Rabbis...

[anisavta]

I guess it is like in California - everything is in Spanish. People don't want to give up their native language and heritage.
Can you imagine in a non messianic synagogue having to read your Torah portion in Greek?

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

Anisavta, you're using the wrong example. A few examples of terms where I've seen Messianics artificially employ a Hebraic word/phrase instead of the original Greek/Roman/English word.

Jsus = Yshua
Hly Spirit = Ruach HaKodesh
New Testament = Brit Chadasha
Paul = Rav Sha'ul

Why do Messianics use these terms instead of the original, which might prevent confusion?

 

[anisavta]

I'm not following you. Please explain further.

 

[Blahoye Cobaka]

The words Jsus, Hly Spirit, New Testament, and the name Paul are commonly understood iterations of the word. However, it seems that the Messianics use those other words to replace them. Why?

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Greetings ContraMundum,

Here is a quote from Wikipedia on your belief system:
Arguably, the most influential of them has been Article VI on the sufficiency of Scripture, which states that Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation.

Where ever Scripture is mentioned as follows:
Until I come, give attention to reading of Scripture, to encouragement, to teaching.
(1Ti 4:13 The Scriptures 1998+)
But you, stay in what you have learned and trusted, having known from whom you have learned, and that from a babe you have known the Set-apart Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for deliverance through belief in Messiah יהושע. All Scripture is breathed by Elohim and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of Elohim might be fitted, equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:14-17 The Scriptures 1998+)
Tell me what this is refering to? Then I will tell you were much of the teachings you hold on to come from.

In orthodox, normative Christianity, the call to the presbytery is from God, tested by the Church (who also helps train the man called with the help of the Holy Spirit) and ratified by the church by ordination.

The Saviour Yeshua, founded the church, and thus gave it the mandate to exercise this authority of recognizing His call to the ministry among suitably qualified men. Just as the Father did so when He called Moishe and the elders of Israel to judge on such matters that concerned His people, so the NT church has such a call. The people of God continue in the ministry founded at the beginning.



Israel was a nation of priests, yet with a separate priesthood. Likewise, the Church. I could talk about this in a separate thread.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Some despise all things Greeek/Roman. They think that the Judaic terms are inherrently better because anything Greek/Roman MUST be influenced by paganism somehow... right?

*rolls eyes*

Maybe when you were MJ yourself you would cough up that answer yourself or have your already forgotten why those terms are used. But here I go. When those gentiles that were the main masses of Christianity formed and got together at the council of Nicea they didn't want anything to do with anything Jewish. Am I right? As a matter of fact they said that they didn't want anything similar to anything Jewish.
I reckon those today who are in MJ or a similar form don't want anything to do with any teachings of those who didn't include the Jewish thought on what should be in the Church doctrines they were forming under a Dictatorship.
So now we are here in the times of what many believe those times as written in the Tanahk when Man will become more intelligent, etc. Of course I can't think of where that is at this moment. So these times we are in are coming to the point where we will have a new Roman Empire as soon as one can be established under one world government, which will be once again a Dictatorship that will force all peoples to believe in what they deem good and right. The time when good is called evil and evil is called good.

Just my 2 cents,

Tag

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

I myself don't beleive the translated word Jsus is correct and that not all the New Testament is correct as well. I believe both Judaism and Christianity have removed the Name of The Father from their writtings, well not so the Jews though, just an addition where ever His Name is of Adonai. So as to speak that instead of His Name. But in The Bibles of the world his name was stricken from totally. I reckon those in MJ believe in the Hebrew form better then a Greekinized one. Don't you know of the Council of Nicea and other gatherings? Didn't they change the True Sabbath to another day and also the Feasts of The Father to something gentile? I understand many coming from Christianity carry with them those teachings like I see in most churches today carry teachings their forefathers have learned from forefathers all the way back to that time the Roman empire reinstated a church called Roman Catholism. The universal church. Where as over time there have been many to break away from this and form their own belief system but carry forward some of what was taught in that first formed church. I believe just like Israel after coming out of Egypt wanted to go back to The World perse as those just after the original Diciples died didn't really know the Torah and its teachings as the Jews did and only knew Gentile beliefs, many those of other nations not of Judah.

Anisavta, you're using the wrong example. A few examples of terms where I've seen Messianics artificially employ a Hebraic word/phrase instead of the original Greek/Roman/English word.

Jsus = Yshua
Hly Spirit = Ruach HaKodesh
New Testament = Brit Chadasha
Paul = Rav Sha'ul

Why do Messianics use these terms instead of the original, which might prevent confusion?

 

[stone]

The words Jsus, Hly Spirit, New Testament, and the name Paul are commonly understood iterations of the word. However, it seems that the Messianics use those other words to replace them. Why?

Because the mj rabbi's strive to be as Torah Observant as they possibly can?

 

[anisavta]

Anisavta, you're using the wrong example. A few examples of terms where I've seen Messianics artificially employ a Hebraic word/phrase instead of the original Greek/Roman/English word.

Jsus = Yshua
Hly Spirit = Ruach HaKodesh
New Testament = Brit Chadasha
Paul = Rav Sha'ul

Why do Messianics use these terms instead of the original, which might prevent confusion?

Again as I have said before in probably most threads - I can only speak for me. Hopefully more Messianic folk will speak up and answer for themselves.
I call Him Yeshua because:
~that's what His ima called Him.
~the name Yeshua means just what it means - salvation.
~Jesus is a hybrid of Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs) which is Greek and since I am Jewish I prefer my home tongue.
~Jesus is the name used by every religion and half the time their Jesus is sure not the Messiah. And I hear it used as an epitaph more than not. And when I see it in writing half the time it is some dude in East LA.
I say Ruach Hakodesh because that is what it means - holy breath or wind. When I hear Holy Ghost or Spirit I think spooky things in white sheets. And it goes back to that native tongue thing again.
Brit Chadasha means new covenant. And I have trouble with that distinction between the old testament (covenant) and new testament (covenant) anyway like there is suppose to be a blank piece of paper dividing Malachi from Matthew. There isn't BTW. I prefer Apostolic scripture and Tanakh.
And Sha'ul is the name his ima gave him. Paul is the Greek name (there's that native tongue thing again). Rav because being a teacher which is what rabbi means Sha'ul indeed taught and had a following whether he wanted it or not.

 

[simchat_torah]

People don't want to give up their native language and heritage.

That's just the thing, you've got it backwards. Gentiles are trying to replace their heritage with another, attempting to emulate Jews. If your statement were reflective of reality, then Gentiles would not want to give up their Grecko/Roman expression of faith. Instead, we see in MJ'ism this explicit need or desire to cast off anything relating to Grecko/Roman terminology, as if "Jewish/Hebrew" makes it inherrently better.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Your signature is poorly translated. If you're interested in why I think so, let me know. I don't want to waste my time on it if you're not.



It sounds an awful lot like you do subscribe to this belief, which is fine; most Chrstians do. It's misguided, and based on a trained aversion to and misrepresentations of Judaism.

Apparently, even the writers of the gospels portray your messiah as seeing the validity of the Rabbinic tradition and Oral Torah (Matthew 23:2-5).

4 Thus saith HaShem: For three transgressions of Judah, yea, for four, I will not reverse it: because they have rejected the law of HaShem, and have not kept His statutes, and their lies have caused them to err, after which their fathers did walk.
5 So will I send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
Is the above the correct translation or is it wrong as well?
I do believe Y'shua did quote some of the Oral Torah, granted I don't think he subscribed to all of it or all of the Traditions unless they did in fact apply to the Truth written in the Torah. Btw, isn't the Torah the one that contains The Father's Statutes and the Law?
I have wasted more time in my life chasing after truth then you think you are wasting on me. For sometimes I figured I knew the truth because of someone else saying it was truth. Guess the words I say are just blowing in the wind anyhow.
I notice where it says HaShem is were his name should be, but it has been replaced hasn't it now since by the Jews as well. I did some studies years ago and don't remember every fact. And being many things in this world are but from man's own pride it has been a hard path to find.
Tag

 

[visionary]

Which works out quite well for all concerned since Gentiles do not accept Oral Law
and there fore would have no need to observe shabbas as Jews do

I have no objection to not keeping the sabbath according the Jewish tradition, I have a concern with breakinging the sabbath according to God.

 

[ContraMundum]

Some despise all things Greeek/Roman. They think that the Judaic terms are inherrently better because anything Greek/Roman MUST be influenced by paganism somehow... right?

*rolls eyes*

Yep...you got it. Oddly enough, my experience as a Jewish man through my whole life does not agree with the attitude that everything Greek/Roman was/is evil. I never heard such a thing growing up or now (from other Jews) yet I hear it from Gentile Messianics on occasion. Odd, really.

 

[ContraMundum]

I guess it is like in California - everything is in Spanish. People don't want to give up their native language and heritage.

Well, considering that Spanish was in California well before English- maybe they shouldn't have to! Maybe the Anglos should speak Spanish.

Can you imagine in a non messianic synagogue having to read your Torah portion in Greek?

The scriptures should be preserved in their original language but spoken and read in a language understood by the listeners. The reason the Torah portion is read in Hebrew is that it has always been read in Hebrew, and accordingly we are taught Hebrew leading up to our Bar or bat mitzvah so we can read and hear it. If the congregation doesn't know Hebrew, it should be translated for them. This is why the LXX can into existance. It's ok to have the Torah read in Greek, according to Jewish tradition during the time of Yeshua. Anyway, some modern shuls have a translator reading as well, as I have heard (but never seen myself).

 

[ContraMundum]

Anisavta, you're using the wrong example. A few examples of terms where I've seen Messianics artificially employ a Hebraic word/phrase instead of the original Greek/Roman/English word.

Jsus = Yshua
Hly Spirit = Ruach HaKodesh
New Testament = Brit Chadasha
Paul = Rav Sha'ul

Good point. Very well said...there are dozens of other examples.

Why do Messianics use these terms instead of the original, which might prevent confusion?

Because it's trendy- it's a fad. It's not well thought out. Like saying "HaShem".

If an Israeli Christian used these terms, it would perhaps be natural, as Hebrew is his native tongue. However, for an English speaker to revert to Hebrew terms is just weird. The names of characters perhaps is ok. But really, it's unnecessary. God hears all tongues.

There's a "Messianic Siddur" kicking around out there that even has the Lord's Prayer in Hebrew, as well as NT readings. It is sold in America and is made by an American. So, we have the curious example of a prayer taught originally in Aramaic, recorded in Koine Greek, translated into Hebrew, and being read aloud by Gentile English speakers in some Messianic congregations somewhere. Talk about identity crisis.

The sad thing is one of the main points of the Christian Reformation was that the scriptures should be understood by all people- and thus should be read in the colloquial language of the people. All this switching of languages mid-sentence stuff merely serves to undermine that hard-won principle and create the facade of a "holy language" that God somehow loves more than any other tongue. It creates a false mystique. It's a return to a Babylonian/gnsotic idea of relligion and God.

 

[ContraMundum]

Greetings ContraMundum,

Here is a quote from Wikipedia on your belief system:
Arguably, the most influential of them has been Article VI on the sufficiency of Scripture, which states that Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation.

Where ever Scripture is mentioned as follows:
Until I come, give attention to reading of Scripture, to encouragement, to teaching.
(1Ti 4:13 The Scriptures 1998+)
But you, stay in what you have learned and trusted, having known from whom you have learned, and that from a babe you have known the Set-apart Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for deliverance through belief in Messiah יהושע. All Scripture is breathed by Elohim and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of Elohim might be fitted, equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:14-17 The Scriptures 1998+)
Tell me what this is refering to? Then I will tell you were much of the teachings you hold on to come from.

Shamash, we got the principles I outlined for you previously about ordination from scripture. That's why we believe as we do- it's scriptural. It's not from men, it's from scripture. Perhaps you've not noticed it before. Like I said, we could talk about it on another thread and I can show you where in scripture our beliefs come from.

 

[ContraMundum]

That's just the thing, you've got it backwards. Gentiles are trying to replace their heritage with another, attempting to emulate Jews. If your statement were reflective of reality, then Gentiles would not want to give up their Grecko/Roman expression of faith. Instead, we see in MJ'ism this explicit need or desire to cast off anything relating to Grecko/Roman terminology, as if "Jewish/Hebrew" makes it inherrently better.

Exactly. Well put. I'd also add that Jewish Christians that I know tend to use the Greek/Anglo terms when speaking to other Christians- we don't want to cause them to stumble. Occasionally I use "Yeshua" in a sermon or so, and I always refer to Greek and Hebrew terms when necessary- but the homily is always delivered so that people can readily understand it. That's the point of it all.

 

[anisavta]

Do Episcopalians use Latin in their liturgy? I know Catholics do. Is that different since no one knows Latin anymore?

 

[ContraMundum]

Do Episcopalians use Latin in their liturgy? I know Catholics do. Is that different since no one knows Latin anymore?

Christians in the Anglican tradition (Episcopalian in the US) stopped using Latin formally by 1549 (but it took a while to phase out). During this time homilies became important again too. Roman Catholics stopped using it after the Second Vatican Council but still may use it in some circumstances.

Latin is still useful for western inter-denominational and international theology, though. Like Biblical Hebrew and Greek, it is a dead language so it retains its original meaning.

 

[anisavta]

You know it just occurred to me - why is it such a big hairy deal? Is there somewhere in the Torah that says we must all speak to HaShem like Contra or anyone else? If you don't like saying Yeshua than don't. But why is it so important for me or someone else to use His Greek or actually His hybrid name? Are you telling me I'm wrong in using Hebrew instead of Greek? I guess we all have to be Episcopalians or Methodists or Baptists - but heaven forbid a gasp Messianic.
We argue about the most insignificant things don't we?