Rain drops

duordi said:

You have a lack of evidence because you are not looking.

If you had rats running a maze would you show yourself to them?

You have to go to the end of the maze.

Or you might ask yourself who made the maze?

Duordi

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Non sequitur.

duordi said:

That's easy. God is uncontrollably drawn to anyone who has actions and attitudes like his Son Jesus.

Pick one of His attitudes and the associated actions which go with it that you like and imitate it as best you can.

Even if I am wrong what bad could come of it if you feed a few widows or homeless?


Now I have a question for you.
You are an atheist on a christian forum.
Nothing personal but that seems kind of odd to me.

There must be a history to this.
What interactions with Christians have you had that would cause this strange placement?

Please no names or anything specific just good or bad experiences you have had with God or other Christians.

I can understand an atheist having an "opinion" God does not exist but to be a logical atheist you would have to prove God does not exist and a negative is impossible to prove.

I said that because you seem to be the logical sort of person.
(The above statement was a complement)

Duordi

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Correct, positive assertions require positive evidence. Until you can prove the existence of god/s, fairies, goblins, leprechauns, demons and Satan, I'll accept the null hypothesis. Every time.

As for doing good things, I like to. In fact, can you name one moral action or deed, that you, as a believer can make, that I, an unbeliever, cannot?

duordi said:

Isn't that sort of like branding them so they will understand to stay away from fire?

It seem like you could just tell them.
They might believe you..... unless of course you already gave them the first lesson.

Duordi

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Yes, my lessons include not believing in things there is no evidence for, question everything, and to not be afraid to ask for extraordinary evidence when one makes and extraordinary claim.

duordi said:

Sometimes you can not know if something is true unless you assume it is and follow it to completion to find the result.

A mathematician which required proof that a formula worked before they would work it may be very good but they will never advance their field.

Questioning everything is fine.
Requiring answers before you start will limit you.

Duordi

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One questions because one seeks answers. Some answers may be forthcoming before an investigation commences while others come with investigation. It all depends on the question. An example would be:

A plane crashes while trying to land on an airport which is being pummelled by severe weather conditions regarded to be unsafe for aeroplanes to fly in. One will not be limited if one assumes the main answer to be that the accident was due to the weather.

Also another example would be: A car bomb explodes outside an Embassy and tens of people are wounded or killed. An investigator would be right to assume correctly that the victims were killed or wounded from the blast before he commences his investigation.

The devil is in the details and I agree with your statement but not in full.

duordi said:

That's easy. God is uncontrollably drawn to anyone who has actions and attitudes like his Son Jesus.

Pick one of His attitudes and the associated actions which go with it that you like and imitate it as best you can.

Even if I am wrong what bad could come of it if you feed a few widows or homeless?

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Well, that all depends on which attitudes or actions of Jesus one emulates. It seems strange that God would be attracted to someone for getting angry at fig trees, yet isn't attracted to someone who does good deeds for their own sake.

duordi said:

Now I have a question for you.
You are an atheist on a christian forum.
Nothing personal but that seems kind of odd to me.

There must be a history to this.
What interactions with Christians have you had that would cause this strange placement?

Please no names or anything specific just good or bad experiences you have had with God or other Christians.

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I live in the UK, so most of my interactions with anyone are going to be interactions with Christians. I used to be a Christian, but when I started going to Church properly on a regular basis, I realised that I just couldn't believe all the claims the priest was asking me to believe - that Jesus existed, that he turned water into wine, that anyone gets eternal paradise just by believing in Christ whatever atrocities they've committed, etc. After I made that realisation, I looked back over my own beliefs, and found many of them unsupportable - the necessity or even existence of God, the goodness of God (especially in light of my having actually read the OT by that point).

My interactions with Christians themselves, in their capacity as Christians (and not incidental ones, such as buying bread from a baker who just so happens to be Christian), are minimal. I've talked to them in the street, or in church, but primarily it occurs here.

So, why am I here? Because I want to know why people believe things differently to me. Why do people believe in God? Why the Christian God? Why do Conservatives believe in restrictive social spending? Why do people not believe in evolution or the Big Bang? Why do people believe in a young earth and in a special creation, or in astrology and horoscopes, or in homoeopathy? Why do people think vaccines cause autism? That's why I came, but I stayed because many of my beliefs have changed since I came here, I enjoy coming here, and I've made friends here.

duordi said:

I can understand an atheist having an "opinion" God does not exist but to be a logical atheist you would have to prove God does not exist and a negative is impossible to prove.

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I disagree. An atheist is simply someone who isn't a theist (hence the name), and a theist is someone who believes that deities exist - "I believe in God". As I don't say that, I'm an atheist.

I don't say "God doesn't exist", because I have no evidence for that. But likewise I don't say "God exists", because I have no evidence for that, either. I don't need to prove God exists or doesn't exist, nor I don't have to provide evidence for them, because I'm not asserting either of those claims.

That said, I also disagree that proving a negative is impossible - it's quite easy to prove that an invisible pink unicorn doesn't exist, by virtue of the fact that 'invisible' and 'pink' are mutually exclusive, and so to have both is incoherent. Therefore, invisible pink unicorns simply cannot exist.

More generally, it's even easier to provide evidence that something doesn't exist, by using the principle that "absence of evidence is evidence of absence". If the existence of something would leave a trace, yet no trace is seen, then that's evidence that that something didn't, or doesn't, exist. Elephants in my garden would leave tell-tale signs - even if their large, grey mass were hidden behind a tree, there would be noise, smell, poo, footprints, etc. Since none of those things exist, I can conclude that elephants do not, in fact, exist in my garden.

duordi said:

I have been giving some thought to the whole idea of requesting proof of Gods existence from God.

I think you have a problem.

Let me explain.

Suppose you demand that God prove himself but you will only accept scientific proof. (I am assuming that is what you are requesting.)

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Correct. And it's not an unreasonable demand - since Christians claim that being a Christian is the only way to escape an eternity of suffering, you'd think God would make revealing his existence his top priority.

duordi said:

Now, suppose God agrees and allows you to discover how the flood happened scientifically. If you don't like the flood, then how He turned water to wine or whatever. You can pick one.

Now as soon as you know how the physical laws work that were involved you don't need God anymore because you have found another reason the event happened.

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Correct - if someone could demonstrate that there was a global flood, and there were completely natural reasons for it to happen, then obviously there isn't any need to invoke God in the explanation.

duordi said:

So what you are really asking for from God, is for Him to give you a way to explain away His existence.

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Actually, I'm asking him to prove (or, at least, demonstrate) his existence. If discovering proof of, and a completely natural mechanism for, the Flood (or what have you) doesn't do that, then that's clearly not what I'm asking.

1) "God, prove you exist"
2) "OK, here's a proof that I didn't don't exist"
3) "... that isn't what I asked"

duordi said:

The question is if we ask God to explain Himself away, what response will we get?

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Presumably, whatever it was he did that proved his existence to you. Or otherwise some event or phenomenon that can only be explained through the existence of God - maybe my voice is bleeped out whenever I say any word or phrase but 'Jesus Christ'. Maybe prayers for healing are ignored, except when they're directed to the Christian god. Maybe giant words are emblazoned in the sky saying, "Yes, WC, I exist". Maybe the Bible, demonstrably an ancient document, contains explicit, exhaustive details on events that couldn't possibly be predicted by human minds.

If God exists, and is as smart as he's made out to be, I'm sure he could come up with something even more conclusive.

duordi said:

(whisper) I mean what if He is not stupid enough to fall for it?

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Then he would be deliberately hiding his existence from me (and from anyone else who wanted to know). Since not going to Hell is predicated on a belief in him (and, subsequently, choosing to love him, etc), he would therefore be condemning me to Hell:

• By not revealing his existence, he gives me no reason to believe in him.
• Without a reason to believe in him, I can't believe in him - I'm simply incapable of simply flicking a switch and 'choosing' to believe something, I (not unreasonably) need something more substantive than the threat of Hell.
• If I don't believe in him, then I can't love him.
• If I don't love him, if I don't accept him into my heart, then, according to most modern Christians, I'm going to Hell.

Wiccan_Child said:

Why do people believe in God? Why the Christian God?

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Because He can and does deliver on what He says He will deliver on. Man will let you down, science will disappoint you. But God is always able. There is no problem He can not solve, there is no question He can not answer. Even if He does things His way, in His time.

anyone else who wanted to know

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The Bible says seek and you shall find. God will come to those who are seeking Him. He does things His way according to His time. He will be found by those who want to know Him. If your plan is to get Him to do things your way, then it ain't gonna work.

Jamin4422 said:

Because He can and does deliver on what He says He will deliver on. Man will let you down, science will disappoint you. But God is always able. There is no problem He can not solve, there is no question He can not answer.

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Can you ask him what the cure for cancer is?

Jamin4422 said:

The Bible says seek and you shall find. God will come to those who are seeking Him. He does things His way according to His time. He will be found by those who want to know Him.

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Then one wonders why he doesn't show himself to all the non-Christian theists, people who believe in and seek God, yet are inexplicably drawn to false religions.

Jamin4422 said:

If your plan is to get Him to do things your way, then it ain't gonna work.

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Since it's not, then that's grand.

It's God, not me, who set up the system such that non-believers go to Hell. If God expects me to believe in him, and he doesn't give me any reason to, it's not really me who's trying to call the shots.

Wiccan_Child said:

Can you ask him what the cure for cancer is?

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According to Hippocrates the cure was virtue and good humor.

Jamin4422 said:

According to Hippocrates the cure was virtue and good humor.

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Hippocrates also correctly concluded that all ailments and diseases were due to natural reasons and not due to demons, gods, or any supernatural causes.

You were asked about God and not Hippocrates. Now please answer the question: "Can you ask him what the cure for cancer is"? posed to you by Wiccan Child!

Wiccan_Child said:

It's God, not me, who set up the system such that non-believers go to Hell.

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I do not know that anyone gets away with anything. Believers tend to suffer for their sin in this life, because when they die they go onto their reward. Hell (Hades) and death will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. As far as I know this means they will be destroyed at that time and they will be no more. I tend to believe the Bible teaches annihilation for the sinner and the unbeliever. God's desire is whosoever is willing let them come. I got to tell you I believe what God tells me. According to the Bible if you do not see that then you are deceived. "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."[/FONT]

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

People put so much effort into an education that lasts a lifetime. Why not more effort into reading the Bible, because that lasts for all eternity.

duordi said:

I have been giving some thought to the whole idea of requesting proof of Gods existence from God.

I think you have a problem.

Let me explain.

Suppose you demand that God prove himself but you will only accept scientific proof. (I am assuming that is what you are requesting.)

Now, suppose God agrees and allows you to discover how the flood happened scientifically. If you don't like the flood, then how He turned water to wine or whatever. You can pick one.

Now as soon as you know how the physical laws work that were involved you don't need God anymore because you have found another reason the event happened.

So what you are really asking for from God, is for Him to give you a way to explain away His existence.

The question is if we ask God to explain Himself away, what response will we get?

(whisper) I mean what if He is not stupid enough to fall for it?

Duordi

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This is somewhat of a problem for your opinion on God because according you there is scientific evidence for the flood.

mzungu said:

You were asked about God and not Hippocrates. Now please answer the question: "Can you ask him what the cure for cancer is"? posed to you by Wiccan Child!

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The cure for cancer is to choose life:

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”