Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[bling]

Does God have reasons for not doing something?

Not the issue. All God does, does not do and allows is to help willing individuals in the fulfilling of their objective.

 

[Hammster]

Not the issue. All God does, does not do and allows is to help willing individuals in the fulfilling of their objective.

It is the issue, though, even in your statement. What if God, by not acting, helps willing individuals to fulfill their objectives?

 

[bling]

It is the issue, though, even in your statement. What if God, by not acting, helps willing individuals to fulfill their objectives?

OK. so we agree, God stays back and allows people to make some autonomous free will choices, to possibly help them.

 

[Hammster]

OK. so we agree, God stays back and allows people to make some autonomous free will choices, to possibly help them.

At times. Sometimes He acts in a positive fashion. In fact, I think He mostly acts in a positive fashion, otherwise evil would be unabated.

Here’s an example of what happens when He withdraws and lets man do his thing.

And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
— Revelation 6:4

 

[fhansen]

Of course God can do whatever He wants, including allowing man to do what's right in his own eyes, or preventing him from or compelling him to do some act or another.

 

[Hammster]

Of course God can do whatever He wants, including allowing man to do what's right in his own eyes, or preventing him from or compelling him to do some act or another.

It’s not often we agree on something.

 

[Hammster]

Huh??? I would say "unabated evil" pretty much describes the present day and the history of mankind. Where is there evidence of God abating anything? Where is there a period of history that doesn't look pretty much like Revelation 6:4? Is the fact that mankind hasn't completely destroyed itself (yet) and that every country isn't involved in a senseless war 365 days a year supposed to be evidence of God abating something?

Looking at human history, I would have to say the most plausible position is deism - God has no providential involvement at all.

And yet, I have experienced, in very remarkable ways, God's providential involvement in my own life and the lives of others. But, like miracles, it's all on a small, one-off scale. I see no abatement of evil on a large scale. Ergo, I accept God's complete sovereignty over His creation but am content to let the way that He exercises it remain a mystery.

Are you saying that you are completely evil? That’s the conclusion I’d have to draw from your post.

 

[Hammster]

Are THEY saying that I am completely evil? I have no idea what you are saying or suggesting or how it relates to my post. Who are "they" and why would they be saying I'm "completely evil" and how could you possibly "draw that conclusion" from my post?

Sorry. I’ll edit the post. Not sure how that happened.

 

[Hammster]

Your edit makes no more sense to me. The conclusion you draw from my post is that I am saying that I am completely evil??? I don't think I was saying that or anything like that.

In the post to which I responded, you stated "I think He mostly acts in a positive fashion, otherwise evil would be unabated."

My point was that I don't believe human history shows much if any evidence of God abating evil except perhaps in very small-scale instances. Human history is pretty much an unbroken chain of war and atrocity.

Mankind, including me, certainly isn't completely evil. But when human evil does run amuck, I see nothing to suggest God abates it. What would be the factual basis for your statement? The Holocaust could've been a lot worse?

I concluded my post by stating "And yet, I have experienced, in very remarkable ways, God's providential involvement in my own life and the lives of others. But, like miracles, it's all on a small, one-off scale. I see no abatement of evil on a large scale. Ergo, I accept God's complete sovereignty over His creation but am content to let the way that He exercises it remain a mystery."

From THAT you'd "have to draw the conclusion" that I'm saying I'm completely evil??? I'm just not following at all.

The Revelation 6 passage shows that men can indeed be more evil than they are.

If you want evidence of God abating anything, just look to scripture. Romans says

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
— Romans 8:29

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
— Romans 12:2

Are we changing ourselves? Or is God doing it?

 

[John Mullally]

I concluded my post by stating "And yet, I have experienced, in very remarkable ways, God's providential involvement in my own life and the lives of others. But, like miracles, it's all on a small, one-off scale. I see no abatement of evil on a large scale. Ergo, I accept God's complete sovereignty over His creation but am content to let the way that He exercises it remain a mystery."

Thanks for the insight. I believe this underlined abatement relies on Christ's body - the church. Jesus gave the church power in Matthew 6:10 and Matthew 16:19. Also consider the Great Commission. Why does Christ follow "all authority is given to me", with "therefore go".

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for the insight. I believe this underlined abatement relies on Christ's body - the church. Jesus gave the church power in Matthew 6:10 and Matthew 16:19.

Care to actually address the OP??

 

[John Mullally]

Care to actually address the OP??I

I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty. So to start, I pose these questions.

Often in the Calvinist and non-Calvinist debate, Calvinists use the same vocabulary but a different dictionary. We all agree that God is sovereign, but we don’t all treat it to mean the same thing. Calvinists define “sovereignty” in a way that assumes Calvinism, such as Theistic “determinism,” namely the belief that God exhaustively and meticulously decreed whatsoever comes to pass (some call it first cause), whereas non-Calvinists interpret divine sovereignty to mean “dominion,” meaning God’s kingly right to rule as He pleases; God sits in the heavens and does what He pleases.

As a system of providence, while it’s true that “determinism” would give God an enormous amount of tight control, nonetheless for a variety of reasons, determinism may not have been God’s preferred choice (i.e. God not wanting to be the “author of sin,”). The bigger question is whether Calvinists believe that it’s possible for God to adequately govern subjects who are libertarianly free? In other words, would God get overwhelmed by man's free-will? Such thinking undermines faith and trust in God’s wisdom, knowledge and power.

A.W. Tozer: “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

Some Calvinists have wrongly concluded that the non-Calvinist seeks to downplay the sovereignty of God and highlight the autonomy of man, when in reality we seek to maintain the right biblical understanding of man’s autonomy so as to better highlight the sovereignty, love and holiness of God.

All of scripture supports God’s “sovereignty.” The controversy is over how Calvinists try to redefine sovereignty to mean exhaustive, philosophical determinism, and the way that is accomplished is by citing the biblical word, “predestination.” However, the fact that God predestines some things does not necessarily mean that God predestines everything. Moreover, it is critical to correctly understand the manner in which God predestines things. For instance, God predestined to redeem good from evil, but that doesn’t necessarily mean He caused the evil He redeems.

Who are the ones who are really questioning God’s sovereignty? God can do whatever He wants. He can do things in the way described by Calvinism or non-Calvinism. Will Calvinists allow God enough sovereignty to providentially govern in a manner that may be inconsistent with their deterministic expectations?

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

God used extreme persuasion on Paul, Jonah and Balaam. Jonah had to be corrected. Balaam later rebelled and is deemed apostate in the book of Jude. I don't find any scripture where it is clear that God forces men to perform any action.

 

[Hammster]

Often in the Calvinist and non-Calvinist debate, Calvinists use the same vocabulary but a different dictionary. We all agree that God is sovereign, but we don’t all treat it to mean the same thing. Calvinists define “sovereignty” in a way that assumes Calvinism, such as Theistic “determinism,” namely the belief that God exhaustively and meticulously decreed whatsoever comes to pass (some call it first cause), whereas non-Calvinists interpret divine sovereignty to mean “dominion,” meaning God’s kingly right to rule as He pleases; God sits in the heavens and does what He pleases.

As a system of providence, while it’s true that “determinism” would give God an enormous amount of tight control, nonetheless for a variety of reasons, determinism may not have been God’s preferred choice (i.e. God not wanting to be the “author of sin,”). The bigger question is whether Calvinists believe that it’s possible for God to adequately govern subjects who are libertarianly free? In other words, would God get overwhelmed by man's free-will? Such thinking undermines faith and trust in God’s wisdom, knowledge and power.

A.W. Tozer: “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

Some Calvinists have wrongly concluded that the non-Calvinist seeks to downplay the sovereignty of God and highlight the autonomy of man, when in reality we seek to maintain the right biblical understanding of man’s autonomy so as to better highlight the sovereignty, love and holiness of God.

All of scripture supports God’s “sovereignty.” The controversy is over how Calvinists try to redefine sovereignty to mean exhaustive, philosophical determinism, and the way that is accomplished is by citing the biblical word, “predestination.” However, the fact that God predestines some things does not necessarily mean that God predestines everything. Moreover, it is critical to correctly understand the manner in which God predestines things. For instance, God predestined to redeem good from evil, but that doesn’t necessarily mean He caused the evil He redeems.

Who are the ones who are really questioning God’s sovereignty? God can do whatever He wants. He can do things in the way described by Calvinism or non-Calvinism. Will Calvinists allow God enough sovereignty to providentially govern in a manner that may be inconsistent with their deterministic expectations?

God used extreme persuasion on Paul, Jonah and Balaam. Jonah had to be corrected. Balaam later rebelled and is deemed apostate in the book of Jude. I don't find any scripture where it is clear that God forces men to perform any action.

Care to actually answer the questions?

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for your clarification, but I'm still not following.

Certainly, all of us could be more evil than we are. This is true of me, other Christians, atheists, Muslims, Hindus and everyone else. I know Christian-hating atheists who are kind, decent and far from thoroughly evil. Is the explanation for them not being thoroughly evil that God is "abating" their evilness? If that's your understanding, it's new to me.

The red horse of Revelation 6:4 is generally understood as a symbol of unrelenting war and bloodshed as its rider "takes peace from the earth." I don't see how this tells us anything about God having abated evil in the ages before he unleashed the red horse. As I said, I see little evidence in human history of God restraining or abating human evil. If this were true, I don't know how we would explain the Holocaust and a thousand other atrocities. The argument would have to be that "they would've been a lot worse without God's positive action" - but where is the evidence for this?

You cited me to verses concerning the transforming work of the Holy Spirit. OK, fine - I have experienced this in my own life and seen it in the lives of others. I'm not seeing the connection between the transforming work of the Holy Spirit and God abating evil.

The statement of yours to which I initially responded was that "I think He mostly acts in a positive fashion, otherwise evil would be unabated." I simply observed that what I see in human history looks an awful like unabated evil - i.e., little evidence of God acting in a positive fashion to restrain human evil. He may - perhaps the Holocaust could've been far worse - but I don't see it. Ergo, I don't try to get my mind around how God exercises the sovereignty He has.

You somehow interpreted my post as me saying that I am completely evil. I'm still not following that, so we'll let it go. I believe I am less evil after 50+ years as a Christian than I was before I became a Christian, but I don't believe I was anything like completely evil at my worst.

Do you believe that demons are unrestrained?

 

[Hammster]

We don't appear to be having what I would call a discussion, so I'll make this my last response and let it go.

You stated your view that God mostly acts in a positive manner; otherwise, evil would be unabated. My response was that human history looks (IMO) closer to unabated evil than abated. Not that God never acts in a positive manner, but that this does not seem to occur at the macro level of things like the Holocaust and a thousand other large-scale atrocities.

Demons are created beings that serve some purpose in God's plan for humanity (rather a mysterious purpose, IMO, as I suggested in a post above). Demons have only such power as God allows them to have. Consistent with my original response to you, I would have to say that He allows them to have very great - mysteriously great - power.

But it's generally not a power to accomplish direct evil. It's a power to deceive and influence, to steer humans away from God and in evil directions. Among the unsaved, I would have to say the power to deceive and influence appears to be pretty much unrestrained. If God were inclined to act in a positive manner, Hitler, Stalin and a hundred others could have been stopped in infancy. This was the point of my original response to you: Where is the evidence of the positive action you describe?

When we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we are no longer completely at the mercy of the demonic. To the extent we walk in the Spirit, the power of the demonic is indeed restrained to a degree that it is not in the unsaved. We are cloaked in the Spirit. And yet, we are not invulnerable. Why did God not act in a positive manner before Ravi Zacharias, the "most godly man in the world," completely destroyed his reputation, his worldwide ministry and his family - and made Christianity a laughingstock in the eyes of the unsaved for the umpteenth time?

As the creator and author of life, God is sovereign over all. As observed from the human perspective, however, the manner in which He exercises His sovereignty is mysterious and difficult to explain. It won't fit into any neat little box regardless of one's theology. This is why the greatest Christian challenge is simply to continue to trust.

So you say that demons’ evil is limited, but man has no such limitations based on your observations. Okay.

 

[fhansen]

It’s not often we agree on something.

Uh oh-better watch myself here . In any case it's good that we nail down the fact that God is like the gorilla in the room- who does whatever he wants to do. Now, if we could only agree on what He wants to do...

 

[John Mullally]

Care to actually answer the questions?

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

I am not going to answer hypothetical questions on God that assumes a premise that I disagree with based upon God's word. In this case, premises include that God's Will is always performed (by His design) and that God's influence cannot be resisted.

In Calvinism, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist, I believe that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely. Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach a Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should first attempt to prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it. Non-Calvinists argue from Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 that God Himself testifies that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

God influences people, but people frequently resist as Acts 7:51 says than the Holy Spirit is frequently resisted.

 

[Hammster]

I am not going to answer hypothetical questions on God that assumes a premise that I disagree with based upon God's word. In this case, premises include that God's Will is always performed (by His design) and that God's influence cannot be resisted.

In Calvinism, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist, I believe that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely. Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach a Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should first attempt to prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it. Non-Calvinists argue from Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 that God Himself testifies that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

God influences people, but people frequently resist as Acts 7:51 says than the Holy Spirit is frequently resisted.

While I have my opinion, there’s no presumption. Here’s the questions.

“Does God know every action man might freely choose?” It’s either yes or no. If it’s no, then explain why you think it’s no. If it’s yes, then they are follow up questions.

“If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose?” If your answer to the first question is yes, this is a logical question to answer.

“Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?” So is this one.

If you don’t want to participate in the thread as I’ve laid it out, then I respectfully ask that you don’t participate since the discussion is based on these questions.

 

[bling]

At times. Sometimes He acts in a positive fashion. In fact, I think He mostly acts in a positive fashion, otherwise evil would be unabated.

Here’s an example of what happens when He withdraws and lets man do his thing.

And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
— Revelation 6:4

When are you seeing God not "act in a positive fashion"? Everything God does or allows to happen is to help willing individuals in fulfilling their earthly objective. The "bad stuff" which seems to happen helps some willing individuals. The world is full of evil/sinning, but that just provides lots of opportunities for Godly type Love to be: seen, experienced, given, received, and grow.

 

[Hammster]

When are you seeing God not "act in a positive fashion"? Everything God does or allows to happen is to help willing individuals in fulfilling their earthly objective. The "bad stuff" which seems to happen helps some willing individuals. The world is full of evil/sinning, but that just provides lots of opportunities for Godly type Love to be: seen, experienced, given, received, and grow.

I said He acts mostly in a positive fashion. In fact, I’d argued it’s all positive because everything is for His glory, and He won’t let anything interfere with His glory.