Rabbis...

[TexasBluebonnet]

Yeah. I was watching Luther one night (before I knew about his anti-semtic tude, which btw wasn't even touched on. Go figure.) But it became evident to me that people use religion to have power over people. That's why I say G-d gave Y'shua so we would have faith. Men gave us religion to have power over people.

 

[johnd]

Keeping of the Law (or rather the inability for man to keep the Law) is the real purpose of the Law...

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We ARE under Law... a higher Law...

1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Jeremiah 31:31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

read again...

Jeremiah 31:31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

I believe it was Anisavta that mentioned something about having to be Methodists and God forbid Messianic...

The irony is that all "Christians" if they are truly Christian are Messianic... only in denial or ignorance. That's why there are so many schisms and divisions.

 

[johnd]

​

It's good to see you again, T.B.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Keeping of the Law (or rather the inability for man to keep the Law) is the real purpose of the Law...

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We ARE under Law... a higher Law...

1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Jeremiah 31:31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

read again...

Jeremiah 31:31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

I believe it was Anisavta that mentioned something about having to be Methodists and God forbid Messianic...

The irony is that all "Christians" if they are truly Christian are Messianic... only in denial or ignorance. That's why there are so many schisms and divisions.

Wow. Couldn't have said it better myself. I mean that for sure. And I agree with that last part for sure. It is ironic, isn't it? And it could be a fear of the Messianic movement. The fear that if they move beyond Christianity then they are somehow heretics or something.

It's good to see you again, T.B.

Awww, thanks ! It's good to be back here. Now, if only I could make it to Shabbat every week. We're having a situation where we have to keep our dogs quiet so, it makes really hard to go anywhere for too long. Please pray that we can close on a house soon. I really miss my congregation. I almost feel like I'm in exile . As soon as we close on the house we've bid on I can get my life back. Anyway, we really need your prayers. Thanks again for the welcome back message. It put a smile on my face .

 

[johnd]

Done.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Done.

Much appreciated ! I need all the prayers I can get. It's just too bad I didn't learn from the O.T. stories. But I guess I had to learn on my own. I had to come to a place where I couldn't go just to show where my heart really lies and how much I need to be there. I mean no offense, but it almost feels like my mini Babylon here. Sigh I was actually crying over the weekend because I can't be where my heart is.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yeah. I was watching Luther one night (before I knew about his anti-semtic tude, which btw wasn't even touched on. Go figure.)

Luther wasn't anti-semitic until very late in his life, and in the era of his life depicted in the movie he was criticised for being too "pro-Jewish", as seen in some of his works ("Jesus was a Jew" and "How Christians should regard Moses" were both considered too pro-Jewish for their time).

But it became evident to me that people use religion to have power over people. That's why I say G-d gave Y'shua so we would have faith. Men gave us religion to have power over people.

People will use anything- not just religion- to have power over people if they want it.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Luther wasn't anti-semitic until very late in his life, and in the era of his life depicted in the movie he was criticised for being too "pro-Jewish", as seen in some of his works ("Jesus was a Jew" and "How Christians should regard Moses" were both considered too pro-Jewish for their time).

People will use anything- not just religion- to have power over people if they want it.

Those are very good points you made, and I don't argue against them, but he was anti-semetic in his later life. Very virulently so in my opinion. I guess he was a man of extremes. Going from being "too pro-Jewish" to very anti-semetic. I've read some of his statements and honestly I find them appalling. But you're right, he didn't start off that way. As far as religion, you're correct about that too. Although (again, my opinion) I think it's the saddest form of control over people and the one that is the worst of all methods.

 

[Ivy]

It's obvious to me that Luther mentally snapped towards the end of his life. He was pretty sane up to a certain point, but I think he must have become mentally unhinged to say and write the things he did towards the end, when priorly he had had such a love for the Jewish people. I'm not making excuses for him--he is still accountable for his words--but he was certainly under severe strain for a lot of his life, and he fell off the beam towards the end.

 

[ContraMundum]

Those are very good points you made, and I don't argue against them, but he was anti-semetic in his later life. Very virulently so in my opinion. I guess he was a man of extremes. Going from being "too pro-Jewish" to very anti-semetic. I've read some of his statements and honestly I find them appalling. But you're right, he didn't start off that way.

Yes. Some of the theories as to why he snapped are rather interesting, but I'm not sure it would be helpful to discuss them here. Still, I think his later theology was quite fuzzy too. He was a sharp as a razor in his early career and I love his writings before 1430. After that, I avoid them. He went through hell in his life and let's hope he didn't go there in his afterlife.

As far as religion, you're correct about that too. Although (again, my opinion) I think it's the saddest form of control over people and the one that is the worst of all methods.

Yes, I can't stand it when religions use power to control people. Hamas is an arm of an Islamic extremist cult and they use religion to oppress people. Most of the Christian cults use control to keep people in line too- so does many forms of other religions, including some Heredi sects.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

He went through hell in his life and let's hope he didn't go there in his afterlife.

Maybe I'm less knowledgeable than I thought, but wasn't this guy the big kahuna in forming protestant Chrstianity? You still think he might have gone to hell?

Chrstianity is a very harsh faith system indeed if that's the case.

 

[anisavta]

Maybe I'm less knowledgeable than I thought, but wasn't this guy the big kahuna in forming protestant Chrstianity? You still think he might have gone to hell?

Chrstianity is a very harsh faith system indeed if that's the case.

HaShem Himself says,"I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel."
Thankfully we don't have the power or even knowledge to know who truly will "make it" or not. That is up to HaShem. All we can do is work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[ContraMundum]

Maybe I'm less knowledgeable than I thought, but wasn't this guy the big kahuna in forming protestant Chrstianity? You still think he might have gone to hell?

Chrstianity is a very harsh faith system indeed if that's the case.

I don't know whether or not he went to Hell- I doubt it, personally speaking, because God heard his last confession and knew his human frailty in body, mind and spirit. I suppose I was unwise to say what I did.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Yes. Some of the theories as to why he snapped are rather interesting, but I'm not sure it would be helpful to discuss them here. Still, I think his later theology was quite fuzzy too. He was a sharp as a razor in his early career and I love his writings before 1430. After that, I avoid them. He went through hell in his life and let's hope he didn't go there in his afterlife.



Yes, I can't stand it when religions use power to control people. Hamas is an arm of an Islamic extremist cult and they use religion to oppress people. Most of the Christian cults use control to keep people in line too- so does many forms of other religions, including some Heredi sects.

Maybe I'm less knowledgeable than I thought, but wasn't this guy the big kahuna in forming protestant Chrstianity? You still think he might have gone to hell?

Chrstianity is a very harsh faith system indeed if that's the case.

Like CM, I don't know if he went to hell or not, but I do know that 1st James 5:17 says that all wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. So...maybe he falls under that heading? I dunno know. That's why I'm not G-d.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

According to Judaism, there are very few sins that result in death, and even then, a court that executed two people in an eighty year period was considered bloody.

As for Luther going to hell, it still seems like most of you are on the fence. I find that pretty shocking.

 

[ContraMundum]

According to Judaism, there are very few sins that result in death, and even then, a court that executed two people in an eighty year period was considered bloody.

Yep.

As for Luther going to hell, it still seems like most of you are on the fence. I find that pretty shocking.

I'm not on the fence at all- but I am not allowed (by my "halacha") to proclaim anyone (other than the most obvious saints and martyrs- David, Moses, Abraham, Mary, the Apostles etc.) in Heaven. I believe Luther is most likely in Heaven because of his final confession and reliance on God's grace and mercy- but the church as a whole has not declared him as such yet, nor is it likely without a universal council.

So, people tend to reserve that final proclamation to God alone. In our hearts and minds, we think all Christians who live the righteous life are in God's presence after their departure.

 

[anisavta]

According to Judaism, there are very few sins that result in death, and even then, a court that executed two people in an eighty year period was considered bloody.

As for Luther going to hell, it still seems like most of you are on the fence. I find that pretty shocking.

No we just figure G~d has the final authority and it's up to Him to make the final judgement. And no it doesn't shock you. Remember you don't believe in hell so I'm sure you could care less where any of us end up.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

No we just figure G~d has the final authority and it's up to Him to make the final judgement. And no it doesn't shock you.

That you debate the final destination of one of your religion's major figures is pretty shocking. Given that the person who made the comment qualified it, it seems the misunderstanding is cleared up. However, for something that seems so important to your religion, it seems to be discussed in a flippant way. C'est la vie.

Remember you don't believe in hell so I'm sure you could care less where any of us end up.

Blah, blah, blah. It really is getting dull, anisavta.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

According to Judaism, there are very few sins that result in death, and even then, a court that executed two people in an eighty year period was considered bloody.

As for Luther going to hell, it still seems like most of you are on the fence. I find that pretty shocking.

You do know I meant hell, right? Because that's what I was referring to. Not execution or anything. And I'm taking my arguement from the Bible too. Honestly, I'm okay with you being shocked. I'm not G-d. I don't have the right to judge who is going to Heaven and who is going to hell. Personally, I find the thought of anyone going to Heaven who held such disgusting views that he did (later in his life), but that's just how I personally feel.

 

[johnd]

Going strictly by Law... everyone is going to hell.

It's always been about grace... seeking the mercy of the Law of God rather than the justice of the Law of Moses.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Now, Blahoye Cobaka, I do not expect you toss out your Star of David for a scroll because I quoted these verses...

BUT...

If keeping the Law of Moses was means of going to heaven... why was faith necessary (Abram's sojourn Genesis 12, 15, 22)? And why were sacrifices necessary (Exodus / Leviticus)? And how could Isaiah declare?

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.