Quoting Calvin

[Rescued One]

can someone quote me the part where God forced satan to become evil?

i have a hard time understanding calvinism - grasping what they are saying - and the scriptural reasoning behind

it just doesn't register in my mind in a logical way - it seems scrambled an incomprehensible to me - i can't figure out what calvinism is saying - maybe i need the calvinism for dummies to get what calvinism is all about

i once attended a brethren church for a while and when a young 2 year old was acting up the father said - well God may have pre-destined him to hell

i was shocked by the words and the lack of concern

almost like - o well - he may be one of those who suffers an eternity in hell

i thought - where is the crying out to God for the saving of this little life - your own flesh and blood

i was immediately thanking God for my own father who cares very much what happens to me and has always petitioned God on my behalf when i was going astray

i've seen people turn around and go whole fire for God after prayer

it saddens me to think there are religious doctrines that teach people to turn away from those who are floundering in sin - they don't even attempt to snatch anyone from the fire to save them - contrary to what Jude 1:23 says

I don't think there are Brethren churches that follow Calvin's teachings. That father may have been referring to an inside joke.

 

[Rescued One]

appreciate the response you nailed it. I didn't realize calvinism was that extreme though in regards to how evil is set. Didn't realize they actually believe God caused Satan to rebel that's extreme.

There are many types of Calvinists. I haven't read or heard those statements by Calvin. So many people don't know more than what they hear in church and I doubt that those statements are read in anyone's church.

 

[amariselle]

Or not.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Calvinist that doesn't believe he/she is one of the chosen few "elect" while looking at most of the world as created by God specifically for damnation.

If they don't believe they know they are one of the "elect", how could that lead to anything but despair? After all, that would then lead to wondering if perhaps they are one of the majority of the earth's population God created only to destroy.

 

[Rescued One]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Calvinist that doesn't believe he/she is one of the chosen few "elect" while looking at most of the world as created by God specifically for damnation.

If they don't believe they know they are one of the "elect", how could that lead to anything but despair? After all, that would then lead to wondering if perhaps they are one of the majority of the earth's population God created only to destroy.

But how can you speak for Calvinists? People who aren't Calvinists don't believe what Calvinists do so how can they feel despair?

My four living siblings are atheists. Atheists don't feel despair about the afterlife. They don't believe there is one.

Wait a minute! Calvinists don't know who won't be saved!

Do you believe the wicked will be punished, annihilated, or saved?

 

[Rescued One]

Denying Calvinism is denying God- you deny His sovereignty for the sake of your vain 'free will'.

And that's why you all will always lose this debate

Oops!

 

[HighCherub]

 

[amariselle]

Denying Calvinism is denying God- you deny His sovereignty for the sake of your vain 'free will'.

And that's why you all will always lose this debate

Wow, now I'm denying God?! I guess that must mean I am one of the multitudes He created for eternal destruction.

As for free will, it's a fact. The Bible is clear people have free will and as such are held accountable for their choices. (Beginning in the Garden)

 

[amariselle]

Here is the Gospel, (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

That quote is simply (Edit) Spurgeon's opinion.

 

[amariselle]

But how can you speak for Calvinists? People who aren't Calvinists don't believe what Calvinists do so how can they feel despair?

My four living siblings are atheists. Atheists don't feel despair about the afterlife. They don't believe there is one.

Wait a minute! Calvinists don't know who won't be saved!

Do you believe the wicked will be punished, annihilated, or saved?

I actually do know what it's like to feel despair because you are looking for some evidence that you're one of the few that are saved.

I also know how heartbreaking it is to consider all the multitudes that might not be saved, knowing of course that the Bible says God desires that none should perish.

And yes, I believe in hell, but all those who believe on the Son (the will of the Father) and who are therefore in Christ Jesus and belong to Him, forever, will not be going there.

 

[AlexDTX]

You don't know why people embrace different teachings. But the ones who don't believe:

Nor do you know the depth of my friendship with them nor how much I know of their story. I am a better judge of my friends' situation than you are .

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Here is the Gospel, (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

That quote is simply (Edit) Spurgeon's opinion.

Calvinism is not synonymous with the gospel, Spurgeon's opinions aside. Teachings of men should *never* be treated as equivalent to the gospel, as if the gospel were contained in man's interpretation!
What are the doctrines of grace?


Actually, I Cor 15:1-4 has a couple things that might be difficult for the standard Calvinist TULIP teaching to explain:

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. " I Cor 15:1

3880 paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative.

Calvinists generally teach that such personal initiative is impossible in response to the gospel. Likewise, the 'standing' here refers to us standing firm, such as in Eph 6:4, yet many Calvinists also see that as an illusion; that it is the Spirit alone responsible for our standing firm.

"By this gospel you are also saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." I Cor 15:2

Katechó is to hold fast or take possession of, such as those who keep the word in Luke 8:15. It also holds the nautical analogy of keeping a ships heading, which recalls other verses about the importance of not drifting loose from the moorings or worse, making shipwreck (utter ruin) of one's faith such as in I Tim 1:19.

This verse seems to contradict the 'eternal security' of Calvinism and also points out the importance of man's steadfastness.

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve." I Cor 15:3-4

The conflict with Calvinism here is a bit more subtle, but found in Paul's description of the gospel which he had passed on that the Corinthians had received. "Christ died for our sins" - note he passed this on before they received it! He did not say, "Christ died for some select ones of you, and if you believe you know you are among them' but to them all said, Christ died for our sins!

 

[Hammster]

The conflict with Calvinism here is a bit more subtle, but found in Paul's description of the gospel which he had passed on that the Corinthians had received. "Christ died for our sins" - note he passed this on before they received it! He did not say, "Christ died for some select ones of you, and if you believe you know you are among them' but to them all said, Christ died for our sins!

If I stood in front of a congregation of believers and said that Christ died for our sins, would that be accurate?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If I stood in front of a congregation of believers and said that Christ died for our sins, would that be accurate?

It would be accurate if you defined who the "our" refers to. In the case of I Corinthians 15 Paul is obviously speaking directly to the Corinthian church and including himself.

 

[Hammster]

It would be accurate if you defined who the "our" refers to. In the case of I Corinthians 15 Paul is obviously speaking directly to the Corinthian church and including himself.

That's how they would have understood it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's how they would have understood it.

Then I see no problem, do you?

 

[amariselle]

Calvinism is not synonymous with the gospel, Spurgeon's opinions aside. Teachings of men should *never* be treated as equivalent to the gospel, as if the gospel were contained in man's interpretation!
What are the doctrines of grace?

Actually, I Cor 15:1-4 has a couple things that might be difficult for the standard Calvinist TULIP teaching to explain:

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. " I Cor 15:1

3880 paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative.

Calvinists generally teach that such personal initiative is impossible in response to the gospel. Likewise, the 'standing' here refers to us standing firm, such as in Eph 6:4, yet many Calvinists also see that as an illusion; that it is the Spirit alone responsible for our standing firm.

"By this gospel you are also saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." I Cor 15:2

Katechó is to hold fast or take possession of, such as those who keep the word in Luke 8:15. It also holds the nautical analogy of keeping a ships heading, which recalls other verses about the importance of not drifting loose from the moorings or worse, making shipwreck (utter ruin) of one's faith such as in I Tim 1:19.

This verse seems to contradict the 'eternal security' of Calvinism and also points out the importance of man's steadfastness.

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve." I Cor 15:3-4

The conflict with Calvinism here is a bit more subtle, but found in Paul's description of the gospel which he had passed on that the Corinthians had received. "Christ died for our sins" - note he passed this on before they received it! He did not say, "Christ died for some select ones of you, and if you believe you know you are among them' but to them all said, Christ died for our sins!

Thanks for your comment. I agree with the issues you presented, except those concerning "eternal security." I think the Bible is clear that once we are saved by God, we are likewise kept saved by Him. (We have been born again, passed from death to life, and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.)

Here are some verses to consider:

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. - Hebrews 7:24-25

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:1-2

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. - 2 Timothy 2:13

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ... - Philippians 1:6

I truly believe that just as we can do nothing to merit being saved, we likewise can do nothing to remain saved. Salvation is an event, a new birth, just as our physical birth is likewise an event. We know that no one can be "unborn" physically, so how much less so can we be "unborn" spiritually?

This is a work of God when we come to Him in faith (doing the will of the Father and believing on the Son).

 

[Hammster]

Then I see no problem, do you?

The problem is when folks make it sound like Paul recounting giving them the message when he was evangelizing. It changes the meaning.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The problem is when folks make it sound like Paul recounting giving them the message when he was evangelizing. It changes the meaning.

Quite true.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Thanks for your comment. I agree with the issues you presented, except those concerning "eternal security." I think the Bible is clear that once we are saved by God, we are likewise kept saved by Him. (We have been born again, passed from death to life, and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.)

Here are some verses to consider:

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. - Hebrews 7:24-25

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:1-2

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. - 2 Timothy 2:13

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ... - Philippians 1:6

I truly believe that just as we can do nothing to merit being saved, we likewise can do nothing to remain saved. Salvation is an event, a new birth, just as our physical birth is likewise an event. We know that no one can be "unborn" physically, so how much less so can we be "unborn" spiritually?

This is a work of God when we come to Him in faith (doing the will of the Father and believing on the Son).

None of those verses actually mandate the Calvinist theory of eternal security.

Eph 1:13-14

The seal of the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee to believers - it doesn't force believers to remain in the covenant contract, but rather shows God's ownership, His guarantee of promises to those remaining in the contract, and protection from outside tampering.
What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit as earnest payment (like a down payment or engagement ring) is also not a guarantee that someone who begins in faith will end in faith. Just like a women can reject an engagement she agreed to (but have to return the ring), the earnest payment is God's guarantee that the rest of the payment will be given in future. However, the caveat in the passage is that this future payment is only due to 'God's possession.' If someone exits the contract by rejecting faith, he can't claim the redemption of the rest of the promises in future. It's somewhat similar to how Esau could not reclaim his birthright once he had sold it, or how a woman can't claim the future benefits of marriage if she rejects the engagement she once accepted. The earnest payment is a sign of God's faithfulness to us - not a mandate of our faithfulness to Him.
Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?


24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. - Hebrews 7:24-25

This verse, in context, is about how Christ is able to completely save those who come to Him, unlike an animal sacrifice that could never fully atone for sins or the mortal High priests who had to annually come before God.

"For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever." Heb 7:28

Also, note that this forever salvation is not for those who drew near at one point in the past, but those who draw near as an ongoing action in the present. This fits well with the verb tenses of John 3:16 as well. Those who believe (continuously) are the ones who hold (continuously) salvation. Salvation begins from the first moment of faith, we continue to hold it as we continue in faith, and salvation is finally fulfilled with all the promises of God at the future judgment for those who end in faith. Jesus has no lack of ability to save or raise believers, and He is the perfect High priest.

It is only God's will that Christ raises, in future, those who look (Continuously) and believe (Continuously) in Christ. Jn 6:38-40.

What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith?

I John 1:1-2 is about Jesus as the intercessor for believers who sin, and about how He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for everyone's sins. Those who reject faith are not just sinning - they are returning to slavery to sin and rejecting Christ as their intercessor. (II Pet 2:20-22, Heb 10:26, etc.)
What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

2 Timothy 2:13 also does not teach eternal security. Indeed II Tim 2:12 shows quite the opposite.

"Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself." II Tim 2:11-13

Verse twelve says that "if we endure, we will also reign", but "if we deny Him He will deny us."

If someone begins in faith, but later repudiates that faith, they will be denied as if Christ 'never knew them' before the Father. It is only those who endure in faith who will reign with Him.

In verse 13, the verse speaks of God's faithfulness. What faithfulness? To His own self and character. God 'can not deny Himself' - even if an unbeliever or former believer has unbelief, that doesn't change God's promises nor who He is. As such, God *cannot* break His own promises and raise an unbeliever, for that would be denying His own promises and character.


"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ..." - Philippians 1:6

Paul is praising the Philippians for their active participation in the gospel, and expressing his own personal confidence that God will continue working in them. The 'good work' in us is the work of the Spirit in renewing our mind and helping us put to death the deeds of the flesh as we walk in Christ, and the equipping of the believer by the Spirit for every good work (II Tim 3:17.)

We get more explanation from Phil 2:13 "Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, or it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

And in Col 1:9-14: "For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified youf to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

II Tim 2:20-21, II PEt 1:3-11, II Cor 4:7-18, and many other passages speak to this work of God inside us as well.

Etc. These passages are about God equipping us for every good work, His Spirit working in believers until the day of redemption. None of them are about God forcing us to continue in faith, forcing us to submit to Him, etc. That God equips us as we walk with Him and gives us everything we need for life, godliness, growth, endurance, etc. doesn't logically mandate that we continue to walk with Him. It does mean that those who reject faith have no excuse - they can't claim God did not give them what they needed or do enough for them.

None of those passages mandate eternal security, nor do they contradict the many explicit scripture passages that speak of individuals falling away/rejecting faith, the possibility that believers can fail to endure in faith, the warnings that we need to hold fast in faith, etc.

What is the underlying Greek word used for translating "falling away" in the NKJV & "departure" in the WEB?
What is 'perseverance of the saints' and is it biblical?
Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?

 

[bbbbbbb]

None of those verses actually mandate the Calvinist theory of eternal security.

Eph 1:13-14

The seal of the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee to believers - it doesn't force believers to remain in the covenant contract, but rather shows God's ownership, His guarantee of promises to those remaining in the contract, and protection from outside tampering.
What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit as earnest payment (like a down payment or engagement ring) is also not a guarantee that someone who begins in faith will end in faith. Just like a women can reject an engagement she agreed to (but have to return the ring), the earnest payment is God's guarantee that the rest of the payment will be given in future. However, the caveat in the passage is that this future payment is only due to 'God's possession.' If someone exits the contract by rejecting faith, he can't claim the redemption of the rest of the promises in future. It's somewhat similar to how Esau could not reclaim his birthright once he had sold it, or how a woman can't claim the future benefits of marriage if she rejects the engagement she once accepted. The earnest payment is a sign of God's faithfulness to us - not a mandate of our faithfulness to Him.
Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?


24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. - Hebrews 7:24-25

This verse, in context, is about how Christ is able to completely save those who come to Him, unlike an animal sacrifice that could never fully atone for sins or the mortal High priests who had to annually come before God.

"For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever." Heb 7:28

Also, note that this forever salvation is not for those who drew near at one point in the past, but those who draw near as an ongoing action in the present. This fits well with the verb tenses of John 3:16 as well. Those who believe (continuously) are the ones who hold (continuously) salvation. Salvation begins from the first moment of faith, we continue to hold it as we continue in faith, and salvation is finally fulfilled with all the promises of God at the future judgment for those who end in faith. Jesus has no lack of ability to save or raise believers, and He is the perfect High priest.

It is only God's will that Christ raises, in future, those who look (Continuously) and believe (Continuously) in Christ. Jn 6:38-40.

What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith?

I John 1:1-2 is about Jesus as the intercessor for believers who sin, and about how He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for everyone's sins. Those who reject faith are not just sinning - they are returning to slavery to sin and rejecting Christ as their intercessor. (II Pet 2:20-22, Heb 10:26, etc.)
What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

2 Timothy 2:13 also does not teach eternal security. Indeed II Tim 2:12 shows quite the opposite.

"Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself." II Tim 2:11-13

Verse twelve says that "if we endure, we will also reign", but "if we deny Him He will deny us."

If someone begins in faith, but later repudiates that faith, they will be denied as if Christ 'never knew them' before the Father. It is only those who endure in faith who will reign with Him.

In verse 13, the verse speaks of God's faithfulness. What faithfulness? To His own self and character. God 'can not deny Himself' - even if an unbeliever or former believer has unbelief, that doesn't change God's promises nor who He is. As such, God *cannot* break His own promises and raise an unbeliever, for that would be denying His own promises and character.


"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ..." - Philippians 1:6

Paul is praising the Philippians for their active participation in the gospel, and expressing his own personal confidence that God will continue working in them. The 'good work' in us is the work of the Spirit in renewing our mind and helping us put to death the deeds of the flesh as we walk in Christ, and the equipping of the believer by the Spirit for every good work (II Tim 3:17.)

We get more explanation from Phil 2:13 "Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, or it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

And in Col 1:9-14: "For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified youf to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

II Tim 2:20-21, II PEt 1:3-11, II Cor 4:7-18, and many other passages speak to this work of God inside us as well.

Etc. These passages are about God equipping us for every good work, His Spirit working in believers until the day of redemption. None of them are about God forcing us to continue in faith, forcing us to submit to Him, etc. That God equips us as we walk with Him and gives us everything we need for life, godliness, growth, endurance, etc. doesn't logically mandate that we continue to walk with Him. It does mean that those who reject faith have no excuse - they can't claim God did not give them what they needed or do enough for them.

None of those passages mandate eternal security, nor do they contradict the many explicit scripture passages that speak of individuals falling away/rejecting faith, the possibility that believers can fail to endure in faith, the warnings that we need to hold fast in faith, etc.

What is the underlying Greek word used for translating "falling away" in the NKJV & "departure" in the WEB?
What is 'perseverance of the saints' and is it biblical?
Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?

This sort of post bemuses me. You operate under the assumption that there is a "Calvinist theory of eternal security". The doctrine of the eternal security of the believer may seem to be closely related to Calvinism, but it is not in reality. Calvinism clearly teaches the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. This means that the elect will persevere in their faith to the end. This is a clear indication of their election. This doctrine does not teach that any person who claims to be a Christian, but does not persevere in the faith, is actually saved.