Rabbis...

[simchat_torah]

They are all about ant-"rabbinics", to the extreme some
come across as borderline anti-semitic.

Yet they want to "reach out" to the Jew. Don't they realize how damaging it is to their mission to do such things????

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

A country club where you get burned, stoned, gassed, and attacked. Who would really want to join that club anyway? lol...

As soon as the tide turns and this type of thing becomes popular in Western culture again, the wannabe Jews will toss out the tallitot and start filling pews at the local Baptist church.

Don't get me wrong, everyone wanting to be a Jew is flattering in a strange way. But the unwillingness to accept or understand everything that comes with being a Jew makes it disingenuous, and offensive when they claim to speak as and for Jews.

 

[ContraMundum]

A country club where you get burned, stoned, gassed, and attacked. Who would really want to join that club anyway? lol...

Some people seem to be attracted to being a victim/underdog, so becoming or identifying with being Jewish is one way they can openly express their victim mentality. I don't know the psychological term for it, but it does happen. I've met Christians in sects who also feel victimised or believe that the "world system" is going to persecute them to martyrdom at some stage (or already is). Their identity as a persecuted "true remnant" gives them a strange comfort. Funny thing is: they aren't actually persecuted. They tend to live in Western and affluent countries. The Christians who are truly persecuted are usually mainstream believers in poor or hostile countries like those in Africa or the Middle and Near East who actually do suffer tremendous persecution. Likewise the Jews who cry "persecuted" but live in the US or somewhere free and affluent- there's no persecution there- if they lived in Iran or somewhere else then they would have a legit gripe. Thus, when I hear of a person wanting to become Jewish and it becomes apparent that this is because they identify with being persecuted, alarm bells go off for me.

 

[simchat_torah]

Don't get me wrong, everyone wanting to be a Jew is flattering in a strange way. But the unwillingness to accept or understand everything that comes with being a Jew makes it disingenuous, and offensive when they claim to speak as and for Jews.

Yes indeed.

 

[stone]

FAR more than "on occasion". In fact, it has been incessently preached on this very forum.Bingo.Its not a big hairy deal... but Messianics make it one. They demand that anything Grecko/Roman MUST be influenced by paganism. They condemn anyone who uses Grecko/Roman language and insist on copycating the Jewish traditions.

Moreover, it has been pointed out to no end in this thread that the goss desire that Messianics seem to have in copycating the Jews and Judaism. It has been pointed out that this copycating is offensive to Jews. It has been pointed out that most Messinaics don't even have a clue what the meaning is behind what they coycat. It has been sufficiently pointed out that Gentiles assume the whole of the mitzvot are intended for them to follow, and how this is incorrect. While ignoring portions of the "law" that teach the Gentile how to live, they pretend they are Jewish and twist everything to fit as if they too are Jews. Messianism doesn't properly divide the mitzvot, showing where some laws apply to Jews and some to Gentiles. They assume (and teach) it all should be carried out by Gentiles.

In fact, it has been argued sufficiently that this is wrong and no one on the Messianic side of the coin has clearly argued anything to the contrary. Every point that is made is only answered with a bunch of whining.

They want to walk around and look like Jews. They want to use titles (ie: Rabbi) without meeting the requirements for said titles. They want to speak the language of the Jew but don't bother to learn what it means (ie: They use "Brit Chadasha" or "Yeshua" but don't read Hebrew or Aramaic... they just like the Hebrewfied terminology). No, but Gentiles pretend they are Jews and follow the mitzvot that the Jews are intended to follow. And they condemn the Christians, like Contra, who use Latin/Greek/Roman terms. They insist Yeshua/Y'shua/Yahushah/Yeshu/Yahoshua/etc/etc/ect is the proper term (they can't even agree on that!). All of this, coming from of course, people who aren't even native in the Hebrew/Aramaic tongue! While creating some fascimilie to the name of their Messiah, they look down on anyone who doesn't adhere to their twisted interpretations.
No one cares. That is until Messianism begins demonizing the Grecko/Roman expession of your faith.

true

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

I asked what does the word "Scripture" in the New Testament refer to?

Shamash, we got the principles I outlined for you previously about ordination from scripture. That's why we believe as we do- it's scriptural. It's not from men, it's from scripture. Perhaps you've not noticed it before. Like I said, we could talk about it on another thread and I can show you where in scripture our beliefs come from.

 

[stone]

I believe it is written in the book of Acts where the jerusalem council made it clear that gentiles are not bound to the Torah, but when concerning food, must only refrain from strangled meats and from blood? That did give me pause while i was MJ.

However, that doesn't mean that i am going to put any unclean thing into my mouth, but that is just a result of a personal relationship with G-d.

 

[anisavta]

Some people seem to be attracted to being a victim/underdog, so becoming or identifying with being Jewish is one way they can openly express their victim mentality. I don't know the psychological term for it, but it does happen. I've met Christians in sects who also feel victimised or believe that the "world system" is going to persecute them to martyrdom at some stage (or already is). Their identity as a persecuted "true remnant" gives them a strange comfort. Funny thing is: they aren't actually persecuted. They tend to live in Western and affluent countries. The Christians who are truly persecuted are usually mainstream believers in poor or hostile countries like those in Africa or the Middle and Near East who actually do suffer tremendous persecution. Likewise the Jews who cry "persecuted" but live in the US or somewhere free and affluent- there's no persecution there- if they lived in Iran or somewhere else then they would have a legit gripe. Thus, when I hear of a person wanting to become Jewish and it becomes apparent that this is because they identify with being persecuted, alarm bells go off for me.

Someone help me out here.
How does Remy's OP about wanting a rabbi to mentor him fit in with the decision that Gentiles grafting into Israel and taking on the title of Messianic mean they want to be Jews and want to be persecuted???

 

[-Nikolai-]

Why are you pulling out this card now?...you've been a willing participant in the derailment up to this point...

 

[simchat_torah]

How does Remy's OP about wanting a rabbi to mentor him fit in with the decision that Gentiles grafting into Israel and taking on the title of Messianic mean they want to be Jews and want to be persecuted???

As I clearly pointed out numerous occasions, and has lead us to this point in the discussion:
you will not find a certified Rabbi in the Messianic community. What you will find is someone who has never attended a Yeshivah that calls themselves a Rabbi. This is the copycating we speak of.

Where did you miss this? I've mentioned it a dozen times.

 

[anisavta]

When you can name every congregational leader in the Messianic movement and give me his credentials than I will join in the everyone and no one game.

 

[ContraMundum]

I asked what does the word "Scripture" in the New Testament refer to?

I don't think your point is relevant to anything I have discussed, and I suspect we are going to head down the usual rabbit trial....so just to stop that before it gets going...

We live in a time after the NT- so scripture (in the document you cited) refers to all scripture ratified by the church. Not that it is important anymore, but in the NT the word "scripture" is used to refer to the ancient texts of the time. However, since the Church, led by the Holy Spirit, has added more scripture to the whole canon the same principles of authority apply to the NT canon as they do to the Tanach.

Some people have in the past (and even on this forum) tried to apply St Paul's comments about the authority and sufficiency of scripture to St Timothy only to the Torah, because that was the only scripture at the time of writing. Of course, this is just absurd as St Paul, St Peter and Jesus all instruct us to adhere to their teachings as well. The Church holds as inspired and equal all the writings she has canonized.

 

[ContraMundum]

When you can name every congregational leader in the Messianic movement and give me his credentials than I will join in the everyone and no one game.

I think this is a semantic dispute.

ST's point is valid- to his knowledge there's no leader within MJism that would qualify to be called a Rabbi in the sense of a Jewish Rabbi with a smicha. If you find one, let him know.

However, we know that the term "Rabbi" can also apply to teachers who have not received a smicha (ordination), especially among the haredi sects. So, in the sense of "non ordained teachers", perhaps the MJs could use the word Rabbi, but it is highly inappropriate if you ask me and can be misleading. Rabbinical training takes years, and even a Rabbi without a smicha is going to be qualified for his role.

What ST and others are noting is that there is no standard with which a congregation can be assured that their "Rabbi" has been thoroughly tested. Some congregations perhaps fare better than others, but the worst case scenario is letting self-appointed men start their own congregations and gather people around them. This is a shame and is dangerous.

OTOH, a properly trained minister could theoretically be called a "Rabbi", as he is a teacher. As a matter of fact, even a Catholic priest I know of who visits a Jewish sysnagogue is often affectionately called "Rabbi" by the Jews- a term of respect for his learning and leadership of his own faith community. However, this Priest is not a missionary to the Jews nor their mentor, but a true friend to them. Perhaps his respect for them has earned a mutual respect?

Personally speaking, the Christian ministry, as outlined in the NT, should be what MJs are looking for in their coingregations, not a copycat Jewish Rabbinate.

 

[simchat_torah]

When you can name every congregational leader in the Messianic movement and give me his credentials

We all know I can't do that. We all know you can't do that. We all know there isn't a single Messianic here who can do that. No one here is omniscient. We all know this is merely a distractionary tactic you're using. We all know you have no defense against the case I've laid out.

A decade in the movement I didn't find a single "Messianic Rabbi" who held a simcha from a Yeshivah... and I purposefully looked. I made it a personal mission. I've asked dozens of other Messianics if they've ever known a single "Rabbi" who met said credentials, and none have ever found such an individual.

Interesting that instead of addressing the issue at hand, or addressing a single concern I've raised in this whole thread, you want to thow up an impossible challenge. You ask me to be omniscient. You know this isn't possible, and is only a way for you to end the conversation without actually having a discussion.

How about instead of playing a game, you actually address many of the concerns I've raised? Why use such ridiculous tactics????

 

[simchat_torah]

What ST and others are noting is that there is no standard with which a congregation can be assured that their "Rabbi" has been thoroughly tested.

Exactly.

But to be fair, despite the Charedi sects choice to use the term prior to oridination, thee really is a well defined useage of the term. Bare minimum it is one who has received simcha ordination or in the case of Charedi sects it refers to one pursuing such a recognition.

 

[ContraMundum]

Exactly.

But to be fair, despite the Charedi sects choice to use the term prior to oridination, thee really is a well defined useage of the term. Bare minimum it is one who has received simcha ordination or in the case of Charedi sects it refers to one pursuing such a recognition.

Yep. Perhaps the underlying sentiment (the elephant in the room) is that some people just don't like establishment of any sort, and any formal seminary training is seen as being corrupted and the "teaching of men" or something. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here. But why people would be so attracted to untrained teachers who have cool titles is beyond me. I'm not sure how relevant my comments are, but I'm sure someone out there can tell me if this is the case or not?

 

[simchat_torah]

Yep. Perhaps the underlying sentiment (the elephant in the room) is that some people just don't like establishment of any sort, and any formal seminary training is seen as being corrupted and the "teaching of men" or something. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here. But why people would be so attracted to untrained teachers who have cool titles is beyond me. I'm not sure how relevant my comments are, but I'm sure someone out there can tell me if this is the case or not?

What's that cooking in the kitchen? Smells like a bit of truth to me

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Again as I have said before in probably most threads - I can only speak for me. Hopefully more Messianic folk will speak up and answer for themselves.
I call Him Yeshua because:
~that's what His ima called Him.
~the name Yeshua means just what it means - salvation.
~Jesus is a hybrid of Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs) which is Greek and since I am Jewish I prefer my home tongue.
~Jesus is the name used by every religion and half the time their Jesus is sure not the Messiah. And I hear it used as an epitaph more than not. And when I see it in writing half the time it is some dude in East LA.
I say Ruach Hakodesh because that is what it means - holy breath or wind. When I hear Holy Ghost or Spirit I think spooky things in white sheets. And it goes back to that native tongue thing again.
Brit Chadasha means new covenant. And I have trouble with that distinction between the old testament (covenant) and new testament (covenant) anyway like there is suppose to be a blank piece of paper dividing Malachi from Matthew. There isn't BTW. I prefer Apostolic scripture and Tanakh.
And Sha'ul is the name his ima gave him. Paul is the Greek name (there's that native tongue thing again). Rav because being a teacher which is what rabbi means Sha'ul indeed taught and had a following whether he wanted it or not.

Well said.

You know it just occurred to me - why is it such a big hairy deal? Is there somewhere in the Torah that says we must all speak to HaShem like Contra or anyone else? If you don't like saying Yeshua than don't. But why is it so important for me or someone else to use His Greek or actually His hybrid name? Are you telling me I'm wrong in using Hebrew instead of Greek? I guess we all have to be Episcopalians or Methodists or Baptists - but heaven forbid a gasp Messianic.
We argue about the most insignificant things don't we?

That's a good question. I'd like to know why too. And you're right. We (people) have a tendency to argue about the most trivial things. I mean, this was supposed to be a thread from some poor guy needing direction and spiritual advice. Instead it became a mind-numbing 14 page thread about who should be excluded from Biblical worship and why. Now, that is my opinion and only my opinion, but that's how I read it. Why can't we just live and let live? Messianic worship may not work for people like ContraMundum and simchat_torah, but is it really anyone's business if others don't agree with thier posistion? Shouldn't it be between an individual and G-d? I'm just saying.

 

[johnd]

People love to put faith in faith... rather than faith in God.

That's why.

 

[johnd]

If a police officer says "Halt in the name of the law or I'll shoot." This is not the time to inquire what that name is. It is Pete or Pablo? What's the Law's name?

The name is what is actually the meaning that it stands for (rather than the nomenclature of a particular tongue).

I always got a chuckle from those who insist on any other baptism but baptism into the name of Jesus being illegitimate. Which Jesus name, I ask them? Our English Bible is translated from the Greek Iesous, from the Hebrew Y'shua short for Yeshua or Yoshua more fully Yehoshua... from the two words YHVH Shua (Yahweh Saves)...

Name means more than the label. It DOES matter that the genuine article is believed in / worshiped... but the name is the name God made for himself.

And praying in his name is praying for what he wants and what he stands for, not just a mantra "in Jesus' name, amen..."

If you'll notice, the Apostles used the phrase "in the name of..." when speaking about him... never to him... at least not that I am aware of.

"In the name of Jesus Christ, rise up and walk..." not to him, about him.