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Quiz: Are you Calvinist or Arminian?

9Rock9

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Can anyone please point out for me anywhere in Calvin's writings in which he explicitly taught the doctrine of limited atonement?

I don't think he did. Iirc, limited atonement came about later after Calvin's death.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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I don't think he did. Iirc, limited atonement came about later after Calvin's death.

This would mean that John Calvin was not a Calvinist, at least not according to how the term is understood today.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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This should lay to rest any doubt that John Calvin taught unlimited atonement:

 
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9Rock9

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This would mean that John Calvin was not a Calvinist, at least not according to how the term is understood today.

There are four point Calvinists. Granted, he wouldn't want any aspect of theology named after him.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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There are four point Calvinists. Granted, he wouldn't want any aspect of theology named after him.

I admire John Calvin but I don't particularly like Calvinism. If Protestants believe in Scripture alone and Christ alone, it doesn't seem right to call oneself a Calvinist.

1 Corinthians 3
4
For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, I believe that Christ's death was enough for all sins you commit: past, present and future.

True.. True for "our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

Our ordination is a gift from God. We cannot earn it. We all deserve eternal damnation, yet God is merciful.

But God does not arbitrarily pick one vs another - rather He supernaturally "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment. John 16.

God is "not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" - 2 Peter 3

God "came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

"God is not partial" Rom 2:11

So the fact that only "the few" of Matt 7 make it to heaven is not an act of God stopping them or not caring for them or not dying for them or not drawing them.

The much-ignored verse of Isaiah 5:4 comes to mind

"What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"
 
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hedrick

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I found many of the alternatives omitted things that I would have preferred to choose. I also don't think it captures the actual differences between Calvin and Arminius, though maybe it gets many current Calvinists and Arminians. Arminius was much nearer Calvin, and has been noted, Calvin was at most a 4-point Calvinist.

Arminius agreed with Calvin that we are incapable of responding to God on our own. He agreed with Calvin that God enables us to do so by grace. I think Calvin would even agree that God gave everyone grace. But Calvin would say that he didn't give everyone enough grace to actually be effective, and this was by his choice. Arminius wanted to place more responsibility on the individual as to whether grace was effective.

If Calvin and Arminius are the choices, it isn't useful for people who doubt that basic Augustinian concept that everyone starts out damned. (Or the modern version that infants start out saved, but at some point it reverses and everyone id damned unless they do or believe the right thing.) Is there a way to challenge that without being Pelagian? I think there is. I think we can adopt Jesus' concept of God as like a father. Kids don't start our rejected by their parents and need to do something to be accepted. Parents love their children. Their children can reject them. They can also do things for which they need to be held accountable.

When I started thinking like that I wondered if I was being Pelagian. There aren't a lot of works by Pelagius or his close followers left. But I read what I could. I think Pelagius really did downplay God's grace too much. He thought you needed to live right to be saved, and didn't see God's grace as very important to that. So I think you can accuse him of requiring us to earn salvation mostly on our own. I think God's grace is critical. But I place it earlier. I think his grace shows in that he loves everyone. As noted, that doesn't mean that people can't reject him or need discipline. But I don't think we need to do anything to be accepted by God.
 
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hedrick

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I think it is impossible to avoid some level of Calvinism, if we think God has any level of control. Depending upon whether you accept omnipotence or something like open theology, God is either fully in control of history or nudged us in a direction that led to the development of humanity as we know it. Whether his plan included the specific identities of those who are lost or whether he simply knew that some would be, the responsibility is there.

Indeed that’s what Calvin says. He starts the section on predestination in the Institutes by saying the following: “The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception. This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without doubt subordinate to God’s purpose of eternal election. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination.”

He is not starting from some concept of God's glory, and saying that he glories in some people's destruction. He's saying that we observe that some are saved and some are damned, and this has to be the result of God's plan. (There is a famous quote that does invoke God's glory, but I'm not sure it means what most peole think it does.)

Just what this says about God’s character depends to some extent upon what you think happens in judgement. Are some people tortured forever or are they destroyed or ultimately saved? Is it 90% of the human race or a few people who developed into monsters?

It also depends upon what we think God’s intent was. Did he arbitrarily pick some people and make sure that their character and environment developed in a way that guarantee that they were damned? Did he set things up so that people had to make real decisions, and that made it inevitable that some people were damned?

The distinction between predestination and foreknowledge isn't so clear for an omnipotent being. If when you make a decision you immediately know what the consequences are, then in choosing a decision you also choose the consequences. So in a standard model of God's nature, I don't think you can say he elected based on foreknowledge.

That's assuming he is omniscient. If not, things are more complex. But not complex enough for God to avoid responsibility for some people being subject to damnation, although under the weakest assumptions about God's power and foresight one could conceivably claim that he doesn't know specifically which people it's going to be.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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The central theme of Calvin's writings was not predestination or limited atonement but God's grace, and I believe that those who claim to be Calvin's followers neglect this theme when they act ungracious to anyone who disagrees with their soteriology.
 
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hedrick

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There are several views on that. Another view is that his central concept is what he calls our mystical union with Christ. I think you can make a good argument that this is what Paul meant by faith, or at least was the most important thing that faith led to. Predestination wasn’t even in the first edition of the Institutes. This is part of why there can be liberals who admire Calvin. I hesitate to say Calvinists, because that term has come to mean believers in TULIP.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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I just re-took the test and it says I am a Calvinist. I guess I am not against Calvinism perse, I am simply against the doctrine of limited atonement, especially since it appears that Calvin himself never taught it. Perhaps, then, I am a four-point Calvinist.

The passage of scripture most supportive of Calvinism seems to be Romans 9:

 
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Humble_Disciple

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The most important concept of John Calvin's theology is God's grace, that our election unto salvation is completely the unmerited gift of God.

If you truly believe yourself to be among God's elect, then your attitude should be that of thankfulness and humility, with a desire to serve God the rest of your life, no matter how many times you might fail.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Calvinist - Arminian = Lutheran

I don't know what you mean.

Martin Luther, like John Calvin, taught total depravity and unconditional election. This is from Luther's 97 Theses, which he wrote before the 95 Theses:

 
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Humble_Disciple

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This article explains how I am feeling right now:


Rather than boastful, I am humbled that God has chosen me unto salvation due to no merit of my own. It makes me want to live in such as a way as to show gratitude to Him for His unmerited favor.

It also gives me assurance of my salvation, knowing that my election is not something that I've earned, and that God will preserve me in faith and keep me from permanently falling away.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Augustine and Luther interpreted Romans 9 in the same way that Calvinists do today:

 
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Neostarwcc

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I don't think he did. Iirc, limited atonement came about later after Calvin's death.

Have you ever read Calvin's Institutes? Protestants came up with T.U.L.I.P from his Institutes.

So yes, Calvin believed in Limited Atonement, predestination ...etc. He talked about all of it a lot in his Institutes and when he preached in Geneva.

I've heard several of Calvin's sermons (Not live obviously, he died nearly 500 years ago) and would suggest even if you are an Arminian to hear the man speak. He was a fantastic Theologian and quite arguably the greatest of all time.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I don't know what you mean.

Martin Luther, like John Calvin, taught total depravity and unconditional election. This is from Luther's 97 Theses, which he wrote before the 95 Theses:

Naturally. There's also Luther's book "Bondage of the Will" I recommend picking it up and reading it. You would have sworn Calvin wrote the book but it was in fact, written by Luther.
 
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Tigger45

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Because confessional Lutheran teaches the bandage of the will which fits on the Calvinists side and also that one can shipwreck one's faith like on the Arminian side.
I don't know what you mean.

Martin Luther, like John Calvin, taught total depravity and unconditional election. This is from Luther's 97 Theses, which he wrote before the 95 Theses:
 
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