Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[bling]

How not? If one cause is under logical necessity of the other's causes, it is by definition, not first cause.

The one singular “first cause” will not logically result in many other things happening. For example: if one big bang causes energy, matter, space and time, but would not logically create life than another first cause is needed. Yes, energy, matter, space and time are needed for life, but life is not the logical result. Without another first “cause”, which is not the result of the first singular cause there is no life, so what caused life to come into existence?

Then logic is no cosmic law. But it is not that logic doesn't allow God to do anything, since logic proceeds FROM God, but rather that God has no need to deal with empty, self-contradictory, speculations. For example, no matter how knowledgeable or loving, God has no need to answer to anyone's self-contradictory notions. It is not that he can't, but that it is bogus nonsense to even consider that anything or anyone but God has absolute autonomy, no matter how narrow ("limited") its scope.

God is perfectly “Logical”, if we can understand Godly type Love as being logical for God.

Jesus (deity) answered the Pharisees’ “logic” with perfect logic and scripture. Could you follow His example?

 

[bling]

Oh my. Yes, God controlled that situation. God made the law. God made Satan. God allowed Satan in the Garden. God didn’t intervene. Why? Because the cross was the center point of His plan. It was the purpose for the creation.

I fully agree that Adam and Eve were set-up, with God knowing they would sin. I could have told God; man would sin in the Garden situation from my meager knowledge of man.

After sinning, being thrown out of the Garden, having limited resources, hardships, pain, and death to look forward to, Adam and Eve were now in a much better situation to fulfill their earthly objective. We and they can thank God for allowing us all, to see the negative issues with the Garden scenario.

The “Cross” is certainly the greatest expression of God’s and Christ’s Love and unselfishness for humans, but I wish, like Christ wished, there had been another way. I did want and need to understand cross, be crucified with Christ and accept that ransom payment.

God is totally unselfish when it comes to man, so what do you see as “God’s plan”?

 

[Hammster]

I fully agree that Adam and Eve were set-up, with God knowing they would sin. I could have told God; man would sin in the Garden situation from my meager knowledge of man.

No, you couldn’t have done that. Adam was the best of us.

After sinning, being thrown out of the Garden, having limited resources, hardships, pain, and death to look forward to, Adam and Eve were now in a much better situation to fulfill their earthly objective. We and they can thank God for allowing us all, to see the negative issues with the Garden scenario.

They were actually in a worse place. Sin is worse that not sinning.

The “Cross” is certainly the greatest expression of God’s and Christ’s Love and unselfishness for humans, but I wish, like Christ wished, there had been another way. I did want and need to understand cross, be crucified with Christ and accept that ransom payment.

God is totally unselfish when it comes to man, so what do you see as “God’s plan”?

The point is that God is sovereign over all things. When He told the serpent
“And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

it wasn’t because He looked ahead and saw that He won. It was because He ordered it to happen that way.

 

[bling]

No, you couldn’t have done that. Adam was the best of us.

God described “Adam” as being “very good” which could mean. “As good as a made being could be made”, but that is not “perfect” like the uncreated Deity, Christ, is perfect. The main thing Adam lacked was Godly type Love, which cannot be instinctive to Adam (a robotic type love [knee jerk reaction]) nor can God just force Adam to accept this Love (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the gun). Without this Love, Adam could not obey (if you love me you will obey me) and I can not see how Adam could humble himself to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (Love) as charity, when he had done nothing wrong.

They were actually in a worse place. Sin is worse that not sinning.

Our earthly objective is not: “never sin”. If that were the objective there would either; not even be a tree of knowledge in the center of the Garden, or the fruit would look bad, smell bad, be up an unclimbable mountain and satan would not be around. Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever in helping them in fulfilling their objective, so God allows humans to sin.

The point is that God is sovereign over all things. When He told the serpent
“And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

it wasn’t because He looked ahead and saw that He won. It was because He ordered it to happen that way.

Yes, God knew what He caused in man’s future, the death blow to satan and satan’s servants would crucify Christ, but God could remove satan at any time, so what is satan’s purpose for roaming the earth?

God is glorious and does not need us or anyone else to bring glory to Him. God glory can best be seen in His Love for sinful man (like the father in the prodigal son story) and as the greatest Lover He is the greatest giver to man which includes allowing Christ to go to the cross for us and because of us.

We talk differently about; “God’s sovereignty”, I see this messed up world with; Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, death, judgement, hell and sin, which God is causing and/or allowing as the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective. But if God is “controlling” all things, including man’s limited autonomous free will choices, then from all appearances God is doing a lousy job.

 

[Hammster]

But if God is “controlling” all things, including man’s limited autonomous free will choices, then from all appearances God is doing a lousy job.

Just in that sentence alone you have God controlling. For instance, if I have hose going full blast (free will) and put a kink in it (limits) I’m controlling the water. I can slow it, stop it, or let it run freely, depending on my purpose. So when you limit something in order to complete a task, it’s not truly free.

 

[bling]

Just in that sentence alone you have God controlling. For instance, if I have hose going full blast (free will) and put a kink in it (limits) I’m controlling the water. I can slow it, stop it, or let it run freely, depending on my purpose. So when you limit something in order to complete a task, it’s not truly free.

That is a very poor comparison, since we are talking about autonomous free will choices. If you said, “God controls the length of the hose so I can water either the roses or some weeds”, that would be a better analogy for limiting a choice. While God totally controlling the flow, means I have no choice in the matter of flow.

 

[concretecamper]

I think we can all agree that God is sovereign.

We can. But the rest of your post seems to indicate that you question it.

This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty.

So you propose limits on God?

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

I think you better think through your propositions and start another thread.

 

[Hammster]

That is a very poor comparison, since we are talking about autonomous free will choices. If you said, “God controls the length of the hose so I can water either the roses or some weeds”, that would be a better analogy for limiting a choice. While God totally controlling the flow, means I have no choice in the matter of flow.

Hmmm.

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

 

[Hammster]

We can. But the rest of your post seems to indicate that you question it.

Nope.

So you propose limits on God?

Nope

I think you better think through your propositions and start another thread.

Nope.

 

[bling]

That is a bit of a puzzle, eh? God allows a supernaturally intelligent, supernaturally evil Satan to enter the garden and beguile Eve and then roam the earth with his minions throughout the ensuing millennia, delighting in deceiving, harassing and even possessing humans. If God desired all to be saved, one might've thought we could do without supernaturally evil beings making things even more of a challenge. I'm surprised more Christians aren't troubled by this aspect of Christian theology. (Satan presumably sees his purpose as doing as much damage as he can in the time available to him, but this scarcely explains why God would allow this.)

My answer, such as it is, is that Christianity operates best at the level of symbolism and mystery. When we try to make it literally true, as though we could assemble all the pieces and make them fit, we just give ourselves headaches.

I greatly appreciate your comments and enjoy knowing what others are thinking.

From the first chapter of Job, we know satan is limited as to what he can and cannot do, by God.

In the Garden satan did not cause Eve to lust, covet and selfishly desire the fruit, but satan supported what wrong she was wanting to do and thus helped her and all of us to see the evil on her heart by telling her what she was wanting to hear and her eating.

Satan and satan’s children can directly hurt the innocent, which God cannot do but God can allow satan to do. God can directly or through satan, bring people home through ceasing to provide life and protection and can keep a sinner from doing more evil by them dying.

There are to always be lots of opportunities (hurting people) in this world so people can witness, experience, give, receive and grow Godly type Love.

 

[bling]

Hmmm.

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

Proverbs is very poetic, and we need to give some poetic license to these short phrases.
There are and some have been quoted on this thread which show man making free will choices.
We cannot say this is referring to all people, all the time or even all kings all the time, as I have said God can easily intervein and channel a heart, just because God can does not mean God always channels all hearts all the time.

 

[concretecamper]

Can God choose to stop the rock from falling on your head?

You keep questioning God's limits. Why?

 

[concretecamper]

God described “Adam” as being “very good” which could mean. “As good as a made being could be made”, but that is not “perfect” like the uncreated Deity, Christ, is perfect. The main thing Adam lacked was Godly type Love, which cannot be instinctive to Adam (a robotic type love [knee jerk reaction]) nor can God just force Adam to accept this Love (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the gun). Without this Love, Adam could not obey (if you love me you will obey me) and I can not see how Adam could humble himself to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (Love) as charity, when he had done nothing wrong

Adam and Eve were created with preternatural gifts. They were more perfect than you, me, or any other (except the BVM). Adam lacked nothing, that is what made his sin so grievous.

 

[Hammster]

God can easily intervein and channel a heart, just because God can does not mean God always channels all hearts all the time.

So you’ve been arguing against a point that nobody has made.

 

[Hammster]

You keep questioning God's limits. Why?

Have you ever heard of cross examination?

 

[concretecamper]

Have you ever heard of cross examination?

Yes, but why do you question God's limits?

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but why do you question God's limits?

I don’t. I questioned his understanding of God’s sovereignty.

 

[bling]

So you’ve been arguing against a point that nobody has made.

You quote a verse telling us only what God can do, but imply God is channeling the king's heart. God can do a lot of stuff but only does a few things.

 

[bling]

Adam and Eve were created with preternatural gifts. They were more perfect than you, me, or any other (except the BVM). Adam lacked nothing, that is what made his sin so grievous.

First off: what is “more perfect” since there is perfection and everything else is less than perfect. Adam is described by God as being “very good”, which I feel means: “As good as a created being could be made, but not “perfect” like Christ is perfect.” Can we agree on that?

Adam’s body could last forever with the help from the tree of life and he was raised (programmed) to adult maturity by the very best parent.

Adam lacked one very important ability, which all children lack and must obtain, when reaching maturity, while here on earth. This is a huge part of our earthly objective.

Everything is driven by the objective and the objective is not to live forever in heaven, but eternal life is one of the results of our fulfilling our earthly objective.

Has God given man a mission statement? (This is always good to have.)

You can take any command in scripture and have Biblical support for calling that command “Man’s Objective” and have Biblical support for saying that, but there are two overriding commands all other commands are bases on and subordinated to.

Would “Loving God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy” be our Mission statement given as a command?

God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the Lover is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measurement for pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all, but is totally for the sake of others [which would also be God’s sake])?

So, if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would He be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gifts He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So, to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill His Mission?

Man must have a very limited amount of autonomous free will to make at least the one choice to humbly accept or reject God’s Love (forgiveness/mercy/grace/charity).

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity, this will enable us to fulfill our mission.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it, so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

The Garden is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective and we can thank Adam and Eve for going through that example and providing us and them with that knowledge.

Sin is not only inevitable, but it is unfortunately necessary for humans.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By a free willing acceptance of God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

This world is “very good”, but not “perfect” like heaven is perfect and does not have the same purpose as heaven. This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

Death is not “bad” in and of itself, but the way good people go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

It is truly tragic and unfortunate that Christ had to be tortured, humiliated and murdered in order to help willing humans in their fulfilling of their objective, but God is willing to make huge sacrifices to help willing individuals. It is also very sad other humans who had the opportunity to fulfill their primary earthly objective continued to refuse God’s charity to the point they would never of their own free will accepted God’s charity. These God Loved individuals will thus go to their death and destruction as a help to some other humans who have not refused God’s help to the point of never accepting His help.

 

[Hammster]

You quote a verse telling us only what God can do, but imply God is channeling the king's heart. God can do a lot of stuff but only does a few things.

Does God have reasons for not doing something?