Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[Hammster]

Yeah except that doesn’t address all of the implications that the verses I provided imply. It doesn’t address the fact that Jesus was trying to save those people in John 5. It doesn’t address the fact that God was trying to get those people to repent in Romans 4 or that Jesus was expecting Jezebel to repent in Revelation 2 or that Paul and Timothy were capable of being denied by Christ or that some people come to Christ but don’t remain in Him in John 15. Why would they be drawn to Christ by The Father yet allowed to fall away?

You made Jesus a failure.

 

[Hammster]

No I didn’t dismiss it as irrelevant, I provided verses that prove that those examples can’t be used to reach the conclusion that you’re saying it does. If you’d like to discuss those verses and explain how they don’t negate your conclusion that would be more beneficial.

You gave references. You didn’t post verses. That’s not an argument.

 

[Hammster]

None of these verses Indicate that God actually planned to save certain individuals. None of them tell us exactly what God’s plan actually is. Suppose His plan was to save only those who would choose to repent and believe and abide in Christ of their own free will?

If you are moving the goalposts, then I’m not sure how we are going to continue.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You made Jesus a failure.

Did I?

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭33‬-‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?””
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭43‬-‭47‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Two questions

1 Was Jesus trying to save these people?

2 Will they be saved or will they be condemned by Moses?

 

[Kale100]

I've been struggling to wrap my mind around the topic being discussed these past few posts, but think I've advanced maybe a half step with this analogy and line of thinking, let me know whether this sounds right...

God perhaps has not planned every minute detail, just discrete important events. These things will happen, let's call them objectives.
We are like a hungry horse, and the objective is like a carrot on a stick. The hungry horse will attempt to retrieve the carrot, this is a simple fact of it's being. The horse in it's limited cognitive capacity will however try various techniques to retrieve the carrot; walking forward, moving it's head, extending it's lips or tongue: This is free will.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You gave references. You didn’t post verses. That’s not an argument.

i apologize I’ll be more specific for you. Romans 2:4-5 John 5:34 2 Timothy 2:12 Revelation 2:20-21 John 15:1-7

Sorry I just noticed that I had a typo it was supposed to be Romans 2 not Romans 4.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I've been struggling to wrap my mind around the topic being discussed these past few posts, but think I've advanced maybe a half step with this analogy and line of thinking, let me know whether this sounds right...

God perhaps has not planned every minute detail, just discrete important events. These things will happen, let's call them objectives.
We are like a hungry horse, and the objective is like a carrot on a stick. The hungry horse will attempt to retrieve the carrot, this is a simple fact of it's being. The horse in it's limited cognitive capacity will however try various techniques to retrieve the carrot; walking forward, moving it's head, extending it's lips or tongue: This is free will.

I don’t think that analogy works because not all horses want the carrot.

 

[Hammster]

1 Was Jesus trying to save these people?

Jesus doesn’t need to try. He is God.

2 Will they be saved or will they be condemned by Moses?

It doesn’t say.

 

[Hammster]

i apologize I’ll be more specific for you. Romans 2:4-5 John 5:34 2 Timothy 2:12 Revelation 2:20-21 John 15:1-7

Sorry I just noticed that I had a typo it was supposed to be Romans 2 not Romans 4.

Still giving references. That’s not an argument.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Still giving references. That’s not an argument.

Yeah except that doesn’t address all of the implications that the verses I provided imply. It doesn’t address the fact that Jesus was trying to save those people in John 5. It doesn’t address the fact that God was trying to get those people to repent in Romans 2 or that Jesus was expecting Jezebel to repent in Revelation 2 or that Paul and Timothy were capable of being denied by Christ or that some people come to Christ but don’t remain in Him in John 15. Why would they be drawn to Christ by The Father yet allowed to fall away?

i apologize I’ll be more specific for you. Romans 2:4-5 John 5:34 2 Timothy 2:12 Revelation 2:20-21 John 15:1-7

Sorry I just noticed that I had a typo it was supposed to be Romans 2 not Romans 4.

There, to make it easier for you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus doesn’t need to try. He is God.

It doesn’t say.

Your avoiding question 1 and the answer to question 2 is right there in the verse I posted for you. Jesus SPECIFICALLY STATED that Moses WILL condemn them. You just don’t want to admit it.

 

[Hammster]

There, to make it easier for you.

Here’s my response. Isaiah 44

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here’s my response. Isaiah 44

Yeah I read Isaiah 44 and don’t see the answer to any of my questions. You’re just playing games here. The word of God is not a joke or something to toy around with. If your going to ignore it then why create a thread to discuss the topic in the first place?

 

[Kale100]

I don’t think that analogy works because not all horses want the carrot.

That is why I specified the horse was hungry. Could replace it with a thirsty horse and a bucket of water at the end of a stick. Whatever conveys an irresistible force.

 

[Hammster]

Your avoiding question 1 and the answer to question 2 is right there in the verse I posted for you. Jesus SPECIFICALLY STATED that Moses WILL condemn them. You just don’t want to admit it.

Just because you disagree with my answers doesn’t mean I’m avoiding the questions. I just didn’t go where you thought I’d go.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is why I specified the horse was hungry. Could replace it with a thirsty horse and a bucket of water at the end of a stick. Whatever conveys an irresistible force.

Perhaps you misread my post friend but I said not all horses want to carrot which would mean that some horses are hungry but some aren’t.

 

[Hammster]

Yeah I read Isaiah 44 and don’t see the answer to any of my questions. You’re just playing games here. The word of God is not a joke or something to toy around with. If your going to ignore it then why create a thread to discuss the topic in the first place?

It’s not a game. You aren’t making arguments, so I’m responding in kind.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just because you disagree with my answers doesn’t mean I’m avoiding the questions. I just didn’t go where you thought I’d go.

Well it’s a simple question was Jesus trying to save them? “I say these things so that you may be saved”. That’s what He said. So this statement puts you in a position where you must either directly contradict what is written in the scriptures or to reverse your position. So which is it going to be?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s not a game. You aren’t making arguments, so I’m responding in kind.

No you’re dodging every one of the verses I quoted because you’re either forced to reverse your position or contradict what is written. Hence you’re just playing games.

 

[Kale100]

Perhaps you misread my post friend but I said not all horses want to carrot which would mean that some horses are hungry but some aren’t.

I believe it is you who misread my post. I specified that the horses are hungry. But anyways... forget the horse, forget the carrot.
Objective = irresistible force