Sometimes, yes. Often, no. The Problem of Evil has been and remains one of the greatest philosophical and theological challenges to the Christian belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God. You seem to be suggesting that scholarship is inherently suspect, as though great scholars don't read and think the about the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to inform their work. Of course, they do. In books like
God and the Problem of Evil: Five Views,
Amazon.com, non-Calvinist Christian scholars of the highest caliber wrestle with this issue. Why would I or any Christian not take advantage of a resource like this to help inform our own Bible reading and reflection?
Do you see death as being bad in and of itself?
Lots of innocent people have been killed in all wars and genocides, so is the Holocaust that much different?
Here are some questions to get you thinking:
1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?
2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?
3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had a problem?
4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?
5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?
6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?
7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?
Is God manipulating satan did have satan do what God will not do directly?
8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?
Look at this at least:
Job, He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.
1. This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.
2. First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans.
3. God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).
4. In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.
5. God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.
6. From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.
7. Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?
8. Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.
9. We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.
10. Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.
11. I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?
12. This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.
13. We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.
14. It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility they will not do.
At the end we see a changed Job:
1 Then Job replied to the LORD :
2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."
The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?
Here seems to be the problem: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—
From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.
Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, I know Lord (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced? If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better then anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.
Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.
Has the Holy Spirit communicated to you a clear understanding of how events such as the Holocaust, in which millions of Jews and non-Jews suffered utterly ghastly deaths and were deprived of any further opportunity for salvation, are consistent with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God? He hasn't to me. Perhaps you have an understanding of an issue that has confounded virtually everyone who has attempted to tackle it. My only answer is the one suggested in the Book of Job: something like the Holocaust simply cannot be explained from the human perspective, and we can only trust that one day we will understand how it is consistent with God as we believe Him to be.
Well, yes, death was bad for the millions of Holocaust victims who died in an unsaved state. Bad people not only quit doing bad stuff, but death deprives them of any opportunity to repent. An omnipotent, omnibenevolent God was willing to allow the evil of the Holocaust to bring a ghastly end to the lives of millions of people, most of them among His covenantal chosen people, thereby depriving them of any further opportunity for salvation, because ... ??? This is the Problem of Evil, and it has no easy answer.
Unless you're a Calvinist, of course. Then, those millions who died in the Holocaust simply weren't among the elect. They were vessels of wrath prepared for (ghastly) destruction, all to the glory of God! This is the glorious, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God of Calvinism, who strikes most people including me as not very glorious or benevolent. Sovereign, yes, but not exactly glorious or benevolent.
My quest over the past 50+ years, has been to get as close to the truth of Christianity as I am able in this lifetime. That's my "earthly objective." I am willing to consider any resource that my assist me. On many issues, however, I am forced to concede that no answer is entirely satisfactory from a human perspective and to trust that one day we will see how the real answer is consistent with the omnipotent, omnibenevolent God in whom we believe.
I like your heart and concern for others.
I do not believe in the doctrine of “original sin”, so I believe people are innocent and in a “safe” condition until they reach adult maturity and sin themselves. If they die in their innocence they would go to heaven, but would not have fulfilled their earthly objective thus lacking Godly type Love and having only a wonderful child for parent type love.
Everything needs to start with the objective.
The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment or direction of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s Objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?
There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.
Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.
This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).
There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)
Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.
God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.
If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.
Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.
God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).
What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.
This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).
This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.
All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).
Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.
Unfortunately, I, along with others, needed to see and know the brevity of life in order to respond sooner than later. Time is not on our side, since we do not get better, but worse. If everyone had at least 60 years, there would be no rush to repent and repenting does not get easier with time. We all tend to spiral down into the pigsty of life (like the prodigal son) and that does help, if when we do come to our senses we turn to the Father, but that does not have to take 60 years.
Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.
If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.
This also shows a “need” for man to sin.
