Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[bbbbbbb]

“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

God is not limited by time and we experimentally have shown over the last 100 years; time is relative. God is outside of time so:

God at the end of time would know historically everything that happened include the free will choices you made and will make? History cannot be change, it happened and everything you did and will do becomes history for God at the end of time. God at the end of time thus provides a perfect history to Himself at the beginning of time, but that in no way would keep you from making autonomous free will choices.

Thus it could be better, for you to have made better free will choices, they are still your choices and not God making the choices for you.

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened it is history. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God’s actions are also fixed and can be called foreordained or predestined.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual while communicating to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, and He does the absolute best thing, so there is no reason for a do over.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

 

[bling]

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

I did not say it was??
God predestined a lot of what He did and will do, but not everything is predestined it just already happened for God.

 

[Hawkins]

I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty. So to start, I pose these questions.

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

I think that a close analogy is that God's sovereignty is like a list of options presented to a human. God can remove any choice from the option list in accordance to His will. He however usually allows you to choose a 'decision' from the option list. The devil can tempt you to choose for what he wanted you to choose, that is, a sinful choice. The Holy Spirit would guide you to choose correctly with a soft force.

Perhaps more importantly is, God can choose not to know what one's choice may turn out to be, as He only cares about His sheep. So God has the ability not to know what choice has been made by those who don't belong to Him.

Can He intervene in one way or another? Of course, as a matter of ability He can always intervene however we can hardly reason further on how He chooses to intervene or not.

 

[Hammster]

I think that a close analogy is that God's sovereignty is like a list of options presented to a human. God can remove any choice from the option list in accordance to His will. He however usually allows you to choose a 'decision' from the option list. The devil can tempt you to choose for what he wanted you to choose, that is, a sinful choice. The Holy Spirit would guide you to choose correctly with a soft force.

Perhaps more importantly is, God can choose not to know what one's choice may turn out to be, as He only cares about His sheep. So God has the ability not to know what choice has been made by those who don't belong to Him.

Can He intervene in one way or another? Of course, as a matter of ability He can always intervene however we can hardly reason further on how He chooses to intervene or not.

God doesn’t have the ability to not know something. It’s not even a logical proposition.

 

[Aviel]

If God were sovereign in the way that some believe, then there would be no sin, no sinners, no need for hell, no judgement, and no need for Jesus to die on the Cross for your sin, as you would have never sinned, if God was guiding all by Sovereignty .

Lucifer fell.
Adam Fell.
You sinned
Mankind is evil
Jesus had to die on the Cross.

Why?

Because God is not performing Sovereignty as Theological error teaches it.

 

[Hammster]

If God were sovereign in the way that some believe, then there would be no sin, no sinners, no need for hell, no judgement, and no need for Jesus to die on the Cross for your sin, as you would have never sinned, if God was guiding all by Sovereignty .

Lucifer fell.
Adam Fell.
You sinned
Mankind is evil
Jesus had to die on the Cross.

Why?

Because God is not performing Sovereignty as Theological error teaches it.

Can you think of any attributes of God that we wouldn’t know about had there been no sin?

 

[Aviel]

Can you think of any attributes of God that we wouldn’t know about had there been no sin?

So, for there to have been no sin, there would have to have been no Lucifer.
Sin started with Him, and He was sent down here, because 'iniquity" was found in Him.
He arrived down here, with his fallen support group, before Adam was Created.
Hell and the Lake of fire were create for Him, before Adam was created.

SATAN is the father of the sIn nature.
Notice that he is FALLEN...
Adam is the "fallen nature"...(Adamic).... so, SIN is the Devil's nature and its the nature of a SINNER, who is us all, until we are born again.

Jesus said that He saw him "fall" as "lightning"... and that is interesting, as this is a slight reference to "light", and we know that Paul told us that the Devil transforms himself into anan angel of LIGHT.
He is FAKE Light., but he is Light, he is knowledge, he is of a type of Dark wisdom.... and he masquerades as TRUTH.

So, had there been no Lucifer, then Adam and bride would have been "one with God" forever, and in that spiritual union they apparently would not have known at that time, what they discovered by the eyes of their understanding being APPLE= opened.

I can't speak for God and know when He would have let them SEE it all.
That is not recorded in the word of God.

Did the Foreknowledge of God know they would rebel against His word ?..... Of course..
Did God's Foreknowledge know what would manifest next? Of course.
God being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.... He is all knowing.

Where this becomes a Theology that has some real error in it, is when a person tries to FORCE God's "Foreknowledge" as God "pre-determined it all".

Foreknowledge is the same thing as bible prophecy.. Its simply knowing what is coming next., and that is not the same as causing it to happen.
Its showing it, not causing it.
So, right there is a line of severe division in the BOChrist....as you have those who understand that "FORE-Knowledge" ... is simply all knowledge before it all happens.....

And you have the others who see Fore-Knowing it all as God causing it all.

 

[Hammster]

So, for there to have been no sin, there would have to have been no Lucifer.
Sin started with Him, and He was sent down here, because 'iniquity" was found in Him.
He arrived down here, with his fallen support group, before Adam was Created.
Hell and the Lake of fire were create for Him, before Adam was created.

SATAN is the father of the sIn nature.
Notice that he is FALLEN...
Adam is the "fallen nature"...(Adamic).... so, SIN is the Devil's nature and its the nature of a SINNER, who is us all, until we are born again.

Jesus said that He saw him "fall" as "lightning"... and that is interesting, as this is a slight reference to "light", and we know that Paul told us that the Devil transforms himself into anan angel of LIGHT.
He is FAKE Light., but he is Light, he is knowledge, he is of a type of Dark wisdom.... and he masquerades as TRUTH.

So, had there been no Lucifer, then Adam and bride would have been "one with God" forever, and in that spiritual union they apparently would not have known at that time, what they discovered by the eyes of their understanding being APPLE= opened.

I can't speak for God and know when He would have let them SEE it all.
That is not recorded in the word of God.

Did the Foreknowledge of God know they would rebel against His word ?..... Of course..
Did God's Foreknowledge know what would manifest next? Of course.
God being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.... He is all knowing.

Where this becomes a Theology that has some real error in it, is when a person tries to FORCE God's "Foreknowledge" as God "pre-determined it all".

Foreknowledge is the same thing as bible prophecy.. Its simply knowing what is coming next., and that is not the same as causing it to happen.
Its showing it, not causing it.
So, right there is a line of severe division in the BOChrist....as you have those who understand that "FORE-Knowledge" ... is simply all knowledge before it all happens.....

And you have the others who see Fore-Knowing it all as God causing it all.

I’m still curious as to your answer of this. Can you think of any attributes of God that we wouldn’t know about had there been no sin?

 

[Aviel]

I’m still curious as to your answer of this. Can you think of any attributes of God that we wouldn’t know about had there been no sin?

I can't know if God would have shown Adam all that we know now.
As it didnt happen that way.

No need to delve into conjecture.

We know that adam did what he did, and what happened happened.
What we can't know at this point, is if Adam would have been shown more later.

 

[Aviel]

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

Isn't that the fatal flaw of some of Calvinism?

He wrongly defined God's Foreknowledge as "pre-destined" and wrote a Theology around that miscomprehension?

He simply could not comprehend that God knowing everything that is going to happen NEXT... is not the same as God causing every thing to happen.

 

[Hammster]

I can't know if God would have shown Adam all that we know now.
As it didnt happen that way.

No need to delve into conjecture.

We know that adam did what he did, and what happened happened.
What we can't know at this point, is if Adam would have been shown more later.

I think we can. If we can’t, then the cross would be an afterthought, and not the plan. For instance, if there’s no sin, how could we understand forgiveness? Wrath? Justice? Mercy? Etc.

While it’s possible to explain it, I suppose, it would not be a factor in worship.

 

[Aviel]

I think we can. If we can’t, then the cross would be an afterthought, and not the plan. For instance, if there’s no sin, how could we understand forgiveness? Wrath? Justice? Mercy? Etc.

While it’s possible to explain it, I suppose, it would not be a factor in worship.

We can't know what God would have done, had Satan not tempted Eve, and Adam did what He did.

What we know is that God knew that Adam would do it, and God knew what would transpire.

Im not the person who would teach some warped idea that God caused Adam to sin, so that He could bring the Cross for sinners.

But, It is a fact that God knew what was going to happen next.
Just like He knows right now.

 

[Hammster]

We can't know what God would have done, had Satan not tempted Eve, and Adam did what He did.

What we know is that God knew that Adam would do it, and God knew what would transpire.

Im not the person who would teach some warped idea that God caused Adam to sin, so that He could bring the Cross for sinners.

But, It is a fact that God knew what was going to happen next.
Just like He knows right now.

Nobody is arguing that God caused Adam to sin. That’s a straw man.

 

[Aviel]

Nobody is arguing that God caused Adam to sin. That’s a straw man.

I dont agree that the "cross is an afterthought", that God came up with subsequent to Adam's fall.

God's foreknowledge knew what Adam was going to do with that Apple, before Hell was created for Lucifer, so, He also knew that the only way back for Adamic man was for Him to die in a virgin born body, on the Cross.
All this God knew would happen.

"Foreknowledge"

 

[Hammster]

I dont agree that the "cross is an afterthought", that God came up with subsequent to Adam's fall.

God's foreknowledge knew what Adam was going to do with that Apple, before Hell was created for Lucifer, so, He also knew that the only way back for Adamic man was for Him to die in a virgin born body, on the Cross.
All this God knew would happen.

"Foreknowledge"

If that’s the case, then you have to argue that God was completely incapable of stopping Adam from sinning. He just had to sit back and watch it happen.

 

[Aviel]

If that’s the case, then you have to argue that God was completely incapable of stopping Adam from sinning. He just had to sit back and watch it happen.

You would want to argue that... as that is the Calvinist POV.

However, what God doesn't do, is force your will.
He always allows us to choose, and that way, we are accountable.

Freedom, and Free Will, have as their natural balance, = Consequence.

What i would say is that just like you allow your kids to become themselves.. (or you will) ... exactly your parents allowed you to make your own life choices...... God allowed Adam to choose.

See, God already knew the consequence of eating the Apple, and that is why God told them not do it.
He was trying (as a parent will) to protect them.....but parents have to let consequences teach you the boundaries.
That's one of the more painful parts of "Love"... is that you have to let your kids learn the hard way, at times., as its the only way they will learn.

 

[Hammster]

You would want to argue that... as that is the Calvinist POV.

However, what God doesn't do, is force your will.
He always allows us to choose, and that way, we are accountable.

Freedom, and Free Will, have as their natural balance, = Consequence.

What i would say is that just like you allow your kids to become themselves.. (or you will) ... exactly your parents allowed you to make your own life choices...... God allowed Adam to choose.

See, God already knew the consequence of eating the Apple, and that is why God told them not do it.
He was trying (as a parent will) to protect them.....but parents have to let consequences teach you the boundaries.
That's one of the more painful parts of "Love"... is that you have to let your kids learn the hard way, at times., as it’s the only way they will learn.

Protecting them was to cast the entire world into sin? Wouldn’t it better to

1. Not create Satan in the first place
2. Not make a law about eating from the tree
3. Not let Satan enter the Garden
4. Tell Eve to not listen
5. Intervene before Adam took a bite

Any of those things would be good.

And since none of those things happened, we have ti conclude that God had a plan.

 

[Aviel]

Protecting them was to cast the entire world into sin? Wouldn’t it better to

1. Not create Satan in the first place
2. Not make a law about eating from the tree
3. Not let Satan enter the Garden
4. Tell Eve to not listen
5. Intervene before Adam took a bite

Any of those things would be good.

And since none of those things happened, we have ti conclude that God had a plan.

Its not for us, the created, to tell God The Creator....what He "coulda, shoulda, woulda'"....


also, God isn't in the "Robot' creation business.
He built man in "our, us" Image, and allows us to choose.
We can choose to love God, ignore God, blame God.
Whatever we want to do with our free will and mind., as CHOICE. = do it, with consequence.


What i do, is thank God for Jesus.
As, i understand that God knew the Cost to Himself, that was going to happen, by Creating Man, with free will.
He was willing to die, as a man, on the Cross, so that we could have the right to be free will moral agents, just like Himself.
I appreciate this...
Not everyone will.

 

[Hammster]

Its not for us, the created, to tell God The Creator....what He "coulda, shoulda, woulda'"....


also, God isn't in the "Robot' creation business.
He built man in "our, us" Image, and allows us to choose.
We can choose to love God, ignore God, blame God.
Whatever we want to do with our free will and mind., as CHOICE. = do it, with consequence.


What i do, is thank God for Jesus.
As, i understand that God knew the Cost to Himself, that was going to happen, by Creating Man, with free will.
He was willing to die, as a man, on the Cross, so that we could have the right to be free will moral agents, just like Himself.
I appreciate this...
Not everyone will.

You are not willing to deal with the arguments, so I’m not sure I want to waste any more time than I have.
Good day.

 

[Aviel]

You are not willing to deal with the arguments, so I’m not sure I want to waste any more time than I have.
Good day.

I dealt with the point of view, a few posts back, when i told you that we , me, you, are not qualified to know what "could have been",

We dont know if God would have opened the eyes, the spiritual understanding, of Adam and Eve, later.... had they not rebelled.
We can't know.
They did what they wanted to do, (Choice) and that was going to happen as God's foreknowledge.

What we can do, is look as some man's ideas, who isn't the first one to think about these things.. and ponder them.
Sure.
Its fun., and interesting.

You know.....these type questions...... "what if there had been no Satan". What if there had been no EVE".

Sure, we can put our man made analysis on those things, but, we are not qualified to know the answer,to your questions., or mine.

Here is why, Hammster,....

55:9-13 = “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts, saith God"""


See that?
So, what we can know is that what God did,..... what God allows, .....and what God will do next, is always right, just, and true.

And we have to always consider that there are bitter men out there, who want to play the blame game, according to how they see it.
However, they dont know the whole picture... they only know some, so, we have to understand that about them, regarding what they want us to believe.

Here is what we can do.
WE can wonder , and discuss, and then one day, we are going meet God and Christ, and if all these questions are still important for you to know, then you can ask them, and they will have the final answer for you.

No one down here does.
Only they know.