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Radiometric Dating: An immutable proof of old Earth.

Biologist

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How does radiometric dating work:

0e924fd0e4246c71c7b7dbc7aaccb49b.jpg

To the average person these appear to be normal glow sticks. However, these are Tritium(Hydrogen: 1 proton+2 neutrons) glow sticks. The glow is a nuclear reaction, Tritium -> Helium 3. There was no helium in the vials when they were manufactured. Yet after 12.32 years, you will find that exactly half of the atoms are now helium. Those numbers, 12.32 years and 50% He 50% Tritium, aren't guesses. If you broke the glass and measured after 10 minutes, day 1, day 100, 12.32 years, 26.64 years. You get exactly the same half-life value for Tritium. This experiment is so basic that one of the many variants are done every semester by millions of students in college. The equation is the same, it doesn't matter if the half-life is seconds or millions of years. We even are able to accurately measure half-life's as small as yottoseconds in the Large Hardon Collider.

Experimental Examples of Half Life measurements:
Here is the experiment being done for Radon-220(video is 2m30s HL is 55s):
Here it is on a different Isotope(video is 10m):
Any other variants can been cited as needed.

The Properties of Crystals and Zircon crystals:
1. A single lattice represents a single crystal during a single crystallization event.
2. Every intact chemical bond in the crystal lattice was formed during the process of crystallization.
3. Zircon only incorporates (Zr,Hf,U,Th,Y)SiO4 into the lattice.
4. Lead doesn't incorporate into Zircon lattices. (Zr, Pb)SiO4 is not chemically possible.

The properties of Uranium Decay:
5. U-238 decays into Pb-206, U-235 decays into Pb-207.
6. The measured half-life of U-238 is 4.47 billion. The measured half-life of U-235 in 704 million years.
7. These measurements have been made many times over the course of 70 years and show no signs of variation.
8. These two decay processes yield two measurable isotope ratios of (U->Pb).
9. This decay process produces high energy nuclear damage to the lattice.
10. This decay process also produces Helium in measurable quantities.

What we observe when we dig up Zircon Crystals in nature:
11. Single lattice Crystals made up of (Zr,Hf,U,Th,Y)SiO4
12. High energy Crystal lattice fractures surrounding Lead which is not incorporated in the lattice.
13. Two different U-Pb isotopes ratios.
14. In a single lattice, both ratios when plugged into the half-life equation yield the same time elapsed. A relationship that even a tiny amount of outside Lead(which has different isotopic ratios) contamination would destroy.
15. An amount of Helium that always corresponds to the total (U->Pb) decay.

What we have never observed:
16. A varying decay rate(half-life) for any element. American Russian or Chinese, 1950 or 2016, Freshman or Researcher, we always measure the same rates of decay(half-life).
17. A Zircon lattice chemically embedded with Lead.
18. A process for Lead to become trapped during the Zircon crystallization process.
19. Lead that isn't surrounded by high energy fractures.
20. Evidence of outside Lead contamination(different isotopic ratios).
21. An amount of Helium that doesn't correspond with the (U->Pb) quantities and ratios.

Why the earth can't possibly be young:
1. Both Scientific Researchers and the Institute for Creation Research(Dr Humphrey) agree: The (U->Pb) ratios represent decayed Uranium.[source]
2. Both SR and Dr Humphrey agree on the amount of decay. (affirming my first 15 points)
3. Dr Humphrey argues that through some unknown mechanism the decay rate(half-life) was different in the past(point #16 on my list). And through some unknown mechanism has remained constant since the 1950s. He argues this indirectly by measuring diffusion rates, not decay rates(half-life). He only contracted his version of the Helium diffusion experiment to be performed once in 2001. He choose high temperature low pressure testing, which is contrary to the conditions of the source rock. Many others have performed this experiment both before and after Dr Humphrey, no other team can confirm his results as valid in high temperature high pressure environments.
4. If the amount of decay that has occurred happened during a young earth time scale, radioactive background decay would have to increase by a billion fold which Dr Humphrey argues directly.
5. It's simply not reasonable to believe that Dr Humphrey's assertion that an average rate of a billion times nuclear decay is compatible with:
5a. Biology, background radiation from the earth would destroy DNA/Proteins 1billions times faster.
5b. Geology, radioactive ores would go super critical and form natural reactors(or atom bombs) all over the earth.
5c. Astrophysics, the Sun would produce a billion times the gamma rays or go supernova.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Very good. For zircon's you just showed rather convincingly that we know the concentrations of both the parent material, the daughter material, and how radioactive rates, especially alpha decay, have never been observed to have a significant variance.

Can you do the same for Rb/SR? Here is a hint, we usually do not know the initial ratios of parent to daughter, but it does not matter.
 
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Subduction Zone

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WHY does it work?
Because we can do the following:

We can know the beginning amount of daughter product in zircons. It is zero (by the way if you don't understand any of these points I can go over them in more depth and I am sure that the OP can too).

We can measure the present levels of daughter products and parent products. Since we know that there was no original daughter product simple addition gives us the original amount of parent product.

We can accurately measure the rate of radioactive decay. It is a constant.

Using that knowledge we can plug those amounts into the proper equation and the age of the mineral is given. Again, if you need a more thorough explanation it can be given. Or links to sites could be given too.
 
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Biologist

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WHY does it work?
It's not a deep philosophical problem. The how and why are the same. Asking why a watch works will yield a description of its gears and springs. Asking why radiometric dating works yeilds a description of various physical properties that create a natural clock.

Why wouldn't these 21 physical properties function as a natural clock? We have a Time =0(single lattice no decay), a method for counting(radioactive decay) and methods to test for external contamination.

This post isn't a complete list of those features. Please respond to the OP, if you have specific objections to why/how radiometric dating works.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Why is it a constant?


You would have to talk to a physicist for a full explanation, do you really one to ask that? I can try to help you. If they could change the consequences would be dire for creationists. The energy released in an alpha decay is tied to how much energy is released. Speeding up the decay would not only increase the rate of energy release, so would the amount of energy released per reaction. For creationist ages you would melt the Earth. It is a self defeating claim on the part of creationists.
We have observed radioactive decays over a hundred thousand years in the past and they are the same as today.

But the simple fact is that we have observed that they are constant and if you want to claim that the rates have changed in the past the burden of proof is upon you for that claim.
 
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juvenissun

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You would have to talk to a physicist for a full explanation, do you really one to ask that? I can try to help you. If they could change the consequences would be dire for creationists. The energy released in an alpha decay is tied to how much energy is released. Speeding up the decay would not only increase the rate of energy release, so would the amount of energy released per reaction. For creationist ages you would melt the Earth. It is a self defeating claim on the part of creationists.
We have observed radioactive decays over a hundred thousand years in the past and they are the same as today.

But the simple fact is that we have observed that they are constant and if you want to claim that the rates have changed in the past the burden of proof is upon you for that claim.

It changes or not is one question.
Why does it not change is a more important question. If we can not answer that, then the calculated age may not be real.
 
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juvenissun

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It's not a deep philosophical problem. The how and why are the same. Asking why a watch works will yield a description of its gears and springs. Asking why radiometric dating works yeilds a description of various physical properties that create a natural clock.

Why wouldn't these 21 physical properties function as a natural clock? We have a Time =0(single lattice no decay), a method for counting(radioactive decay) and methods to test for external contamination.

How do you know the method of counting is counting the time? It might count something else.
 
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46AND2

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It changes or not is one question.
Why does it not change is a more important question. If we can not answer that, then the calculated age may not be real.

It has to do with basic phisical/chemical properties. The strong and weak nuclear force, atomic mass, etc. To change the decay rate of, say, uranium, it would make it not-uranium. The decay rate is inherent in its physical properties.
 
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46AND2

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How do you know the method of counting is counting the time? It might count something else.

In the same way we know how much time has passed if an empty 5 gallon bucket has been filled halfway by water flowing at 1 gal/min.
 
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SkyWriting

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If the amount of decay that has occurred happened during a young earth time scale, radioactive background decay would have to increase by a billion fold

I don't know the age of the earth. It has
no effect on God's message to man.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It changes or not is one question.
Why does it not change is a more important question. If we can not answer that, then the calculated age may not be real.

There is no evidence of change. There is no reason to believe that it could change. If it had changed the way that creationists want it to the Earth would be a molten ball of magma. It is a rather poor question that only demonstrates your lack of understanding of this topic. Worst of all if you want to claim that it changed then the burden of proof is upon you and that has been a major fail of creationist "physicists".
 
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juvenissun

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It has to do with basic phisical/chemical properties. The strong and weak nuclear force, atomic mass, etc. To change the decay rate of, say, uranium, it would make it not-uranium. The decay rate is inherent in its physical properties.

Talk is cheap. I like to see the details.
 
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juvenissun

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In the same way we know how much time has passed if an empty 5 gallon bucket has been filled halfway by water flowing at 1 gal/min.

Can you project the time needed when we try to fill the oceanic basin on the same rate?
 
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juvenissun

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There is no evidence of change. There is no reason to believe that it could change.

Fine. But WHY won't it change?
If we do not know why, then it might change.
Yes, physics. But I don't think any physicist has the answer yet. Otherwise, you might be the first one to quote the knowledge in argument.
 
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