questions

[Blackhawk]

I hope this is the right forum to ask this. I am not a member of an Orthodox church. However I have read some of Gregory of Nazianzus' and Athansius' works and enjoyed them immensely. For information purposes only (No debate) I would like a simple (as can be) explanation of the Orthodox view of justification and sanctification. Also if someone can explain what the deification of man means I would be grateful. I have my own thoughts on this one due to my readings but I do not know if I am on the right track.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION: ONE DIVINE ACTION

...By this time it will be abundantly clear that, when we Orthodox speak about salvation, we do not have in view any sharp differentiation between justification and sanctification. Indeed, Orthodox usually have little to say about justification as a distinct topic; I note, for example, that in my own work The Orthodox Church, written thirty years ago, the word "justification" does not appear in the index, although this was not a deliberate omission. Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification together, just as St. Paul does in 1 Cor. 6:11: "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God". The reference to justification in the opening chapters of Romans (for example 3:20, 24, 28), we understand in the light of Romans 6: 4-10, which describe our radical incorporation though baptism into Christ¡'s death, burial and resurrection. Salvation, as already stated, is not a single event in our past life but an ongoing process of growth in Christ. It is not simply to turn our face in the right direction and to take the first step in our journey, but it is to continue walking until by God's grace we attain our journey's end. We Orthodox, then, "see 'justification' and 'sanctification' as one divine action...one continuous process", to use the words of the Common Statement issued by the Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue in North America. As Bishop Maiximos Aghiorgoussis says:
Justification is not a separate act of God but the negative aspect of salvation in Christ, which is freedom from sin, death and the devil; whereas sanctification is the positive aspect of God's saving act, that of spiritual growth in new life in Christ communicated by God's Holy Spirit.
The two aspects, negative and positive, form a single undivided reality.

 

[Marjorie]

Welcome to TAW, Blackhawk!!!

http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm

The above article may be of help to you.

God bless you!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Patristic]

One interesting thing to note. The Greek verb dikaioo, which is the verb for justification has a possible translation, to make just. I learned this when I asked my undergraduate Greek teacher this very question. Greek verbs ending with the suffix oo usually mean to make that thing happen. For instance the Greek verb dnloo means to make manifest. Therefore, justification is the beginning of the process of making one righteous and sanctification is the continuation of that process. All of this could be classified as theosis.

 

[countrymouse33ad]

Hi Blackhawk, and welcome to TAW.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Thanks for the insightful question Blackhawk. I'm enjoying this thread

John

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Welcome, Blackhawk.

I converted to Orthodoxy two years ago, after having been a Baptist all my life. Before actually converting, I was searching for about a year and a half. I know for me that concepts did not always "click" when someone first explained them, as Orthodoxy is so different from Protestantism. Please feel free to ask for whatever clarification you may need.

LK

 

[Philip]

Great article, Marjorie. Thanks.

 

[Blackhawk]

Welcome to TAW, Blackhawk!!!

http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm

The above article may be of help to you.

God bless you!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Great article. I actually sent the link to a friend of mine. We were discussing this a few days ago and it should help him also.

okay so let me throw this out and see if it is anywhere near the target.

So everyone agrees that mankind needs to be brought back into union with God that it has lost. However the orthodox church (now on the OC and no I do not watch the TV show) does not view mankind as to having lost it all and thus mankind is not totally depraved. Mankind has the image of God but not the likeness of God. (are those the right terms?) Jesus made it possible, by becoming a man, for us to have the likeness of God. So justification is the healing of our nature by Jesus coming down and being human. Santification then is something like the continual process of making our natures more and more like Christs. And then glorification would be the end of it all when we become fully like Him. This I think is shown in the term the deification of man. Thus the deification of man is that we acheive full union with Him by our nature being fully like His. We become incorruptible like He is instead of being corruptible like man is.

I know I probably missed much in the above paragraph but please insert whatever I missed and correct any mistakes. Also know that I am from the Western Chruch so that I possibly phrased somethings in Western language because that is the language I am used to using.

I do have another question. It is about this quote from the link.

"However, the Fall is not the primary reason for the incarnation itself since, as Maximos and others point out, the incarnation was always part of God’s plan since it was the means by which humanity could truly achieve salvation, understood as theosis or union with God, an approach which will be discussed in more detail in the following section."

Does this mean that even if mankind did not sin that Jesus would of become incarnate? Note though I am not making God's plan contingent on man. I am just making a hypothetical here.

 

[Blackhawk]

Thank you all for your openness and encouraging warmth. I probably will not convert but I do think that the Western church can learn a lot from y'all. I do really like what I am hearing as the Eastern view of salvation and I think a combination of Eastern and Western views is closer ot the truth then each side alone.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Thanks for the questions Blackhawk. Great thread. I have some thoughts... but I think others may actually have some quotes/references etc to back up their "thoughts" Anyway, I will be eagerly following this page.

John

 

[jkotinek]

So everyone agrees that mankind needs to be brought back into union with God that it has lost. However the orthodox church (now on the OC and no I do not watch the TV show) does not view mankind as to having lost it all and thus mankind is not totally depraved. Mankind has the image of God but not the likeness of God. (are those the right terms?) Jesus made it possible, by becoming a man, for us to have the likeness of God. So justification is the healing of our nature by Jesus coming down and being human. Santification then is something like the continual process of making our natures more and more like Christs. And then glorification would be the end of it all when we become fully like Him. This I think is shown in the term the deification of man. Thus the deification of man is that we acheive full union with Him by our nature being fully like His. We become incorruptible like He is instead of being corruptible like man is.

I know I probably missed much in the above paragraph

No, I don't think you did. <smile>

Does this mean that even if mankind did not sin that Jesus would of become incarnate? Note though I am not making God's plan contingent on man. I am just making a hypothetical here.

This has been postualted by several theologians (note, it's not dogmatic...in fact there's not a whole lot that we do dogmatically); the above postulation would be the logical extension of our understanding of the Trinity as perfect love...which love made our creation as persons necessary, so that we could be in communion with Him.

I'm happy that you have found and incorporated Patristic writings into your theological study. Someone else will probably remember who actually said this, but to paraphrase a bit, we understand that to the extent that Protestant theology apprehends the Apostolic faith, it is Orthodox. I know you aern't looking for a debate and I'll not engage in one, but in regards to your post regarding conversion I would offer a word. It has been my experience, and that of others that I've spoken with that Orthodox theology is incredibly cohesive and since our theology necessitates our form of worship (lex orandi lex credendi), you might reach a point where the question of conversion might not so easily be dismissed. I encourage you to think about how comprehensively the Orthodox faith serves as an explanatory model for your physical and spiritual experience.

God Bless.

Forgive me, a sinner.

 

[Blackhawk]

This has been postualted by several theologians (note, it's not dogmatic...in fact there's not a whole lot that we do dogmatically); the above postulation would be the logical extension of our understanding of the Trinity as perfect love...which love made our creation as persons necessary, so that we could be in communion with Him.

Okay. To be honest I do not know what to think. It seems right to me to say that A & E would of still grown in their relationship to God in one way but not in another. I will have to think about it and do some studying when I get the time. When I get the time!

I'm happy that you have found and incorporated Patristic writings into your theological study. Someone else will probably remember who actually said this, but to paraphrase a bit, we understand that to the extent that Protestant theology apprehends the Apostolic faith, it is Orthodox. I know you aern't looking for a debate and I'll not engage in one, but in regards to your post regarding conversion I would offer a word. It has been my experience, and that of others that I've spoken with that Orthodox theology is incredibly cohesive and since our theology necessitates our form of worship (lex orandi lex credendi), you might reach a point where the question of conversion might not so easily be dismissed. I encourage you to think about how comprehensively the Orthodox faith serves as an explanatory model for your physical and spiritual experience.

God Bless.

Forgive me, a sinner.

Truly know that I have not completely dismished the Orthodox tradition. Maybe one day I will convert but right now some of its teachings conflict with what I believe is right. But I always look at my beliefs and try to do so fairly and without improper predjudice for one view or another. I respect the orthodox tradition and most of my Orthodox brothers and sisters in the faith.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Truly know that I have not completely dismished the Orthodox tradition. Maybe one day I will convert but right now some of its teachings conflict with what I believe is right. But I always look at my beliefs and try to do so fairly and without improper predjudice for one view or another. I respect the orthodox tradition and most of my Orthodox brothers and sisters in the faith.

And, as I'm sure you understand already, there certainly no pressure from us here at TAW for you to convert. That is a very personal issue. I'm glad you recieved Jkotinek's words of wisdom (to just not shut the door on Orthodoxy as a future "option"... for lack of a better word) so well and as non-threatening for that was certainly his intention (correct me if I speak out of place Jkotinek )

John

 

[Blackhawk]

And, as I'm sure you understand already, there certainly no pressure from us here at TAW for you to convert. That is a very personal issue. I'm glad you recieved Jkotinek's words of wisdom (to just not shut the door on Orthodoxy as a future "option"... for lack of a better word) so well and as non-threatening for that was certainly his intention (correct me if I speak out of place Jkotinek )

John

Okay. I do not feel any pressure. Also I try not and I am not here going to think that anyone's intentions are anything but honorable and good natured until I have a reason to think otherwise. We are all brothers and sisters and need not quarrell when we discuss our Lord and His ways.

 

[Blackhawk]

Orthodox theology is incredibly cohesive and since our theology necessitates our form of worship (lex orandi lex credendi)

Is it true that the Orthodox tradition puts a high emphasis on the human nature of Christ because it is our example. That our end is to be like Jesus was as He was the prototype human. I know the OC also puts much emphasis on the deity of Christ also but does the high emphasis on the humanity of Jesus and that we are to be deified make it so that y'all use icons? That the icons represent Jesus as He was as a human and thus where we are to become as a human. I could be way off here but this was just a thought of mine.

 

[Marjorie]

As a side note, Orthodox Christians generally consider the best 'teacher' of Orthodox theology to be the experience of Orthodox worship, so even if you were dead set against conversion I would recommend you to visit a Divine Liturgy sometime to better understand the faith.

And yes, the general Orthodox opinion that I have encountered is that the Incarnation is not only a solution but God's original and perfect plan for His creation. The problem with Adam and Eve is that they attempted to 'be gods' in their own right, not receive from God all His divinity from Him and for Him and for all of Creation. The original sin is the objectification of nature, the individualization of it, the making of the "I" the focal point of existence. And so the cure for all things is to approach the world with humility, self-sacrifice, and love, so that we may again enter into the living communion, the feast of the Tree of Life prepared for us from the foundation of the world, not just "for me," but "for the life of the world and its salvation."

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Blackhawk]

As a side note, Orthodox Christians generally consider the best 'teacher' of Orthodox theology to be the experience of Orthodox worship, so even if you were dead set against conversion I would recommend you to visit a Divine Liturgy sometime to better understand the faith.

I will have to look for an Orthodox church in the Ft Worth area. Is there anything I should know before attending? Any special dress code or something else that would make it so I do not interuprt worship and also get the most from it myself as I worship God.

And yes, the general Orthodox opinion that I have encountered is that the Incarnation is not only a solution but God's original and perfect plan for His creation. The problem with Adam and Eve is that they attempted to 'be gods' in their own right, not receive from God all His divinity from Him and for Him and for all of Creation. The original sin is the objectification of nature, the individualization of it, the making of the "I" the focal point of existence. And so the cure for all things is to approach the world with humility, self-sacrifice, and love, so that we may again enter into the living communion, the feast of the Tree of Life prepared for us from the foundation of the world, not just "for me," but "for the life of the world and its salvation."

In IC XC,
Marjorie

This makes a lot of sense to me. I think it demonstrates a side of salvation that is often not thought of in the circles that I participate in.

 

[Marjorie]

I will have to look for an Orthodox church in the Ft Worth area. Is there anything I should know before attending? Any special dress code or something else that would make it so I do not interuprt worship and also get the most from it myself as I worship God.

Here are some Ft. Worth churches:

http://www.stdemetrios.tx.goarch.org/ (Greek Orthodox church)
http://oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-SO-FWASBM (OCA mission)
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/ (Antiochian church-- this is a Western Rite parish, which are pretty rare... these parishes are more like Western worship that you are more familiar with, but the theology is the same, and they are in communion with the rest of the Church.)

And as for what you need to know, we here are all eternally grateful to Khouria (the title for a wife of an Antiochian priest) Frederica Mathewes-Green for writing this article which we give to EVERYONE haha: http://www.antiochian.org/theology/first_visit.htm

No special dress code, just try to dress modestly and respectfully as much as possible. But people will be more concerned with worshiping God, I think.

Hope this helps!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[jkotinek]

John-

Thank you, you did apprehend my post correctly.

Is it true that the Orthodox tradition puts a high emphasis on the human nature of Christ because it is our example. That our end is to be like Jesus was as He was the prototype human.

Our Non-Chalcedonian brethren might certainly think so , but no...for us, Christ's two natures exist in hypostasic union; they are who Christ is, and cannot be undone from one another.

I know the OC also puts much emphasis on the deity of Christ also but does the high emphasis on the humanity of Jesus and that we are to be deified make it so that y'all use icons? That the icons represent Jesus as He was as a human and thus where we are to become as a human. I could be way off here but this was just a thought of mine.

To quote St. John of Damascus, we use icons because:

Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God's body is God by union, it is immutable. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul.

...because the immortal and immaterial God was pleased to become visible matter for the sake of our salvation, it behooves us to recall the true image of God...