOSE (assume) that your theory is true

Bro in Christ · Sep 26, 2014

shturt678s said:
Little more specific, ie, had the right passage and idea.

Any person that has heard or seen enough truth in the essentials of the faith in the gospel message from heaven's view and doesn't have enough of an agape for that truth as appears fallacious to insane, then IIThess.2:11, 12 immediately comes to pass.

From this point on that person will believe whatever they want to believe.

Sorry, back to the topic,

Old Jack's opinion

This would be ignoring 2 for 4:3-6

iamlamad · Sep 27, 2014

Manasseh wrote;

Originally Posted by iamlamad

Why is it when someone does not agree with your theory, they are part of a cult? Can you provide proper exegesis of any scripture that proves your theory? You have been trying for months, unsuccessfully I might add.

LAMAD

you have it backwards, your doctrine is the THEORY since you have no explicit statement from scripture that Christ returns before tribulation,..........in this case of the false pretrib doctrine it's the poorest of theories since your whole doctrine is based soley on assumption, at least most theories are based on some fact..........you definitely can't even provide proper exegesis of any verses for your weak theory since you have no verses to begin with that contain any statement that Christ returns before tribulation to gather his saints .......................ex·e·ge·sis
critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.

as·sume
suppose to be the case, without proof.

.......since you have no proof from any verse you can't provide exegisis, you can only SUPPOSE (assume) that your theory is true

Did you just show up here without reading these 50 pages? OF COURSE there is proof of the pretrib rapture. You just don't believe it. That is not a problem on the side of pretrib, that is your problem. Try studying 1 Thes. chapter 5, where Paul shows us that his rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord......NOT THE day of the Lord, but the trigger for it......meaning the rapture comes FIRST, before the Day of the Lord. While the sinners gets the "sudden destruction," those worthy to be caught up get "salvation" or get raptured, and get to "live together with Him." (So shall they ever be with the Lord.)

This "sudden destruction" that begins the Day of the Lord is the great earthquake at the 6th seal, where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." And Paul wrote that God will set no appointment with His wrath.

Next, just notice that the great crowd too large to number, Rev. 7, is seen in heaven BEFORE the 70th week or "trib" ever starts.

Next, notice that the marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends to earth for the battle of Armageddon. Ask yourself, "how am I to get to the marriage and supper?" In YOUR theory, you won't.

LAMAD

shturt678s · Sep 27, 2014

shturt678s said:
Little more specific, ie, had the right passage and idea.

Any person that has heard or seen enough truth in the essentials of the faith in the gospel message from heaven's view and doesn't have enough of an agape for that truth as appears fallacious to insane, then IIThess.2:11, 12 immediately comes to pass.

From this point on that person will believe whatever they want to believe.

Sorry, back to the topic,

Old Jack's opinion

Let's take another look brother Bro in Christ, ie, your post "This would be ignoring 2 for 4:3-6." I've been ignorant most of my life, however ignoring IIThess.2:10b, ...for those perishing because they received not the agape of the truth that they be saved."

Not much ignoring going on here my brother.

Only old Jack's opinion

TPeterY · Sep 27, 2014

Danoh said:
Yep, that's the one... comment away, as I both know the man's teaching inside and out, as well as agree with it, given that I have come to see so much in the exact same way - just from lots and lots of fun times exploring things in a KJV.

He preaches true information. I recommend everyone watch the video a few times. Paul's teaching is key to success.

For everyone else reading this, every Christian can have some type of spiritual gift from the Holy Spirit. A person needs to develop a close relationship with God and be willing to do His will to help mentally strengthen the faith in body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 (NKJV)
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8) for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11) But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

https://www.cmalliance.org/about/beliefs/perspectives/spiritual-gifts

There's a step by step process where one must grow out of Carnal Knowledge through His testing taking each individual from Roman 1:11 to Roman 12:2 to and finally 1 Cor 2:12-14 to be able to receive His Spiritual Wisdom.

1) Romans 1:11 (NKJV)
For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established

2) Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

3) 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NKJV)
12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13) These things we also speak, not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For those studying prophecy, the gift of prophecy is crucial for true information. Without this gift, you're an easy prey for demonic deceptions from the devil through false carnal knowledge (like those off the internet) that can eventually cause you to fall from the faith. (I'm not referring to the faith as in John 3:16). You can't lose the salvation from John 3:16 once you accepted it, even if you changed religion. This faith is based on what Christ has done and it can never be lost.

However, Christians can lose their belief in Christ's coming for any number of reasons. This is the faith Christians are falling from. This faith is based on what you believe, it has nothing to do with Christ did on the cross so it's something that can be lost.....forever.

If you miss the rapture, you can't receive the rewards you've earned and worked for. This lost is forever.

If one truly believe Christ's return is soon, one would likely live their life as one of His 12 disciples during His first coming. And patiently awaiting His second return with anticipation.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Timothy 6:20 (NKJV)
O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge

The gift of prophecy is really just the Holy Spirit transmitting information about what you're reading and studying about prophecy from God. It's like a mentor helping you see and understand things you can't before on your own.

Without a deep relationship with God, your mind is still carnal. Work on the relationship and allow God to transform your thinking and understanding. Than he can explain many things you couldn't understand had your mind stay carnal.

His wisdom will guide you and keep you from the deceptions of the enemy. In these last days, the devil is working full time to prevent as many Christians as he can from being with Christ when He returns.

One problem I've noticed since joining CF, I see many people studying prophecy while their relationship with God is at a basic level. God is more of an acquaintance. Their mind is still carnal. For that, it's like trying to learn prophecy with the devil as their teacher, and God can't pass along wisdom to help them know the difference between what is true and what is false. God's voice will just go over their head. I know this because I was there before.

I can prove this. When He tells you to do something, will you be obedient and believe it's Him? If your conscience tells you to write a check for $100 to a stranger in need, will you do it? All the tests He gives you are the testing of your faith. And I also cut a check for $100 to someone I didn't know either.

Believe me, it's a lot more Him than me. I'm very much average, except my faith.

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Bro in Christ · Sep 27, 2014

shturt678s said:
Let's take another look brother Bro in Christ, ie, your post "This would be ignoring 2 for 4:3-6." I've been ignorant most of my life, however ignoring IIThess.2:10b, ...for those perishing because they received not the agape of the truth that they be saved."

Not much ignoring going on here my brother.

Only old Jack's opinion

Combine them you'll have something

Rev20 · Sep 27, 2014

TPeterY said:
For those studying prophecy, the gift of prophecy is crucial for true information. Without this gift, you're an easy prey for demonic deceptions from the devil through false carnal knowledge . . .

Amen to that.
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TPeterY said:
If you miss the rapture, you can't receive the rewards you've earned and worked for. This lost is forever.

What makes you think there is a future rapture? Isn't that a modern invention? The orthodoxy has taught for over 1600 years that the millennium began at the resurrection of Christ.

"The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millennarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion." [Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church, Volume II: Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1914, p.614]

"After the time of Constantine, chiliasm [millennarianism ] was more and more widely regarded as a heresy, and received its worst blow from Augustine, who framed in its stead the doctrine, which from his time on was commonly accepted in the Church, that the millennium is the present reign of Christ, which began with his resurrection. See Schaff's Church History, II. p. 613 sq., for the history of the doctrine in the ante-Nicene Church and for the literature of the subject." [Philip Schaff, Eusebius, Church History, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 2 Vol 01." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1904, Book III.39, p.172, fn.19]

"The Jewish chiliasm rested on a carnal misapprehension of the Messianic kingdom, a literal interpretation of prophetic figures, and an overestimate of the importance of the Jewish people and the holy city as the centre of that kingdom. It was developed shortly before and after Christ in the apocalyptic literature, as the Book of Enoch, the Apocalypse of Baruch, 4th Esdras, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, and the Sibylline Books. It was adopted by the heretical sect of the Ebionites, and the Gnostic Cerinthus . . . The Christian chiliasm [millenarianism] is the Jewish chiliasm spiritualized and fixed upon the second, instead of the first, coming of Christ. It distinguishes, moreover, two resurrections, one before and another after the millennium, and makes the millennial reign of Christ only a prelude to his eternal reign in heaven, from which it is separated by a short interregnum of Satan. The millennium is expected to come not as the legitimate result of a historical process but as a sudden supernatural revelation . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers Barnabas is the first and the only one who expressly teaches a pre-millennial reign of Christ on earth." [Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church, Volume II: Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1914, pp.614-615]

The Nicene Creed makes this statement (from the Nicene Creed, AD325, with later council additions):

"… and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he cometh again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end." [Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church, Vol. III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1906, p.669]

This is a link to Schaff's Church History Vols. II & III:
https://archive.org/details/historyofchris02scha
https://archive.org/details/historyofchristi03schauoft

The scripture says Christ came for his elect (the remnant of Israel) in his own generation (Matt 24:30-34). The rest of us will be judged at the final judgement, which occurs after the millennium and after Satan is defeated:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." -- Rev 20:5

TPeterY said:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Shouldn't we be looking for new, modern doctrines, that have spread rapidly, since Satan deceives the entire world and makes war on the Church throughout the breadth of the earth?

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." -- Rev 20:9

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TPeterY said:
The gift of prophecy is really just the Holy Spirit transmitting information about what you're reading and studying about prophecy from God. It's like a mentor helping you see and understand things you can't before on your own.

The oracles of God (the gift of prophecy) went only to the children of Israel. That may explain why every book in the bible is written by an Israelite:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." -- Rom 3:1-2

By the way, in the first century all the children of Israel were called Jews since they re-gathered under Judah after their return from Babylon:

"Then shalt thou say to them, Thus saith the Lord; behold, I will take the tribe of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel that belong to him, and I will add them to the tribe of Juda, and they shall become one rod in the hand of Juda." -- Eze 37:19 LXX

The book of Ezra explains the decree of Cyrus that offered a return to the land to all of God's people.
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TPeterY said:
Without a deep relationship with God, your mind is still carnal. Work on the relationship and allow God to transform your thinking and understanding. Than he can explain many things you couldn't understand had your mind stay carnal.

No doubt about that.
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TPeterY said:
His wisdom will guide you and keep you from the deceptions of the enemy. In these last days, the devil is working full time to prevent as many Christians as he can from being with Christ when He returns.

The devil is the great deceiver.

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Manasseh_ · Sep 27, 2014

iamlamad said:
Did you just show up here without reading these 50 pages? OF COURSE there is proof of the pretrib rapture. You just don't believe it. That is not a problem on the side of pretrib, that is your problem. Try studying 1 Thes. chapter 5, where Paul shows us that his rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord......NOT THE day of the Lord, but the trigger for it......meaning the rapture comes FIRST, before the Day of the Lord. While the sinners gets the "sudden destruction," those worthy to be caught up get "salvation" or get raptured, and get to "live together with Him." (So shall they ever be with the Lord.)

This "sudden destruction" that begins the Day of the Lord is the great earthquake at the 6th seal, where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." And Paul wrote that God will set no appointment with His wrath.

Next, just notice that the great crowd too large to number, Rev. 7, is seen in heaven BEFORE the 70th week or "trib" ever starts.

Next, notice that the marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends to earth for the battle of Armageddon. Ask yourself, "how am I to get to the marriage and supper?" In YOUR theory, you won't.

LAMAD

this is all too simple, IF you had an explicit statement from scripture for your first premise then you'd be posting it........peat and repeat , everything you're making reference to in this response is once again based on your first assumption, you can't prove there are little green men on Mars but you're happy to discuss what they wear, ie, you can't prove point A but you still go on to points b,c,d ,etc as if point A is truth.......it's called begging the question.......................you can harp all you want that there is proof that Christ returns before tribulation but you certainly are unable to prove your first assumption with ONE SINGLE verse from scripture, without all your rhetoric just post the one verse that says Christ returns before tribulation to gather his saints ?

Danoh · Sep 27, 2014

TPeterY, Jordan is Cessationist in his understanding of the gifts. And he is, as a result of his overall frame of reference.

Meaning, a person studies things out inductively [gathering together, and objectively examining all pertinate information], arrives at an overall premise or frame of reference, they then deduce other things from.

From there, if some aspect of the premise is off, so will be what is deduced from it, as it will tend to read said premise, or frame of reference into things [which is fine when the frame of reference is sound, as well as continually examined, and reexamined].

For example, you read your frame of reference as to "the gifts" - that they are still in operation - into the passages you cited.

The way that works is that your frame of reference caused to arise up from your memory those passages your time in Scripture formed in your memory. Passagrs that your particular frame of reference then deduced affirm said frame of reference.

Many believers engage this very same process unaware they are doing so, and then, because "it feels/sounds right," etc., they conclude "the Spirit led me to this..."

I was raised Pentecostal til I was about seventeen years of age. And being as observant as I am, I was able to observe these natural processes misunderstood, deduced,or taken as "the Spirit's leading."

Take for example, your above stated understanding of Romans 1:11's "spiritual gift."

Paul's sense is related there by him as a "spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established. That is, THAT I may be comforted together WITH YOU BY the MUTUAL FAITH both of you and of me."

He goes on from there to describe this spiritual gift as "the gospel of Christ," that he is ready to preach to them also, but which he has been thus far hindered from doing.

So what he does is, he writes Romans to them towards his stated intention of establishing them in the doctrines particular to THE mutual faith.

They're already saved, so that's not the aspect of the gospel of Christ alone that he has in mind by which they might be established.

So what is it? Its that 1 Cor. 2's "spiritual gift" that Paul there asserts was communicated unto his spirit by the Spirit of God, and that Paul had been "unable to speak unto" the Corinthians about "as unto spiritual," 1 Cor. 3:1.

What is this "spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established" in? It is the Mystery that Paul preached, Romans 16:

25. Now to him that is of power TO STABLISH YOU ACCORDING TO MY gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26. But now is made manifest...

Colossians 1
25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation [stewardship] of God which is given unto me to you, to fulfil [fill full] the word of God;
26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest unto his saints:
27. To whom God would make known what is THE RICHES OF the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which [riches] is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28. Whom we preach, warning every man, and TEACHING every man in ALL wisdom: [to the intent] that we may present EVERY man PERFECT IN Christ Jesus:
29. Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightly.

THAT is the "spiritual gift" that Paul has in mind in Romans 1:11.

The tricky thing about these issues is how easily we can fall prey to deducing about them what we do from a frame of reference or premise that only appears sound to us only due to said frame of reference, and thus, from what it has failed to consider before allowing it to be one's frame of reference.

Paul's gospel was two-fold, for example: salvation via his gospel of the grace of God, Acts 20:24, BUT ALSO, establishment in what said gospel God is saving men UNTO - the Mystery: that all might one day be presented unto Him "perfect," or mature as to both our understanding of the Mystery, but also as to our having built into the details of our lives this Mystery's particular truths, that when we come to the Judgment Seat of Christ, what we did in our body here will have been based on this Mystery, Col. 2:6,7; 1 Cor. 3; 2 Cor. 5:10.

Anyway, hope that's the food for thought to you, that I am sure will be the food for gainsaying of others, given how frames of reference can distort perspective

Danoh · Sep 28, 2014

Ever wonder why, if "the Spirit is leading," Believers nevertheless so often end up at differing conclusions?

1 Cor. 2 does NOT teach that the lost can NOT understand Scripture, rather, that they cannot when they view its assertions as "foolishness unto them."

As Romans 10: 13-16 actually asserts, summarized in verse 17 as "SO THEN [the opportunity to excercise] faith cometh by [the opportunity of] hearing, and [the opportunity for] hearing cometh by the word of God [having been preached towards that].

Read those passages. That is what Paul asserts there.

Case in point: once, while discussing issues of faith with a Roman Catholic, I decided to test the above.

So, without any discussion as to their Eternal Virgin doctrine, I had him turn to Matthew 1:26's "And knew her not til she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

I then asked him what he thought "knew" was referring to in that passage.

"Well, you know," he replied, like when people first meet and don't know each other that well.

I then related that, as with any book, the Bible contains its own, built in Dictionary, by how it uses similar words within similar contexts.

I then had him read Gen. 4:1's "And Adam knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain..."

I then asked him what that passage meant by, "knew."

He replied, "You know, its like that saying, 'you don't know someone until you've slept with them' - they were sexually intimate."

I then had him read verse 17's "And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch..."

Again, he shared the same sexual intimacy understanding about the passage.

Then I added verse 25's "And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth..."

At which point, I asked him once more what the word "knew" meant, by how it was used there.

At this point he exclaimed, "you're not understanding this; are you - it means they had sex!"

I then had him reread Matthew 1:26.

As he did, this time his face turned beat red, he slanmed the Bible shut, and exclaimed - "that's, that's that's - a Protestant Bible! - You're, you're saying that the Blessed Virgin did not remain uh - uh virgin!"

'No,' I replied, 'we used YOUR Bible, AND THAT'S what YOU related THOSE PASSAGES told you...'

"Well, you've got your religion, and I've got mine," he replied, "let's change the subject..."

He understood the passages, but their witness was taken by him as foolishness; so he rejected "knowing" their witness.

"The things of God" ARE "spiritually discerned" through His Spirit's WRITTEN Words - said Words, are spiritual, in that He is a spirit. In fact The Spirit.

He commuunicates to our spirit information about His spiritual things through His WRITTEN Words.

He pairs together information about the things of God with His spiritual Words together with our spirit, that we might know the things of God, just as I, by my words here, am communicating my spirit's mind on these things to your spirit.

Problem is, we have erroneous information about how these things work handed down to us through the speech and writings of others they were erroneously handed down to by those in error on this before them, and so on.

And because we don't pause and ask, 'is that how this really works; let me study it out IN THE WORD,' we just take such errors as "sound."

As a result, when we say "the Spirit led me," what we are actually asserting, unknowingly is, "well, what this means to me is..."

Thus, its ONLY "cure" - the question, "Nevertheless, what saith THE SCRIPTURE?"

Riberra · Sep 28, 2014

iamlamad said:
Your theory tries to make the gathering in Matthew 24 Paul's rapture. Yet, no one has EVER been able to prove such a connection. Indeed, simple bible exegesis proves beyond any doubt that the gathering in Matthew 24 cannot possibly be the rapture of the church. The timing is wrong, and the gathering is wrong.

We will NOT let go of truth to swallow a LIE! The pretrib rapture is TRUTH. Jesus will come at a time of peace and safety - SUDDENLY and without warning - as a thief in the night - and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those alive and in Christ will rise. The moment after the rapture, the age of Grace [the church age] will be finished, and it will be the Day of the Lord.

LAMAD

Lamad,you effectively get the wrong timing about when Jesus will come as a thief.
The Bible prove you wrong again.
Revelation 16:15 is when Jesus come as a thief and that will not be during a time of peace and safety...
Revelation 16:12-16

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

*Note that i am not saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering of those alive and in Christ to meet them with Jesus in the air have happened yet (per Rev 16:12-16 )... but the timing is close...

Revelation 16 KJV

BABerean2 · Sep 28, 2014

Riberra said:
Lamad,you effectively get the wrong timing about when Jesus will come as a thief.
The Bible prove you wrong again.
Revelation 16:15 is when Jesus come as a thief and that will not be during a time of peace and safety...
Revelation 16:12-16

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

*Note that i am not saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering of those alive and in Christ to meet them with Jesus in the air have happened yet (per Rev 16:12-16 )... but the timing is close...

Revelation 16 KJV

Great Post, Brother.

Pretrib only works by ignoring, changing, or taking scripture out of context.

The phrase "thief in the night" is also used in 2nd Peter chapter 3, which is clearly a Second Coming passage.

1Th_5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Danoh · Sep 28, 2014

Sure it does, BAB, as many do with Romans 11:25

http://www.christianforums.com/t7844208/

Bro in Christ · Sep 28, 2014

BABerean2 said:
Great Post, Brother.

Pretrib only works by ignoring, changing, or taking scripture out of context.

The phrase "thief in the night" is also used in 2nd Peter chapter 3, which is clearly a Second Coming passage.

1Th_5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Day of the lord is. 1007 year long
How you might say rapture in 1 thee 4:13-18 then Daniel 70th week witch is 7 yrs long the the 1000 yr Christ ruling as king

TPeterY · Sep 28, 2014

Rev20 said:
What makes you think there is a future rapture? Isn't that a modern invention? The orthodoxy has taught for over 1600 years that the millennium began at the resurrection of Christ.

The scripture says Christ came for his elect (the remnant of Israel) in his own generation (Matt 24:30-34). The rest of us will be judged at the final judgement, which occurs after the millennium and after Satan is defeated:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." -- Rev 20:5

You're on the right track but that's not the same generation Christ was referring to. First note, a generation in the bible can have two meanings. 1) It can refers to a group, 2) It also implies a length in time.

A generation in the bible is 70 years. Christ's usage of the word generation often refers to a length in time, not always people.

Psalm 90:10 (NKJV)
The days of our lives are seventy years;
And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow;
For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

The generation He referred to in His own time is in Matthew 23:36, not Matthew 24:34.

Matthew 23:36-24:2 (KJV)
36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt+23%3A36-24%3A2&version=KJV

If you read all of Matthew 23:1 to 35, you can see Christ condemned the Pharisees and closed out His testimony in verse 36 prophesying their destruction in 70 AD (anno domini - this generation). It's 70 years from the end of the 69th week of Daniel's prophecy from the time the Messiah is revealed (Christ's first coming).

Jerusalem was destroyed at exactly 70 AD, a generation (70 years) as Christ prophesied it's destruction in Matthew 23:36.

Christ also prophesied His Second Coming will also be a generation in Matthew 24:34. We know this because His disciples asked Him the signs of His coming in Matthew 24:3. The generation in Matthew 24:34 represent His second coming. The generation in Matthew 23:36 was revealed before His disciples asked about the second coming.

I don't think many people realized this but in the same manner in reverse order, Christ's second coming to earth will be a generation from the establishment of the fig tree plus 7 years for the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week. Just as 70 years at the end of Daniel's 69th week marked the end and destruction of Israel, a generation after the budding of the fig tree will commence Daniel's 70th week. This is also confirmed in Jeremiah 25.

Psot #50 http://www.christianforums.com/t7839441-5/#post66258713

This guy's on the right track with a generation but I don't think he knows about Jeremiah 25. He also view the fig tree as the generation, not a group of people.

World Bible Society President Says Jesus Returning Between 2018 and 2028

Bible Scholar Predicts New Date of Christ's Second Coming

.

Rev20 said:
Shouldn't we be looking for new, modern doctrines, that have spread rapidly, since Satan deceives the entire world and makes war on the Church throughout the breadth of the earth?

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." -- Rev 20:9

That's a yes and no answer.

Yes, when we get there at the end of the millennium.

No, because Rev 20:9 and the release of Satan is in the future even to those that are amillennialist.

.

TPeterY · Sep 28, 2014

Riberra said:
Revelation 16:15 is when Jesus come as a thief and that will not be during a time of peace and safety...
Revelation 16:12-16

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

*Note that i am not saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering of those alive and in Christ to meet them with Jesus in the air have happened yet (per Rev 16:12-16 )... but the timing is close...

Revelation 16 KJV

How can we be close to the rapture if you think it'll happen at Rev 16:12-16?

We're not even in the tribulation yet and Rev 16 is just before the start of Armageddon.

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TPeterY · Sep 28, 2014

BABerean2 said:
Great Post, Brother.

Pretrib only works by ignoring, changing, or taking scripture out of context.

The phrase "thief in the night" is also used in 2nd Peter chapter 3, which is clearly a Second Coming passage.

1Th_5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You might want to read about who Peter was addressing and referring to in 2 Peter 3:10.

And also know he was talking to them about the second coming, not the rapture. Christ will come upon all as a thief who doesn't believe in the rapture OR the second coming.

Rapture cultists strikes again.

EDIT: Actually, wanna know why Rev 16:15 is thrown in there as Christ coming as a thief in the night right before Armageddon?

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