Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[Hammster]

The main point of the parable is to show the goodness of the father. You're the one who missed the point.

Not at all. Here’s what starter it all.

Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
— Luke 15:2

They are the elder brother.

 

[William Lefranc]

How do you know that? How do you know that the criminal wouldn’t have done worse things? Joseph’s brothers wanted to kill Him. How do you know God didn’t intervene so that he was only sold into slavery, and purchased by the right individual? After all, Joseph told them what they meant for evil, God meant for good.

I know because I read the scriptures extensively.

 

[Hammster]

I know because I read the scriptures extensively.

I have, too. I’ve not seen that addressed. I’ve seen scripture that says God has plans, he directs our paths, He restrains evil, He knows both what will happen in the future, and why things happened in the past.

 

[bling]

And you miss the point of the parable, which was to show the wickedness of the elder brother.

How do you know the older brother did not accept the father's explanation and go to the party, the answer is lft to the audience, so what will they decide?

 

[Hammster]

How do you know the older brother did not accept the father's explanation and go to the party, the answer is lft to the audience, so what will they decide?

It’s not left to the audience. It wasn’t a “choose your own ending” story.

 

[bling]

It’s not left to the audience. It wasn’t a “choose your own ending” story.

OK you tell me did the older son go to the party or did he decide not to go to the party and what proof do you have for your answer?
The father certainly did an excellent job to convince the older son to go, but it was up to the older son individually, just like it is up to us individually to go or not go to the party (kingdom).

 

[Hammster]

OK you tell me did the older son go to the party or did he decide not to go to the party and what proof do you have for your answer?
The father certainly did an excellent job to convince the older son to go, but it was up to the older son individually, just like it is up to us individually to go or not go to the party (kingdom).

You are making this parable say what it never said.

 

[bling]

You are making this parable say what it never said.

NOT AT ALL!
I am stating what we do not know about the ending, because Jesus ends the parable prior to us knowing what the older son did. Since we agree the older son represents the Pharisees Jesus is talking to (His main audience), The Pharisees get to mentally decide their own ending.

 

[Hammster]

NOT AT ALL!
I am stating what we do not know about the ending, because Jesus ends the parable prior to us knowing what the older son did. Since we agree the older son represents the Pharisees Jesus is talking to (His main audience), The Pharisees get to mentally decide their own ending.

You’re stuck in that rut, and I’m done repeating myself.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Psalm 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all.

 

[Hammster]

Psalm 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all.

Apparently not man’s free will, if some members are to be believed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Apparently not man’s free will, if some members are to be believed.

I understand “all” to mean all.

 

[bling]

You’re stuck in that rut, and I’m done repeating myself.

I can only say what Christ taught. The story does not change.

 

[Hammster]

I can only say what Christ taught. The story does not change.

You can also misinterpret what He taught.

 

[dms1972]

I've a question about this sovereignty, foreknowledge and foreordination. So one of the classical attributes of God is omniscience, He knows what will take place, he knew Adam would disobey His command in the Garden before he created the world and human beings, I am not sure whether if its right to think in terms of causation though. In this view I am suggesting that foreknowledge does not cause something, but having foreknown it, it is then foreordained that it will be so, but the disobedience is still that of Adam and Eve. If Adam had not sinned, then God would have foreknown that instead and also foreordained it?

 

[Hammster]

I've a question about this sovereignty, foreknowledge and foreordination. So one of the classical attributes of God is omniscient, he knows what will take place, he knew Adam would disobey in the Garden before he created the world and human beings, I am not sure whether if its right to think in terms of causation, but is Adam's disobedience the cause of of God's foreknowledge of his disobedience, and does God then foreordaine that it should take place. What I am saying is foreknowledge cannot cause something, but having foreknown it is then foreordained that it will be so, but finally Adam is created free to obey or disobey. If Adam had not sinned, then God would have foreknown that and also foreordained it?

In a temporal sense, I think it happens all at one time, noting that there time didn’t exist when this decision was made (so using words like “when” doesn’t actually work, but it’s what we have).

Logically, though, foreordination would be first, because for something to happen, God must ordain it to happen.

 

[dms1972]

In the view I am discussing (which I am not saying is right) He does foreordain what comes to pass, but its in the sense of God saying "I know what will happen, but let it be so" In the way I am trying to explain it God creates Adam and Eve able to obey or disobey, that is given to them by God, but he doesn't determine what they will choose. However having foreknown what will in actuality take place, God says "let it be so" to what he foreknows (without determining) will take place?

 

[Hammster]

In the view I am discussing (which I am not saying is right) He does foreordain what comes to pass, but its in the sense of God saying "I know what will happen, but let it be so" In the way I am trying to explain it God creates Adam and Eve able to obey or disobey, that is given to them by God, but he doesn't determine what they will choose. However having foreknown what will in actuality take place, God says "let it be so" to what he foreknows (without determining) will take place?

Since the cross is what brings Him the most glory (all of His attributes are on display) it was necessary for Adam to sin. So God ordered it to happen the way that it did. I could not have happened any other way.

 

[bling]

You can also misinterpret what He taught.

If I am being led by a false spirit, I could certainly be wrong, but the direction is consistent with other scripture.

 

[bling]

I've a question about this sovereignty, foreknowledge and foreordination. So one of the classical attributes of God is omniscience, He knows what will take place, he knew Adam would disobey His command in the Garden before he created the world and human beings, I am not sure whether if its right to think in terms of causation though. In this view I am suggesting that foreknowledge does not cause something, but having foreknown it, it is then foreordained that it will be so, but the disobedience is still that of Adam and Eve. If Adam had not sinned, then God would have foreknown that instead and also foreordained it?

“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

God is not limited by time and we experimentally have shown over the last 100 years; time is relative. God is outside of time so:

God at the end of time would know historically everything that happened include the free will choices you made and will make? History cannot be change, it happened and everything you did and will do becomes history for God at the end of time. God at the end of time thus provides a perfect history to Himself at the beginning of time, but that in no way would keep you from making autonomous free will choices.

Thus it could be better, for you to have made better free will choices, they are still your choices and not God making the choices for you.

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened it is history. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God’s actions are also fixed and can be called foreordained or predestined.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual while communicating to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, and He does the absolute best thing, so there is no reason for a do over.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.