Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It’s funny that when sovereign control is mentioned that folks go to “micro manage”. How do you think the cross happened?

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

Those who had Christ put to death on the Cross had no idea that they were part of God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge. They chose to have Jesus crucified to get rid of Him because He was being too influential and putting their own religious positions at risk. This is the mystery. We plan our own way and make our own decisions, and find out later as we look back that our path has been planned all along.

I believe that the sovereignty of God means that after all is said and done, the buck stops with Him. He is the final authority and there is none to question Him in what He chooses to do. Both Judas and Peter betrayed Christ in their own way, but God blocked any chance for Judas to repent, and gave Peter room to repent and be restored. This is God's sovereignty: He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will harden whom He will harden, and He will be totally righteous in what He decides.

But sovereignty does not mean fatalism. Muslims believe that Allah cannot be influenced. What he does he does and no one can do anything about it. But for the Christian, prayer changes things. This is the mystery of God's grace and character: We can pray and see circumstances change, and yet God's plans and purposes are fulfilled. At the end of the 70 years of Israel's captivity, Daniel knew it, and he started praying to bring it to pass. This is where he prayed for three weeks with nothing happening, and then the angel Michael came and explained that he was held up in a battle with the Prince of Persia. Then Daniel got the information about what God was going to do. The decision was made by Cyrus when he read the prophecy of Isaiah that described him, hundreds of years before he was born, and this amazed him and he knew that the God of Israel was real. This made his decision to allow the people of Israel to go back and rebuild the Temple. Cyrus' decision to read Isaiah's prophecy, and then to allow the Israelites to go back to Jerusalem was made by himself, but at the same time was taking part in God's sovereign plan to restore Israel after the 70 years of captivity as was previous prophesied.

 

[Hammster]

Those who had Christ put to death on the Cross had no idea that they were part of God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge. They chose to have Jesus crucified to get rid of Him because He was being too influential and putting their own religious positions at risk. This is the mystery. We plan our own way and make our own decisions, and find out later as we look back that our path has been planned all along.

I believe that the sovereignty of God means that after all is said and done, the buck stops with Him. He is the final authority and there is none to question Him in what He chooses to do. Both Judas and Peter betrayed Christ in their own way, but God blocked any chance for Judas to repent, and gave Peter room to repent and be restored. This is God's sovereignty: He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will harden whom He will harden, and He will be totally righteous in what He decides.

But sovereignty does not mean fatalism. Muslims believe that Allah cannot be influenced. What he does he does and no one can do anything about it. But for the Christian, prayer changes things. This is the mystery of God's grace and character: We can pray and see circumstances change, and yet God's plans and purposes are fulfilled. At the end of the 70 years of Israel's captivity, Daniel knew it, and he started praying to bring it to pass. This is where he prayed for three weeks with nothing happening, and then the angel Michael came and explained that he was held up in a battle with the Prince of Persia. Then Daniel got the information about what God was going to do. The decision was made by Cyrus when he read the prophecy of Isaiah that described him, hundreds of years before he was born, and this amazed him and he knew that the God of Israel was real. This made his decision to allow the people of Israel to go back and rebuild the Temple. Cyrus' decision to read Isaiah's prophecy, and then to allow the Israelites to go back to Jerusalem was made by himself, but at the same time was taking part in God's sovereign plan to restore Israel after the 70 years of captivity as was previous prophesied.

So it looks like God is completely sovereign over all history.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So it looks like God is completely sovereign over all history.

I would agree with that. When we read through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, we see that clearly. Our history is on a linear time line with the past, present and future. We remember the past, experience the present and hope to the future. In our space-time reality, we are conscious only of our future determined by our day to day decisions. But God lives outside of our space-time continuum. He is not limited by time. He sees the end from the beginning. Therefore He influences history from His reality outside of ours. This enables Him to guide our steps while we plan our own way. As well as that, we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us.

This is the interesting thing about the Holy Spirit. As God, He lives outside of time at the same time He is in us. This means that He sees the end from the beginning. This makes our walk in the Spirit very interesting. The Scripture says that they who are led by the Spirit are the children of God. This means that as we are trusting Christ and seeking to walk in the Spirit, He is guiding us toward us being conformed to the image of Christ. When I said that He does not micro-manage, I mean that we are free to make our own decisions, but with the Spirit in us we have a sense of what is good and what is evil and this regulates what we do and say. We are not limited in what we decide in terms of where we live, who we marry, how many children we have, what education we decide, what employment we have, what church we go to, etc., but because we have the Holy Spirit in us, as the Scripture says, :All things work together for good for those who love the Lord and who are called to His purpose."

What makes us different from unbelievers is that we are new creatures in Christ living lives for a particular purpose and looking forward to a final outcome which will have us, in the new heaven and earth, with the rest of the multitude without number praising God.

This means that we do not have to live in fear of making wrong decisions that would ruin our future. It doesn't matter what we decide, God has a way of bringing good out of it. Even if we feel that we have made serious mistakes, God will use those to work for good. This is because it is not how we start and how we race, that is important, but how we go over the finish line.

 

[Derf]

I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty.

You might want to start with a definition of sovereignty.

So to start, I pose these questions.

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

Does God NEED to know every action man might freely choose in order to be sovereign? Someone recently offered the mixture of spices as an example. God could know, I suppose, what the outcome of any mix of spices would be, since He created all of the spices. If a human decided to combine nutmeg with cloves with oregano with saffron, God could know how it would affect the man's palette (and every other man's palette), but His sovereignty isn't threatened by not knowing it.

Or on the other, more macabre, side, does God need to know every possible way to murder someone in order to prevent or allow such murder? Must God consider such things? Isn't He then opening Himself up to the ill effects of sin, as if He had actually committed such sin by considering all the different ways to kill someone? I'm not sure it's necessary for His sovereignty to remain intact.

So about that definition...You might have heard or read the Mayflower Compact, which speaks of the "dread sovereign King James", who was the king of England when the Pilgrims left there for America. Was James actually sovereign over anything? He was if sovereignty deals more with what happens to someone after they make a choice rather than whether the choice might be allowed or not. I.e., if one of the Pilgrims had committed murder, then jumped on the Mayflower to escape James' wrath, King James would probably be able to hunt him down and bring him back to justice--not perfectly, but sufficiently adeptly such that a lot of would-be murderers would fear him and not attempt murder in the first place. But some will, thinking that James' reach isn't so long.

Isn't God's sovereignty like that? Don't we acknowledge that at the judgement seat, everybody's evil deeds will be read from the books and justice will be meted out?
[Rom 2:5-6 KJV] 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[Halbhh]

He sees the end from the beginning

Here's it's best to correct this to the actual wording of scripture for this one -- the famous "end from the beginning" verse (or famous to me personally at least) -- as that difference itself is what we are discussing here in the thread:

10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

That's quite different from "sees" isn't it.

God is 'sovereign' we could say: He declares the end from the beginning, and He will do it!!!

(so, for example, God is not merely watching as things unfold so that he merely sees the end from the beginning.... No, He is going to make it happen as He has declared.)

Now it might be you were really talking about a different "sees" I notice -- as I'd word it, that God can see where our current direction will take us, where that path goes, if we continue in that direction.

Then, seeing what direction we are going, He can for example discipline us when needed (Hebrews 12:6)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Here's it's best to correct this to the actual wording of scripture for this one -- the famous "end from the beginning" verse (or famous to me personally at least) -- as that difference itself is what we are discussing here in the thread:

10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

That's quite different from "sees" isn't it.

God is 'sovereign' we could say: He declares the end from the beginning, and He will do it!!!

(so, for example, God is not merely watching as things unfold so that he merely sees the end from the beginning.... No, He is going to make it happen as He has declared.)

Now it might be you were really talking about a different "sees" I notice -- as I'd word it, that God can see where our current direction will take us, where that path goes, if we continue in that direction.

Then, seeing what direction we are going, He can for example discipline us when needed (Hebrews 12:6)

What you have said is totally reasonable and makes things clearer. It goes along with the verse: "A man may plan his way but the Lord guides his steps."