Rapture Before Wrath

Bibletruth469

Yes, "rapture" just before the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and wrath upon an unbelieving world of humans .... His vengeance will last for 2550 days and then He will appear upon the earth

His purpose will be to pressure a returned remnant of Israel now in the land] for turning to Him as Messiah and King, and to punish the nations for their unbelief

TPeterY said:

You're just making things up and can't accept the fact you're wrong.

~ That verse is part of the Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse and it's all about prophecy. Luke 17:20-37.

~ Read this below. Jesus and His disciples already knew His second coming isn't in there lifetime. Peter is warning them the end is at least a thousand year away.....and for a good reason.

2 Peter 3:1-9 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Jesus Will Come Again
3 My friends, this is the second letter I have written to you. I wrote both letters to you to help your honest minds remember something. 2 I want you to remember the words that the holy prophets spoke in the past. And remember the command that our Lord and Savior gave us. He gave us that command through your apostles.

3 It is important for you to understand what will happen in the last days. People will laugh at you. They will live following the evil they want to do. 4 They will say, “Jesus promised to come again. Where is he? Our fathers have died, but the world continues the way it has been since it was made.”

5 But these people don’t want to remember what happened long ago. The skies were there, and God made the earth from water and with water. All this happened by God’s word. 6 Then the world was flooded and destroyed with water. 7 And that same word of God is keeping the skies and the earth that we have now. They are being kept to be destroyed by fire. They are kept for the day of judgment and the destruction of all people who are against God.

8 But don’t forget this one thing, dear friends: To the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+peter+3%3A1-9&version=ERV





You mean like how you've been promoting this website http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm#2
since you first came to this forum that preaches no such thing as the rapture or the catching away etc, and the second half of the tribulation is shorten to 5 months? LOL!!!

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From the Olivet discourse
Matthew 24:22
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"5 months" is very short for the second half of the Great Tribulation.That is the time allowed to Satan who through the Antichrist and his minions will begin to overcome Christ Believers worldwide. That is why as pointed out in Revelation 12:12 Satan is filled with fury because he knows that his time is short.
Revelation 12:12
... the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

TPeterY said:

It's amazing that you actually accept this type of teaching over what the bible said. That website of yours is just ignoring 1 Thess 4:16-17.

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They are not ignoring it.See below...

TPeterY said:

And these are some of the comments taken from your website. http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm#2

* "There shall be no 'Rapture'. The word Rapture does not even appear in any Bible version (to date). The Rapture is a lie strait from satan's camp to disarm the Christian and cause him/her to willingly lay down their Gospel Armor. Let's examine Ephesians 6:10-18 where we are told about the Gospel Armor:"

* "They, the Rapture teachers, have built a doctrine (Rapture) not on the foundation that is Christ, but rather on a foundation of lies and false teaching. their foundation will fall when the satan's flood of lies are unleashed (the Great Tribulation):"

This website is promoting the rapture to be satanic, and you appearantly suppport this with this thread you started on this forum when you first joined. http://www.christianforums.com/t7823138/

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You still don't get it .Satan as no power to do a Rapture.The point that you are missing about the DECEPTION is that the Caught up /Gathering in the clouds will not happen pre-tribulation, nor mid-tribulation, nor pre-wrath... but only at Jesus Second Coming at the End of the Great Tribulation.

TPeterY said:

Now tell me this Riberra. Where is your credibility about the bible? Most people here believes in 1 Thess 4:16-17 because it's written in the bible.

Why should we take your word over the bible?

"Just need to disclose this for the new people that recently joined this forum."

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1 Thess 4:16-17 is discussed in the website linked below.It will happen at Jesus Second Coming at the END of the Great Tribulation NOT Pre-Trib.

TPeterY said:

Why should we take your word over the bible?

"Just need to disclose this for the new people that recently joined this forum."

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Every one can verify everything by themselves
They will know the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture theory DOCTRINE and also
What Does God's Word Say About It?
Link:
The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?

God's Word confirms it .... no question about this

Many scriptures taken together make the case and the event will happen just before He brings His wrath and vengeance upon an unbelieving world

Daniel1136 said:

God's Word confirms it .... no question about this

Many scriptures taken together make the case and the event will happen just before He brings His wrath and vengeance upon an unbelieving world

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You should take a look at this link if you think that the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is scriptural:

The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?

I have looked at much over the last 40 years, and there are many different ideas which are usually attached to various doctrinal religious organizations

I see this event as being totally scriptural with no legitimate and comprehensive rebuttal

There is a reason why this subject is so controversial, most likely number 1

And I have to say that the opposition to the event is suspect

I would say that your source above is on the wrong road for many reasons

And I have no interest in making argumentation over it

We will know soon enough

Daniel1136 said:

I have looked at much over the last 40 years, and there are many different ideas which are usually attached to various doctrinal religious organizations

I see this event as being totally scriptural with no legitimate and comprehensive rebuttal

There is a reason why this subject is so controversial, most likely number 1

And I have to say that the opposition to the event is suspect

I would say that your source above is on the wrong road for many reasons

And I have no interest in making argumentation over it

We will know soon enough

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The following article uses sources that can be confirmed in the libraries of prominent seminaries to show the true origin of the pretrib doctrine.

Many on this forum sound like vampires exposed to sunlight, when exposed to the truth about how the doctrine began. Sadly, many of them would rather keep the truth hidden from those who sit in the pews of our evangelical churches.

We are prone to hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth each time it is posted.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


.

The Lord will immortalize the dead and those living at the moment just before the tribulation begins [the evidence is already recorded, you can find the evidence of the church dwelling in heaven during the tribulation period as Revelation unfolds .... do you need the verses?

He will come as a thief for both events one right after another, the believer living at the time will be expecting His call, the unbelieving world will not be expecting His tribulation which will then suddenly begin with no warning

Both the pre-wrath and post positions are wrong .... these were force-hatched ideas to fit various denominational persuasions .... and of course the full preterist view has no "rapture" in it

If you need help with any part of your view which is correct just ask

The danger of refuting this truth is the trapping of those who reject the Lord's promise into the tribulation period .... this Satan likes because he can then hunt them down and kill them before they can repent .... he will be on the earth during the period

Here is the Lord's divide [Revelation 3:10 and Revelation 3:15-19]

A professing Christian is either one, or the other

And here is another example of the divide [Matthew 25:1-13]

Those that do become believers during the tribulation will be rare and most of these will be martyred for their faith .... and most will be of Israel

The Gentiles of the nations will not fair so well

Billions of humans will be killed by the wiles of the tribulation in one way or another

.... and most of these will be lost forever

Stick to your view and do not let anyone convince you otherwise

bibletruth469 said:

Yes. Do you believe that the rapture will happen before the 7 year tribulation begins? Or do you, as some on this thread, believe that it will happen before the bowl judgements ( the pre wrath theory)? I personally do not believe that pre wrath rapture theory holds up when searched out in the scripture .

Then at the second coming of Christ, at the end of the tribulation ( not the rapture) , Christ will appear to judge the nations. Notice in 1 thess 4:16-18 , we are caught up. Christ does not appear to the earth at the rapture like He will appear at the second coming.

Yes, I also believe that the whole point if the tribulation period is to draw Israel to their true Messiah , Jesus Christ. One who rejects this ultimate truth will be deceived and believe the lie and will follow after the beast( antichrist).

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To draw spiritual Israel to their Messiah.

Old Jack's opinion

bibletruth469 said:

There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period. First of all, let's look at Titus 2:13. It states, " Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and savior Jesus Christ". We Christian believers are not looking for wrath, .

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God's wrath is not poured out on the saints any more than the flood was directed against Noah - but Noah went through the flood and the saints will pass through the tribulation.

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation ... He will gather His elect" Matt 24.

in Christ,

Bob

Daniel1136 said:

I have looked at much over the last 40 years, and there are many different ideas which are usually attached to various doctrinal religious organizations

I see this event as being totally scriptural with no legitimate and comprehensive rebuttal

There is a reason why this subject is so controversial, most likely number 1

And I have to say that the opposition to the event is suspect

I would say that your source above is on the wrong road for many reasons

And I have no interest in making argumentation over it

We will know soon enough

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Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This is after the tribulation of the deception, after the Antichrist ruled and claimed himself to be God, and after all the events of the first six seals are over; Then Jesus Christ, the Son of man will come to earth in the clouds of heaven, which are all those souls that have lived, died and gone to be with the Lord. Then the true Christ, the true Messiah, who is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, will come and claim His own, and not one moment before.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God. Are you one of God's elect? Are you going to be in the field working for God, or wandering after the fake Christ?

The whole world will believe satan to be Christ,that's the deception that Christ warned against.....

If you are not sealed,you shall believe the lie....

Why would one need to be sealed if they were going to be raptured before said events???

Originally Posted by bibletruth469

There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period. First of all, let's look at Titus 2:13. It states, " Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and savior Jesus Christ". We Christian believers are not looking for wrath, .
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Why do you all make the wrath and the trib the same?All throughout scripture,we go through tribulations,that's a given

Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

The end is not the trib,the end is His return(wrath)..........Until you all learn the difference you won't get it right

One could be standing in the middle of a million people,that will deserve His wrath,and not a hair on your head will be harmed....

Satan will never claim to be Jesus Christ, neither will his beast .... He will blaspheme Jesus Christ and those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation period .... guess who

And only the 144000 mortals of the 12 tribes of Israel will be sealed for protection against the wiles of the tribulation, these are not the "church"

I am sealed already with the Lord's holy spirit and will be dwelling in heaven during the tribulation period

The gathering by the angels that you speak of will be of the mortal elect of Israel who will survive the tribulation period .... this gathering is not a resurrection of anyone [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... Matthew 24 is all about Israel during the tribulation, not the church

And there is no resurrection of anyone associated with the 7th trumpet judgement in Revelation .... this trumpet is only associated with the Lord's judgment of Satan's beast and his human followers at Armageddon

The next trumpet is the "great trumpet" that will sound just after the days of the tribulation as described above

There will be one resurrection to eternal life just before the tribulation begins and one just after for the martyrs of the tribulation and the Lord's two prophets

There are no others. so you have only two possibilities and I would suggest the first for you .... your choioce

The next and final resurrection will be the one to the second death just after the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth

Daniel1136 said:

Satan will never claim to be Jesus Christ, neither will his beast .... He will blaspheme Jesus Christ and those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation period .... guess who

And only the 144000 mortals of the 12 tribes of Israel will be sealed for protection against the wiles of the tribulation, these are not the "church"

I am sealed already with the Lord's holy spirit and will be dwelling in heaven during the tribulation period

The gathering by the angels that you speak of will be of the mortal elect of Israel who will survive the tribulation period .... this gathering is not a resurrection of anyone [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... Matthew 24 is all about Israel during the tribulation, not the church

And there is no resurrection of anyone associated with the 7th trumpet judgement in Revelation .... this trumpet is only associated with the Lord's judgment of Satan's beast and his human followers at Armageddon

The next trumpet is the "great trumpet" that will sound just after the days of the tribulation as described above

There will be one resurrection to eternal life just before the tribulation begins and one just after for the martyrs of the tribulation and the Lord's two prophets

There are no others. so you have only two possibilities and I would suggest the first for you .... your choioce

The next and final resurrection will be the one to the second death just after the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth

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Where in all of scripture is the rapture before the tribulation?,Do show........


Your first mistake is seperating Israel from the Church,Israel is and has always been the Church...

Second mistake is not understanding satans purpose

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.
Does the "rapture theory" still look inviting to you? If it does, friend, your in a heap of trouble. This is not me talking, but Paul; for he is warning you to be watching out for the Antichrist, for he is a copy of exactly what you expect of Christ. The Antichrist [Satan] will have supernatural powers, and he will come first, before our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are given the exact time of the Antichrist's arrival upon the earth in Revelation 9:1. It is at the sounding of the FIFTH TRUMPET. The trumpets are sounded in order, and the fifth trumpet is prior to the seventh. It can't be that hard to understand. Satan will be God to all the people of the world, including all Christians who do NOT have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads], to know the truth. The fall is because they will not take the simplicity and understanding in which Christ taught.

The whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.

Daniel 8:23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and under standing dark sentences, shall stand up."

Why were we told by Jesus and Paul to put on the "gospel armor"? We were told that "we do not war against the power of the arm, but against the power of dark sentences". Our fight is against the "king of fierce countenances"; and friend, that king is Satan, the Antichrist. It may be next week, next month, or next year, but you will face him in battle.

If you lose that battle, which is for your soul, you will be disposed of as he will. This next war is a spiritual war, to be fought with weapons of words, half-truths, concepts and precepts. If all you know is John 3:16, and the rapture theory, then your in trouble. If your in God's Word and understand how Satan and his offspring, the Kenites, work, and use those "dark sentences" to trick you, you will be okay. They are not to be feared, but understood. That armour that we are to use is the Word of God, and the "gospel armor" is spelled out in Ephesians 6:10-20.

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

This king is Satan, and he will "destroy", which means "deceive" many. How will this deception come? "Wonderfully", which is even deceiving. Strong's Hebrew dictionary # 6381; "Pala; a prime root; distinguished, great, marvelous, miracles, wonderfully." Friend that is how Satan, the Antichrist will come to earth. Satan will have his bag of tricks, and supply your every need, and all he expects from you is your worship, and your soul.

Though Satan's power will be mighty, he gets his power through the craftiness of the "One World" governmental system. This is nothing new, for even my grandchildren in the grade school years are taught to respect this filthy system, and all its attributes of ungodliness.

If you bow to this new system when the Antichrist is sitting at the top, you will probably prosper, as long as you continue to do it the new religious order's way. It will be the political beast arriving first; and this system is here and in control now. This political system of "one worldism" will fall, for Revelation 13:3 tells us; "And I saw one of the heads [of the beast] as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." When a governmental system receives a mortal wound, it no longer exists as an operating political system.
The political beast will and has arrived first, and it will fall, Then Satan will come to earth with his fallen angels, and revive this beast, only then it will be the religious part of the beast that will be in power. It is religious because Satan is portrayed as the True Christ. "It shall come to pass!"

Most religious leaders of today are part of this new order now being set up. Daniel is an overlay of the Book of Revelation. As Daniel and John wrote, their vision fit like a perfect glove. As time passes, God's people will not gain their freedoms back, for it is written as such. You are going to be bound and limited more and more, as God, and our Lord Jesus Christ will be removed from all forms of our lived.

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

The policy of an organization or government sets the limits of the operation of that body. Nothing is allowed to occur outside the policy. Satan's policy is to promise you whatever your price is to worship him. To most Christians today the price is so low and cheep that it simply doesn't exist. Why? Because the Kenites and their religious leaders will lead them right into Satan's camp. It may be with a government wage, a pension, or some are low enough to sell out for a medical plan. Have you given any thought as to what your price of selling your soul will be worth. If you are not sealed in your mind at the arrival of the Antichrist, you will sell out. because God's Word says that you will sell out.

Remember, you will not see our Lord Jesus Christ in your physical body, as Paul records in his book I Corinthians 15:50-52; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

"The last trump" is the seventh trumpet, and that follows the fifth trumpet when the Antichrist arrives. Friends, the first four trumpets are with us today, and most Christians have no idea what they even are. When the seventh trumpet sounds, "all flesh" will be changed into their spiritual bodies, and the "Kingdom of God, our Lord Jesus Christ" will be on earth. This change is instant, thus there will be no time to worship any Christ in your flesh body. You must keep this in your mind, or you will worship Satan.

The magnification of Satan in his own heart is what we call pride. It is this pride that caused his fall in that first earth age, and his pride will convince him that he is God, as he commits the abominations of Daniel 9:27, and Matthew 24:15. This is when Satan stands in the temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be God.

When Satan commits this abominable act, it will be the "prince of princes" who will destroy Satan, and not any man. This act will sound the seventh trumpet, and Jesus Christ will return to earth to end the Antichrist's reign. Revelation 19:19-20 describes for us how Satan and his army, and those who bowed to worship the image [Satan] are destroyed.

BobRyan said:

God's wrath is not poured out on the saints any more than the flood was directed against Noah - but Noah went through the flood and the saints will pass through the tribulation.

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation ... He will gather His elect" Matt 24.

in Christ,

Bob

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Ones that Got saved during His wrath ... romans 11:25-26

yet we are not under any wrath... 1 thes 1:10, 1 thes 5:9

Bro in Christ said:

Ones that Got saved during His wrath ... romans 11:25-26

yet we are not under any wrath... 1 thes 1:10, 1 thes 5:9

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He will visibly "appear" to be seen by all at the time of our gathering to him.


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Col_3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe_5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1Jn_2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

He will pour out his wrath on unbelievers after he gathers us.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Daniel1136 said in post 309:

Here is the Lord's divide [Revelation 3:10 and Revelation 3:15-19]

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Note that the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Daniel1136 said in post 309:

A professing Christian is either one, or the other

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Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation, and by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Daniel1136 said in post 309:

And here is another example of the divide [Matthew 25:1-13]

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Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

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Daniel1136 said in post 314:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel during the tribulation, not the church

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Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Riberra said:

From the Olivet discourse
Matthew 24:22
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"5 months" is very short for the second half of the Great Tribulation.That is the time allowed to Satan who through the Antichrist and his minions will begin to overcome Christ Believers worldwide. That is why as pointed out in Revelation 12:12 Satan is filled with fury because he knows that his time is short.
Revelation 12:12
... the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

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Riberra,

The days for the elect has already been determined to a time and times and half a time. (Rev 12:14)

Look at Matthew 24:22 from multiple translations. Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no - Online Bible Study Tools

It means that if the tribulation were any longer than a total of 7 years, such as 10, 15 or 20 years, everybody on earth including the 144,000 would be dead. No one alive at all.

Saving the 144,000 in time is the main reason on the timing of Christ's second coming.

Riberra said:

You still don't get it .Satan as no power to do a Rapture.The point that you are missing about the DECEPTION is that the Caught up /Gathering in the clouds will not happen pre-tribulation, nor mid-tribulation, nor pre-wrath... but only at Jesus Second Coming at the End of the Great Tribulation.

1 Thess 4:16-17 is discussed in the website linked below.It will happen at Jesus Second Coming at the END of the Great Tribulation NOT Pre-Trib.

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No, I get it, and I get what you're doing too. You're causing division and your website does not promote a post-trib doctrine, it's against it and all other forms of beliefs.

Below is what your website commented on Post-Trib. http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm

Post-Tribulation Rapturism:
Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion (among Rapturists) during the time of the Reformation (16th century), but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are a lot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers believe:

The church must endure the entire 7-year period, to be Raptured at the end of the Tribulation. God will protect his children through His wrath.

This is also in error, but they are the closest to the truth out of all Rapture theories. But they fall off right at the end. They rightly say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) and that they will be here for the time of the false messiah antichrist. Then they make a nonsensical statement, they say that they will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!

This version errs in that they feel that only a portion of the people on the planet (the 'Church') will be removed before the wrath of God, which in fact commences the "Day of the Lord." But there is no selective removal before God's wrath is executed on the ungodly. The 'Church' witnesses the destruction of the ungodly but is itself protected from it. Observe this Scripture showing that some are destroyed while others yet REMAIN and witness that destruction of the ungodly: "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." {Rev 11:13}.


And I never said anything about satan having power to rapture. You're just not getting what you're reading.

Riberra said:

Every one can verify everything by themselves
They will know the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture theory DOCTRINE and also
What Does God's Word Say About It?
Link:
The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?

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No. That's not the right source of information to verify biblical prophecy. The right source to advise others is to read the bible, not your website you keep promoting.

And if you can't understand the bible, use other translations till it sinks in, not XYZ.com.


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BABerean2 said:

I agree we cannot assume that the same word always means the same thing. However, when a particular writer, in this case John, uses the same word in the same book that is a different story. Symbols used in the same book normally have the same meaning. In this particular case we have the word "candlesticks" used in the book of Revelation. Perhaps you do not want to recognize that they mean the same thing in this case, because it goes against your viewpoint.

Rev_1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev_1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev_1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks.

The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev_2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev_11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



I went back and read your earlier post about Matthew 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4.

You are attempting to draw a distinction between words in Matthew 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4, because you do not like what you find in the text.

Saying that a trump is not a trumpet is a distinction that does not exist.

Another is your example that because the word Archangel is used in one passage and the word angels is used in the other. The Archangel is an angel. Also, a reference to the Archangel does not mean that other angels are not present. It is another distinction that does not reveal anything, but your personal prejudice.

There is one word you did not mention in both passages. The word is "coming". The Greek word used is Parousia. It shows that they are referring to the same event, which is the return of Christ instead of some "Secret Rapture".


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Your prejudice against Pastor Warner's website shows a similar attitude. In the article about Grant Jeffrey cutting out parts of the quotes of the early Church fathers, pastor Warner provides the historical writing of the Church Father. He then shows in red the section cut out by Grant Jeffrey. The complete Bibliography at the end of the article provides the source so that someone can actually check the information for themselves. The majority of the article is not Pastor Warner's opinion. Instead it is made up of the quotations of the early Church fathers. If you have actually read the article, you have seen this. I would ask that everyone actually read the article and judge it for themselves instead of taking your word, or my word of it's content.


Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


I looked for and did not find any Bibliography (sources) in the opinion article you provided which gave a + to the pretrib teachers and an x to those who were of another opinion. Therefore it is based solely on that authors opinion.

Hopefully, you can see the difference between an article based solely on opinion and one based mainly on the writings of the early Church fathers. If you cannot, then we are wasting our time discussing the issue.

However, others who are reading the posts on this forum can read Pastor Warner's work and judge it for themselves, without the influence of either of us.

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LOL

Feel free to share any new source of rebuttal from Tim Warner. All his scriptural arguments can be debunk from what I read. All his arguments without scriptural support are just personal opinions....his own.

Peace brother.

n2thelight said:

Where in all of scripture is the rapture before the tribulation?,Do show........


Your first mistake is seperating Israel from the Church,Israel is and has always been the Church...

Second mistake is not understanding satans purpose

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.
Does the "rapture theory" still look inviting to you? If it does, friend, your in a heap of trouble. This is not me talking, but Paul; for he is warning you to be watching out for the Antichrist, for he is a copy of exactly what you expect of Christ. The Antichrist [Satan] will have supernatural powers, and he will come first, before our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are given the exact time of the Antichrist's arrival upon the earth in Revelation 9:1. It is at the sounding of the FIFTH TRUMPET. The trumpets are sounded in order, and the fifth trumpet is prior to the seventh. It can't be that hard to understand. Satan will be God to all the people of the world, including all Christians who do NOT have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads], to know the truth. The fall is because they will not take the simplicity and understanding in which Christ taught.

The whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.

Daniel 8:23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and under standing dark sentences, shall stand up."

Why were we told by Jesus and Paul to put on the "gospel armor"? We were told that "we do not war against the power of the arm, but against the power of dark sentences". Our fight is against the "king of fierce countenances"; and friend, that king is Satan, the Antichrist. It may be next week, next month, or next year, but you will face him in battle.

If you lose that battle, which is for your soul, you will be disposed of as he will. This next war is a spiritual war, to be fought with weapons of words, half-truths, concepts and precepts. If all you know is John 3:16, and the rapture theory, then your in trouble. If your in God's Word and understand how Satan and his offspring, the Kenites, work, and use those "dark sentences" to trick you, you will be okay. They are not to be feared, but understood. That armour that we are to use is the Word of God, and the "gospel armor" is spelled out in Ephesians 6:10-20.

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

This king is Satan, and he will "destroy", which means "deceive" many. How will this deception come? "Wonderfully", which is even deceiving. Strong's Hebrew dictionary # 6381; "Pala; a prime root; distinguished, great, marvelous, miracles, wonderfully." Friend that is how Satan, the Antichrist will come to earth. Satan will have his bag of tricks, and supply your every need, and all he expects from you is your worship, and your soul.

Though Satan's power will be mighty, he gets his power through the craftiness of the "One World" governmental system. This is nothing new, for even my grandchildren in the grade school years are taught to respect this filthy system, and all its attributes of ungodliness.

If you bow to this new system when the Antichrist is sitting at the top, you will probably prosper, as long as you continue to do it the new religious order's way. It will be the political beast arriving first; and this system is here and in control now. This political system of "one worldism" will fall, for Revelation 13:3 tells us; "And I saw one of the heads [of the beast] as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." When a governmental system receives a mortal wound, it no longer exists as an operating political system.
The political beast will and has arrived first, and it will fall, Then Satan will come to earth with his fallen angels, and revive this beast, only then it will be the religious part of the beast that will be in power. It is religious because Satan is portrayed as the True Christ. "It shall come to pass!"

Most religious leaders of today are part of this new order now being set up. Daniel is an overlay of the Book of Revelation. As Daniel and John wrote, their vision fit like a perfect glove. As time passes, God's people will not gain their freedoms back, for it is written as such. You are going to be bound and limited more and more, as God, and our Lord Jesus Christ will be removed from all forms of our lived.

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

The policy of an organization or government sets the limits of the operation of that body. Nothing is allowed to occur outside the policy. Satan's policy is to promise you whatever your price is to worship him. To most Christians today the price is so low and cheep that it simply doesn't exist. Why? Because the Kenites and their religious leaders will lead them right into Satan's camp. It may be with a government wage, a pension, or some are low enough to sell out for a medical plan. Have you given any thought as to what your price of selling your soul will be worth. If you are not sealed in your mind at the arrival of the Antichrist, you will sell out. because God's Word says that you will sell out.

Remember, you will not see our Lord Jesus Christ in your physical body, as Paul records in his book I Corinthians 15:50-52; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

"The last trump" is the seventh trumpet, and that follows the fifth trumpet when the Antichrist arrives. Friends, the first four trumpets are with us today, and most Christians have no idea what they even are. When the seventh trumpet sounds, "all flesh" will be changed into their spiritual bodies, and the "Kingdom of God, our Lord Jesus Christ" will be on earth. This change is instant, thus there will be no time to worship any Christ in your flesh body. You must keep this in your mind, or you will worship Satan.

The magnification of Satan in his own heart is what we call pride. It is this pride that caused his fall in that first earth age, and his pride will convince him that he is God, as he commits the abominations of Daniel 9:27, and Matthew 24:15. This is when Satan stands in the temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be God.

When Satan commits this abominable act, it will be the "prince of princes" who will destroy Satan, and not any man. This act will sound the seventh trumpet, and Jesus Christ will return to earth to end the Antichrist's reign. Revelation 19:19-20 describes for us how Satan and his army, and those who bowed to worship the image [Satan] are destroyed.

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Shame on you n2.

You forgot to post a link to your website you always quote from. 2thess2

And that's no way to treat a lady in here. Plus you still haven't answer my question about Eve.

So what did God cover her with and why after she ate the fruit?



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