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linux.poet

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Rest assured, regarding our beliefs, they’re very Orthodox. But seriously, they can be summarized with the Nicene Creed which we call the Symbol of Faith and regard as being particularly important (and unlike Western churches we use it exclusively,
I am confident then that we are worshiping the same God, who is able to guide and heal the mind that He has created. The creed is less important to my church as the beliefs expressed within the creed; we emphasize Scripture and use key verses to present the Gospel. It is a good summary of our beliefs though.

I do not think someone would conclude that God is like their dysfunctional father from the Nicene creed itself; it seems more likely to me that they would get such an idea from Proverbs 13:24 and Hebrews 12:5-7. But I have been trained all my life in Scripture studying and memorization, so what do I know? Other sources within the Orthodox Church might be the reinforcement for OP’s feelings, and other sources within the Orthodox Church could be used to show that God is not like a dysfunctional human father. I think you all are sorting this out well enough on your own. I was thinking that teaching from the church fathers on parenting could lead someone to feel this way, but others have mentioned Saint stories as sources of feelings of not measuring up and you quoted a saint to help. I have confidence that the Lord will continue to guide you.

I would avoid catastrophizing though; the OP said that he was feeling that God was out to punish him the way his father did. I would not make the assumption that is trauma. Trauma is a specific mental illness where the mind finds the reality of a fallen world too difficult to accept. It makes it difficult to function in day-to-day life. I went through that myself and I know what that is like.
 
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(WARNING: On several levels, this will be painful to read, and you will be horrified at how screwed up my thinking is. But in order to understand what a dysfunctional person goes through and the struggles we have in our relationship to our heavenly Father, I wrote this piece. IT IS NOT CORRECT THINKING AT ALL!! It is just me telling the world of my particular problems)

What is the Ladder of Divine Ascent? What are the Ariel Toll Houses?

(I will readily admit to being Protestant in my thinking because I am Protestant. I do not view my religion as an addiction; it has not soothed my pain with no remedy but either solved it for good or made it worse; it was the light of truth that my father did not want to see.)
 
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What is the Ladder of Divine Ascent? What are the Ariel Toll Houses?

(I will readily admit to being Protestant in my thinking because I am Protestant. I do not view my religion as an addiction; it has not soothed my pain with no remedy but either solved it for good or made it worse; it was the light of truth that my father did not want to see.)

Arial toll houses are a common theologoumemnon (qualified theological opinion) which some regard as doctrine, but which some others strongly oppose, but which is generally regarded as spiritually accurate, although some regard it as literally accurate, which dates from the Patristic era, from the very early church, and which is described in the book by Fr. Seraphim Rose, “The State of the Soul After Death.” I suspect Purgatory was an attempt to water down this doctrine and make it less frightening, but with the result actually being more depressing and frightening (the Orthodox do not believe that there are poor souls in Purgatory who are forgotten about who are stuck there until the laity perform acts of virtue to obtain indulgences to free them, and I think only a minority of Roman Catholics believe that; there is one young member of the forum who is actually a member of the Greek Orthodox Church but who is rather smitten with the Roman Catholic Church and lists his faith as Catholic** and its doctrines and frequently advocates for them, so he might believe in that).

The Ladder of Divine Ascent is a book written by a 6th century saint known in the West as St. John Climacus, which literally means “St. John of the Ladder”, since all we know about him is that he wrote this book, which inspired a famous Orthodox icon at the Greek Orthodox monastery of St. Catharine’s in Sinai*, which is quite historically important as it was from that monastery’s library that in the 19th century a Franco-Belgian adventurer borrowed the Codex Sinaiticus, one of the three oldest complete manuscripts of the Bible, and one of two complete manuscripts of the Alexandrian text type, the so called “MInority Text” on which newer translations of the Bible are based, and who then stole it, selling portions to the the British library and its Russian equivalent (who were presumably unaware he had stolen it) and giving a small portion to France. A fragment of this manuscript was given back to the monastery.

The book, which was initially written for monks but which like the Philokalia, an 18th century anthology of Patristic writings on the issues of prayer, mystical theology, monasticism, asceticism and Hesychasm, and the Arena, a 19th century guide to spiritual warfare written for monastics by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov (who also wrote a prayer intended for laity, On The Prayer of Jesus), have become popular among the laity. The Ladder of Divine Ascent is widely available in English, whereas the others were translated in the last few decades, except for the fifth volume of the Philokalia***.

The content of the book is about how we overcome the sinful passions, advancing towards Theosis in the process of salvation, like climbing a ladder - through cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit, since the Orthodox reject Pelagianism and other forms of monergism (such as that of Calvinism and Lutheranism, and that of Universalism), in that we believe God gave us free will, and that love must be voluntary, therefore our love for God must be voluntary.


335px-The_Ladder_of_Divine_Ascent_Monastery_of_St_Catherine_Sinai_12th_century.jpg



*The monastery is the center of the autonomous Orthodox Church of Sinai, an autonomous church under the autocephalous (ecclesiastically independent) Greel Orthodox Church of Jerusalem; autonomous churches are common in Orthodoxy as they allow a country or region to have their own church, with the metropolitan or archbishop chosen by the Holy Synod of the parent autocephalous church - in the US, the Orthodox Church in America is autocephalous, whereas ROCOR, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, and the Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America are autonomous churches. Other major autonomous churches include the Orthodox Churches in Finland, Belarus, Montenegro, Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Japan, China (although in the mainland China it was brutally suppressed by the communist, but it still exists in Hong Kong and its beautiful cathedral in Harbin, in mainland China, survives). The Church of Sinai is the smallest autonomous or autocephalous Orthodox Church in terms of the number of parishes, in that it consists of the monastery and a few chapels elsewhere on Sinai, and its members consist of the monks and some of the Bedouin tribes, and all of the Bedouin tribes in the area have access to free medical care provided by the monks at the monastery, and thus protect it from the Islamic fundamentalists who pose major security risks in Sinai. There is a resort town in Sinai, Sharm el-Sheikh, which I believe has a Coptic Orthodox (Oriental Orthodox) parish and given how many Eastern Europeans go there on vacation, probably has an Eastern Orthodox parish, but its not under the Church of Sinai, but probably the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria. The Hegumen (Abbot) of the Monastery is the Archbishop of the Church of Sinai. St. Catharine’s is also home to the bush on which the Holy Spirit appeared as a fire, which did not burn the bush or damage it in any way, as is attested to by its immense size.

640px-Saint_Catherine_Sinai.jpg


The monastery of St. Catharine in Sinai, the center of the autonomous Church of Sinai.

640px-The_sacred_tree_of_St._Catherine%27s_Monastery.jpg


The burning bush (center-right) in a courtyard of the monastery gardens).

** I would not be surprised if Orthodox identified as Catholic on the forum because the Orthodox Church believes itself to be the Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox (but not the Oriental Orthodox church) furthermore regards themselves as authentically Roman, because it was the church of the Byzantine Empire, and its followers in the Mediterranean are known as Romans )Romiioi in Greek, and Rum in Arabic).

*** The first four volumes of volumes of the original Greek Philokalia which were translated by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and Mother Mary, memory eternal, but they never got around to doing the fifth volume (I believe Mother Mary, an Orthodox nun; all Orthodox nuns are referred to by the laity as “Mother” rather than as “Sister” in the Western convention, reposed in the 2000s, but I know very little about her life - many Eastern and Oriental Orthodox monks and nuns try to remain completely anonymous). I have seen an English translation of the Romanian Philokalia which is supposed to contain more material than the Greek version, but there was much missing from it, but it might be present in the original Romanian.

By the way, if anyone has links to volume 5 of the Philokalia in the original Greek, or the original Romanian text of the Philokalia, please let me know.
 
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Arial toll houses are a common theologoumemnon (qualified theological opinion) which some regard as doctrine, but which some others strongly oppose, but which is generally regarded as spiritually accurate, although some regard it as literally accurate, which dates from the Patristic era, from the very early church, and which is described in the book by Fr. Seraphim Rose, “The State of the Soul After Death.” I suspect Purgatory was an attempt to water down this doctrine and make it less frightening, but with the result actually being more depressing and frightening (the Orthodox do not believe that there are poor souls in Purgatory who are forgotten about who are stuck there until the laity perform acts of virtue to obtain indulgences to free them, and I think only a minority of Roman Catholics believe that; there is one young member of the forum who is actually a member of the Greek Orthodox Church but who is rather smitten with the Roman Catholic Church and lists his faith as Catholic** and its doctrines and frequently advocates for them, so he might believe in that).
As much I deeply appreciate the historical fact sheet you have written and getting to know the deep cultural history of the Orthodox Church, what seems to me be at stake here is the purpose of this theologoumemnon and how it is supposed to be correctly interpreted. What is the purpose of this doctrine? How is it supposed to be correctly interpreted?

From the perspective of an outsider it looks like a mixture of the sheep and goats judgement, the Bema seat judgement of believers, and the book of Job, and it’s supposed to protect believers from ending up with a Philippians 3:19 result. Not sure that is where it really is from though. Still, from what I know about monks and monasteries, they were very invested in avoiding setting their minds on earthly things. The historical context would be a group of pious monks striving for spiritual perfection in all things, not victims of dysfunctionality looking for healing.

This theologeumemmon looks like it addresses sins a person may be tempted to commit, not sins that are committed against you. Is this correct?

The content of the book is about how we overcome the sinful passions, advancing towards Theosis in the process of salvation, like climbing a ladder - through cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit, since the Orthodox reject Pelagianism and other forms of monergism (such as that of Calvinism and Lutheranism, and that of Universalism), in that we believe God gave us free will, and that love must be voluntary, therefore our love for God must be voluntary.
Ah. I think I may have found something that will help OP, but I have not yet arrived.

My church, like many other Protestant denominations, believes in a dualistic tension between Calvinism and Arminianism, and we consider the war between the Calvinists and Armenians to be a battle the human mind cannot resolve. If we take that dualistic tension and put it on a human level, we get a dualistic tension between fatalism (I have been placed with a dysfunctional father, this is my fate, I have to do what he says and accept him) versus opposition (My dad is acting in opposition to me, but I have free will and can do whatever I deem fit to do). If we reintroduce God back into the picture with Calvinism and Arminianism, what we get is a unified statement: “God, in His Sovereign will, has ordained that I have been placed in a family with a dysfunctional father who has committed multiple Scripture violations of His moral will (Calvinism), therefore, I have the human responsibility to resist his sinful behavior, refuse to reward him for his misdeeds, and continue to fight against him to accomplish God’s will for my life, within the bounds of God’s commands in God’s strength and power(Armenian). Because God is in control of this situation, He will not give me a situation that I cannot handle, but it is my responsibility to continue to oppose sin, both ones I may commit and ones committed against me or I will suffer for it.” (This incidentally is not addiction, but rather struggle and war!)

Since the Orthodox do not believe in Calvinism, an appeal to the sovereignty of God to get out of the “I am a sinner so I deserve to be abused, both by people and by God,” hole will not work though. An appeal to Psalm 139 may be effective - we are all fearfully and wonderfully made, and not “stupid” may help - even if God does not direct us, He created us. But I think a more effective way of thinking about this would be to go back to Ephesians 6 and focus more on the empowerment of each individual believer by the Holy Spirit. Since you have free will, you have the free will to oppose sin, to make choices that are not “stupid”, and the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to resist both sin within and sin without - sins committed by you and sins committed against you (by dysfunctional fathers or otherwise).

Which brings us back to those toll houses. If the Holy Spirit in the soul of the believer is strong enough to resist the teachings and power of demons, the teachings and power of a mere dysfunctional human father is a light thing to God’s power and grace. It is overwhelming to the weak sinful flesh, but it would be nothing to the power of God and the Holy Spirit who indwells you and empowers you to resist your sinful father’s influence. The point of the toll houses would not be to torture believers; it would be to show the power of God to resist demons and their tests, much like the Book of Job.

Which gets you out of the perfectionism and the struggle for approval because you are not responsible for winning God’s approval; it is God working in you to justify, sanctify, and make you pass. Approval cannot be won; it is a gift that is given or it is not. God gives his approval as a gift, and your father will never give it.

I don’t fully know what I’m talking about, so correct me if I am wrong…
 
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This theologeumemmon looks like it addresses sins a person may be tempted to commit, not sins that are committed against you. Is this correct?

No, the various forms of the toll houses theologoumemna are about how we are accused after having died of committing various sins, but through faith in Christ we are defended against these accusations, even those which are true.

In Orthodoxy, whether one believes in toll houses or not, it is recognized we are continually tempted, but for sin to occur one must at a minimum “couple” with the temptation, that is to say, consider engaging in it, rather than rejecting it immediately. For example if a married or celibate man, or another woman, sees a beautiful woman, and considers engaging in relations w rather than rejecting the temptation immediately and focusing on fidelity and chastity, they have sinned, according to what Jesus Christ said, having committed adultery mentally if not in actuality. If one is angered at a colleague and considers, not seriously, but as a fantasy, getting revenge by murdering them or slandering them or otherwise harming them, one has sinned. We sin continually through fantasies of violence, power, sexual perversion, avarice, and indulgence, and even if we conquer these sinful passions, we are still at risk of pride, indeed even more so, for pride and delusions of grandeur are dangerous sins that monastics tend to fall into.

Now I should tell you I am not an expert concerning the Aerial Toll Houses concept (there are two slight variants of it, a more literal interpretaiton taught by the monks at St. Anthony’s Greek Orthodox Monastery in Florence, Arizona, which was led by the Athonite monk Elder Ephrem, memory eternal, who I did once meet and who I love very much, and a more spiritual, metaphorical interpretation expressed by Fr. Seraphim Rose, who also founded a monastery, St. Herman of Alaska, in Platina, California, who I never met but greatly admire, who reposed of liver cancer in 1980 if I recall. Both men are venerable and I expect they will be glorified as saints in the future. Elder Ephraim founded a total of 19 monasteries in the US after revitalizing a decaying monastery on Mount Athos in Greece. At any rate, I don’t know that much about the eschatological concept, and my approach is to keep my head down and pray for the salvation of my loved ones and I pray the Jesus Prayer “ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, A Sinner”, but am not a Hesychast, that is to say, I do not engage in the more advanced form that was taught on Mount Athos by Elder Ephrem’s spiritual father St. Joseph the Hesychast, whose relics I have venerated, but i would if I lived in a monastery or had regular access to an elder who could guide me in it, but the Jesus Prayer is a superb thing either way. I also pray, as I am able, the Divine Office.

However if you want to know more about that doctrine, you should perhaps post a thread in St. Basil’s forum and ask ArmyMatt, who is a chaplain in the US Army with the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) of which I am also affiliated, although I have been a part of congregations in other jurisdictions as well, and I have also worked with Protestants, particularly Anglicans and Congregationalists, to promote Orthodoxy and the use of Orthodox icons and prayers as a means of removing the remaining vestiges of the erroneous Scholastic theology that precipitated the schism between Rome and the Orthodox, in favor of a purely Patristic approach, which one can find in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy (and to a lesser extent in the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, but the problem with the Church of the East is that it was so severely persecuted, it lost much of its identity and barely survived, being united around a large community of Aramaic speakers, the largest in the world, but its a bit doctrinally unstable; for example, officially they should have icons and officially they are not iconoclastic - their canons require an icon of Christ not Made by Hands, a very popular icon among the Eastern Orthodox and other Eastern churches, but in practice their churches lack icons, which they claim is because of repeated desecrations by Muslims. This might be true, but they have continued building them this way in the diaspora. Nonetheless their ancient liturgy survives and is quite beautiful, although not as beautiful as that of the Syriac Orthodox or the Eastern Orthodox. The Eastern Orthodox liturgy is also the most ornate and complex in the world.

The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches firmly believe in Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi (the rule of prayer is the rule of belief and the rule of life). Thus all doctrines are contained in the liturgy, which is the definitive source of doctrinal information. However, as summaries, we have books of Dogmatic Theology, such as the 8th century Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, part of the writings of St. John of Damascus, which also include a catalog of heresies which contains the epitomes describing the older heresies from the “Medicine Chest”, a fourth century encyclopedia of heresy written by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus (whose writing in turn quotes St. Ireaneus “Against Heresies”, a second century work; St. Irenaeus of Lyons is regarded by many as the first Scholar of Theology; St. John of Damascus however wrote original and detailed profiles of more recent heresies such as Islam and Tritheism. A more recent and accessible work, albeit still under copyright, is Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, which was translated into English by Fr. Seraphim Rose (who also wrote The Soul After Death, on the subject of aerial tollhouses).

Which gets you out of the perfectionism and the struggle for approval because you are not responsible for winning God’s approval; it is God working in you to justify, sanctify, and make you pass. Approval cannot be won; it is a gift that is given or it is not. God gives his approval as a gift, and your father will never give it.

I assume you are talking about the father of @Light of the East ? My father reposed in 2015 and I miss him greatly and pray for him, and he was a devout Christian who helped the persecuted Serbian Orthodox community in Kosovo while being opposed to the regime of Slobodan Milosevic whose actions precipitated the crisis.

However in Orthodoxy we are to forgive those who have harmed us and to pray for our enemies. To quote an Anglican liturgy “God desireth not the death of a sinner, but that he might turn from his wicked ways and live…” In Orthodoxy we pray for the dead, and ask for the prayers of those who have reposed in Christ and have been glorified and are members of the Church Triumphant, the identities of some of whom we know, based on various things such as miracles or if they died a martyr (all martyrs are regarded as saints in Orthodoxy, unlike in Roman Catholicism, and likewise with confessors (those who are made to suffer for their faith in Christ), since Christ our True God said that if anyone confesses Him before men, He will confess that person before the Father. For those saints whose identities are not known to us, we venerate them along with all of those who are known on All Saints Day, which is the Sunday after Pentecost in Eastern Orthodoxy (because for the Orthodox, Pentecost is considered a feast of the Holy Trinity, because the God Holy Spirit descended upon the Holy Apostles having been sent by Christ our True God to serve as our Comforter and Paraclete, while the Holy Spirit sent Christ into the world by causing our glorious Lady Theotokos and ever virgin Mary to be miraculously impregnated with Him despite not having known a man, after she consented. And this was according to the will of God the Father.*

* Historically, several feasts which are now celebrated as multiple occasions in some churches were originally one occasion. For example, Christmas used to be celebrated together with the Baptism of our Lord, Theophany, and still is in the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is Oriental Orthodox, but all other churches including the Eastern Orthodox decided to celebrate the Nativity separately, nine months from the already existing feast of the Annunciation. Likewise, this feast was celebrated on the same day as Pascha by the Quartodecimians, but concerns over the change in how the date of Pascha was computed by the Jews led to Quartodecimianism becoming controversial in the second century, and the practice became disallowed at the Council of Nicea, which prescribed the Paschalion, the formula for calculating the date of Pascha, which for the Orthodox is the celebration of the Resurrection of Christ, and is also known as Easter, and the Paschalion aims to ensure that it is celebrated on the first Sunday following the vernal equinox which in 33 AD corresponded to March 25th, and the early church unanimously believed based on ancient tradition that our Lord was conceived on the same day as His resurrection. This is why the Feast of the Annunciation, in which the Archangel Gabriel saluted the Theotokos and informed her that if she consented, she would become pregnant with the Messiah, and she did consent.
 
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I assume you are talking about the father of @Light of the East ?
Yes. Sorry, that previous post was exhausting mentally to write, so I expected there to be a few loose threads.

I’m just responding to the blog post Light of the East linked that he said he wrote - the post says that the author switched from Protestant thinking (which he saw as an addiction) to Orthodoxy. He also said he was struggling with the Divine Ladder and the Aerial Toll Houses. Apparently he had a reaction to the latter as God withholding approval from Christians much like his father did from him.

No, the various forms of the toll houses theologoumemna are about how we are accused after having died of committing various sins, but through faith in Christ we are defended against these accusations, even those which are true.
Ah. I presume that, should such an eschatological event exist, we would be in resurrected bodies that are free from trauma, or not in bodies at all. I can’t say anything about OP, but I went through CPTSD with no doubt about it, and that disorder shows that our fallen bodies cannot handle the strain of facing accusations on a continuing basis, even ones that we know to be false. I can see why the OP would describe the toll houses as “torture.”

I woke up to false accusations every single day for 6 years of my life, and for those 6 years, I was barely functioning.To some degree, my entire life before that was filled with accusations, dodging them, but not nearly as intense as the last 6. If facing human beings spewing lies and hatred and slander on a continuing basis is damaging to the mind and body, listening to demons slander you for hours isn’t exactly something I would enjoy. Knowing that Jesus paid for it all would help, but going through all the worst moments of my life and reliving it all while fallen angels mock me would be a lot of shock. It’s spiritually and emotionally agonizing, and a CPTSD sufferer would understand the emotional implications of such a trial that a believer raised in a loving household could write off. Hmm.
 
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Ah. I presume that, should such an eschatological event exist, we would be in resurrected bodies that are free from trauma, or not in bodies at all.

The toll houses doctrine is about what happens immediately following death, to our soul, and not what happens at the last judgement when we will be resurrected bodily before facing the dread judgement seat of Christ.
 
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It’s spiritually and emotionally agonizing, and a CPTSD sufferer would understand the emotional implications of such a trial that a believer raised in a loving household could write off. Hmm.

If we places our trust in Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, who is infinitely merciful, and who is both our advocate and our judge, which is very good for us, when you think about it, the experience would be one of seeing the demons instantly repelled by the angels, who would not permit them to torment us.

This would assume the truth of the literal theologoumemnon as opposed to the theolougoumemnon expressed in Fr. Seraphim Rose, which is more widely held, in which the Toll Houses are a way of metaphorically describing a spiritual reality through references to our present condition. Neither theologoumemna envisages a lack of mercy, and furthermore it is believed by the Orthodox that the prayers of the faithful can ease any suffering experienced by the deceased, and perhaps even improve our eschatological outcome at the Day of Judgement.

There is also the possibility that both theologoumemna are wrong; as far as I am aware the Oriental Orthodox are unaware of this, but their liturgical practices following death are similar to ours. The theologoumemna are essentially an explanation offered by some Byzantine saints based on scripture and private revelation as to what happens after death and why the services are conducted the way they are in Orthodoxy for the reposed.

It is the belief of the Orthodox Church that the one God we worship, who abides in three persons, the Holy, Consubstantial, and Life Giving Trinity, an eternal family united in perfect love that we are called to be an icon of as best we can in our relations with our neighbors, our relatives and the Church and humanity as a whole, and to love with all our heart, mind and soul, is literally Love, that God is infinitely loving and merciful, and that he has demonstrated His infinite mercy as the creator and lover of mankind by putting on our humanity in the person of the only begotten Son and Word of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, God and Savior, who put on mortality and died on the cross so that we could obtain immortality in the life of the world to come and not perish but enjoy everlasting life through faith in Him, as St. John the Theologian and Beloved Disciple quotes our Lord assuring us in John 3:16.

Thus the Ladder of Divine Ascent is an aid for monks who wish to conquer the passions, which some laity also find helpful, and the Aerial Toll Houses is a theologoumemnon, or rather, a few related theolougoumemna, that inspires repentance in the same way as some of the homilies of St. John Chrysostom. Even then, no one in Orthodoxy ever preached anything like the terrifying sermon Sinners In The Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards; we do not believe that God literally becomes angry, but rather that the wrath of God is the experience of the consuming fire of His love by those who reject His love and instead hate him.

Furthermore the Orthodox regard sin as a disease that our Savior provides a salve to deliver us from death, which is the symptom of sins, through resurrection, the word Salvation being etymologically related to the word Salve, as in the context of a curing Balm. Christ our Lord, God and Savior repeatedly healed people from various diseases, and then in death upon the Cross healed us, by restoring humanity, recreating us in His image on the Sixth Day as He had created us in His image on the Sixth Day in Genesis 1, restoring the Image of God which had been corrupted in the fall, and furthermore glorifying humanity and raising us in the Resurrection to a state greater than that of Adam.

Indeed, more than any other churches I have encountered, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox (and the Assyrian Church of the East in my experience of it) celebrate the comfort provided by God the Holy Spirit and the mercy and compassion of God the Son, united in the infinite love of the unoriginate essence of God the Father for all eternity. The Lutherans, Anglicans and Moravians and John Wesley, who were all influenced by the Orthodox, do at times approach this as well. But several other Protestant denominations and much of Roman Catholicism seems very focused on a forensic approach to sin and God’s punishment of the reprobates.
 
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