questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Albion]

I don't see where it says "the angel spoke for Job, but not because Job petitioned him".

More importantly, you don't see where it says that the angel spoke for Job because Job petitioned him. In fact, does the passage even tell us that the angel DID speak for Job?

 

[Asinner]

In fact, does the passage even tell us that the angel DID speak for Job?

And again . . . If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).

 

[Rowan]

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

...And Elijah appeared with Moses. Neither are spiritually dead. As I said, through Jesus Christ, no one is spiritually dead. To think so is inconsistent with the Gospel.

Where are we told that we have guardian angels and where are we told that they pray for us?

When the Psalms say God will set his angels in guard of us and when Peter is mistaken for his angel. Prayer is communication with God. They are our guardian angels who want our salvation. So they are unable to talk to God? Or do they just not talk about us to God?

I have a feeling you think this is really more esoteric than it really is.

I also noticed you didn't answer my other points.

All these new interpretations and websites are just wiggling out of verses they find uncomfortable. Anyone can do that and they do. No reason why we should believe their the definitive sources on the matter, since they are much younger than what we know to be the Faith.

(and yes, I know I'm appealing to antiquity. When you are talking about the Apostolic Faithof Christ, then such an appeal is obviously appropriate and not a fallacy, since we don't believe that the fundamentals of the faith have evolved, nor do we believe they should)

 

[Albion]

And again . . . If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).

Right. It was a hypothetical statement.
"IF there shall be...."

OUt of his desperation, Job was doing a lot of "thinking out loud" in that passage.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I also think the poetic nature of Job is being ignored.

 

[christianmomof3]

...And Elijah appeared with Moses. Neither are spiritually dead. As I said, through Jesus Christ, no one is spiritually dead. To think so is inconsistent with the Gospel.

I also noticed you didn't answer my other points.

When I use the word dead I am referring to physically dead. According to the scripture, Elijah did not die physically, but was taken up in a chariot of fire.
Sorry about missing other points - lots of pages showed up in here. I will insert my replies into your post to save time.

Hear only Jesus as in trusting no longer in the law; Christ fulfilled it. A great revelation for the faithful Jews. Not to pay no attention to Moses and Elijah and ask for them to pray for us in the New Covenant. They had been anticipating our salvation through Christ...why wouldn't they be praying for us? I have yet to see anywhere in the Bible that shows living people praying to physically dead people or being told to do so.

What makes Elijah not "dead"? 2 Kings 2:11
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


And in any case, it shows that they are not just doing nothing, and they can know what's going on in the world, not through their own power, but because of God's grace, just like passage after passage you have been shown does.
If God lets them know things, that is up to Him, but He did not ask us to talk to people who are physically dead - in fact, He told us not to do that.


Hades, or Death, has no hold on us anymore because Christ passed through it, recieved the righteous in Hades, and abolished Death. We hold this truth so strongly in our hearts, which is the reason why we don't call saints "dead people". God's people don't die! Christ made sure of that.
They die physically. Therefore they are dead.

Both angels and people in heaven are with God, unified by the Spirit. Just as our guardian angels pray for us, why not our saints?

Where in the Bible does it say that dead people are in heaven?
Where does it say that guardian angels pray for us?
I saw verses that say care for us and they may pray - but I don't think there is mention of it and there is certainly no mention of people being told to pray to angels.

The saints will judge the fallen angels...not even God's angels, but the saints. How will they do that if they do that without having known how they have tempted souls?

Yes the saints (not "Saints") will judge the fallen angels. I do not understand how the other question relates to praying to "Saints" or to angels though.

Why do the saints beg for God to take action in Revelations if they don't know what's been going on?

Maybe God told them what has been going on. Perhaps they watch and see. There is a verse about a cloud of witnesses - Hebrews 12:1 - which I think is about the martyrs.
But, that is on their part - not on ours.
We are never told to pray to "Saints" or angels or to anyone else except for God.

 

[christianmomof3]

If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).

How can an angel speak for Job? Is this "speaking for him" not synonymous with petitioning God? If not, then why not.

Is that this verse?
23 If there is with him an angel, An interpreter, one of a thousand, To declare to man what is right for him,

23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,


23[God's voice may be heard] if there is for the hearer a messenger or an angel, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to show to man what is right for him [how to be upright and in right standing with God],

I do not see anything here telling Job to pray to an angel or telling anyone to pray to an angel.

 

[christianmomof3]

When the Psalms say God will set his angels in guard of us and when Peter is mistaken for his angel. Prayer is communication with God. They are our guardian angels who want our salvation. So they are unable to talk to God? Or do they just not talk about us to God?[/FONT]

It appears that angels do watch over us.
And perhaps they pray for us - we don't know that and are not told that though.
And we are never told to pray to angels.

 

[christianmomof3]

Well, so far, I have not seen any verses that say that "Saints" or angels are to be prayed to. But if ya'll find one, please do share it.
I have another question though.
For those of you who do pray to "Saints" -
who do you think answers the prayers - the "Saints" or God?

 

[Asinner]

Well, so far, I have not seen any verses that say that "Saints" or angels are to be prayed to. But if ya'll find one, please do share it.
I have another question though.
For those of you who do pray to "Saints" -
who do you think answers the prayers - the "Saints" or God?

Christianmom,

The Scriptures are not explicit on all matters of doctrine. Baptism is a perfect example.

As for your second question. You reveal your misunderstanding of this praxis. We do not pray to a saint or an angel, thinking they will answer our prayer. We petition them and ask them to pray to God on our behalf (in much the same way if I asked you to pray for me). Was it the angel who gave Job mercy, or was it God?

Love,
Christina

 

[Rhamiel]

For those of you who do pray to "Saints" -
who do you think answers the prayers - the "Saints" or God?

what Christina said

 

[Albion]

Well, so far, I have not seen any verses that say that "Saints" or angels are to be prayed to. But if ya'll find one, please do share it.

By now we all know that none such exists. That's why we're being treated to so many diversionary posts that deal with everything but Biblical advice.

I have another question though.

For those of you who do pray to "Saints" -
who do you think answers the prayers - the "Saints" or God?

I doubt that anyone will admit to it, but the belief is held among RCs that both the saint and God can deliver what is prayed for. I suppose that it would be said that only God (or God and Mary, depending upon which Catholic is answering) can ultimately give what is asked, but many prayers to saints do explicitly include wording to the effect that the one being prayed to has the power to deliver.

 

[Rowan]

When I use the word dead I am referring to physically dead. According to the scripture, Elijah did not die physically, but was taken up in a chariot of fire.

Ok, but it seems like this physical death is a lead into a spiritual one...as if the saints are not or cannot be active.

Where in the Bible does it say that dead people are in heaven?

Hades is gone. Heaven and Hell are the only options.

(Honestly, this question hit me over the head, hence the admittedly lame answer...I never came across a Christian who denied this before).

Where does it say that guardian angels pray for us?

I saw verses that say care for us and they may pray - but I don't think there is mention of it and there is certainly no mention of people being told to pray to angels.

So they may pray...but we're wrong in assuming that they care enough about us to make mention of us in their talking with God?

People talked to angels in the Bible. You do know we mean the Old English meaning of the word, "pray" right? To "ask"? You've probably run across that point before, but it is crucial to the discussion. When Mary asked how the Virgin birth was possible, she was praying to Gabriel, for example.

Yes the saints (not "Saints") will judge the fallen angels. I do not understand how the other question relates to praying to "Saints" or to angels though.

The saints are the "Saints". It's not accurate to imply that we talk about two different categories of saints. Just because we point out a couple as exemplary we are well aware that they are more likely a fraction of all the saints in heaven.

The whole point is that when reading Revelation, the whole "they can't really know what's going on, so how can they pray for us?" point falls apart. They know enough to judge. So if they know enough for that, they wouldn't be moved to pray us out of our sin?

Maybe God told them what has been going on. Perhaps they watch and see. There is a verse about a cloud of witnesses - Hebrews 12:1 - which I think is about the martyrs.

It's about everyone: martyrs, monastics, holy fools, unmercenary healers, the Apostles, the seventy, etc...

But, that is on their part - not on ours.

I don't understand this point.

We are never told to pray to "Saints" or angels or to anyone else except for God.

Yeah, again, you're forgetting the "prayer" means more than prayer to God. Your definition is a relatively recent one.

I'd also like to point out that it's not necromancy. Necromancy is for the goal of divining the future through the "spirits". This is far from what happens when we ask angels and saints to pray for us.

 

[Rowan]

I saw your other points (though it wasn't picked up the first time because the answers were in the quotes), but I think my answer above answers those points too.

 

[Albion]

[/color]



People talked to angels in the Bible.

But they did not pray to them.

When Mary asked how the Virgin birth was possible, she was praying to Gabriel, for example.

Not in the sense of the word as the question here uses it. She did not ask the angel to intercede with the Father on her behalf, did she? No.

 

[christianmomof3]

[/color]


Hades is gone. Heaven and Hell are the only options.

(Honestly, this question hit me over the head, hence the admittedly lame answer...I never came across a Christian who denied this before).

I am not necessarily denying it, just asking where in the Bible we are told that.
I was raised in the Jewish religion and the concept of heaven and hell is not found in the Jewish religion.
It is a Christian concept.
It also appears to be one of those things that is not directly stated anywhere in the Bible.
I know that Paul said he hoped to be with the Lord after he died, but he did not say that would be in heaven as a specific place.
The only reference to a "place" that dead people"go to" is that of the rich man and Lazarus going to hades which is separated into a pleasant part and an unpleasant part by a chasm.

I have really never seen anywhere in the Bible that says "dead people go to heaven" - or to hell for that matter.
If you know of such a verse, please point it out to me.
According to the book of Revelation - which is symbolic - our ultimate goal is to be part of the holy city New Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth.
And, Satan and his followers will be judged and sent to the lake of fire, which is not hades or hell, but something else.

 

[Albion]

I am not necessarily denying it, just asking where in the Bible we are told that.
I was raised in the Jewish religion and the concept of heaven and hell is not found in the Jewish religion.
It is a Christian concept.
It also appears to be one of those things that is not directly stated anywhere in the Bible.

Well....I wouldn't go that far. There are a number of statements in the Bible that, if taken together, strongly suggest 1) a continuation of existence after physical death, and 2) eternal life or, conversely, eternal separation from God.

Now I know you'd like some evidence of what I'm speaking of. Consider Matt 6:20 and 1 Peter 1:4, also 2 Peter 2:9.

 

[Uphill Battle]

[/color]

Ok, but it seems like this physical death is a lead into a spiritual one...as if the saints are not or cannot be active.

there isn't any assertion that physically dead, spiritually alive saints cannot be active. The argument is if they can or do listen to peoples prayers, and take them to God the Father.

So they may pray...but we're wrong in assuming that they care enough about us to make mention of us in their talking with God?

nope. And that isn't the point either. The issue is, is there a biblical example of someone asking a departed saint, or an angel, to take their requests to God.

People talked to angels in the Bible. You do know we mean the Old English meaning of the word, "pray" right? To "ask"? You've probably run across that point before, but it is crucial to the discussion. When Mary asked how the Virgin birth was possible, she was praying to Gabriel, for example.

uh huh. now did she call for Gabriel? you know, ask him to come, "pray" to him at all? no. You have an angel bearing a message. (which is the most frequent example you will see regarding angel/human interaction.)

show me an example of a human asking for a saint or angel to talk with them, or, during the conversation, asking them for them to relate their request to God.

The saints are the "Saints". It's not accurate to imply that we talk about two different categories of saints. Just because we point out a couple as exemplary we are well aware that they are more likely a fraction of all the saints in heaven.

The whole point is that when reading Revelation, the whole "they can't really know what's going on, so how can they pray for us?" point falls apart. They know enough to judge. So if they know enough for that, they wouldn't be moved to pray us out of our sin?

maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Again, that isn't the point here.

 

[Kristos]

Not in vain do angels of God ascend and descend unto the Son of Man, beheld of eyes that have
been enlightened with the light of knowledge. In the very season of prayer, accordingly, being
reminded by the suppliant of his needs, they satisfy them as they have ability by virtue of their
general commission. To further the acceptance of our view we may make use of some such image
as the following in support of this argument.
Suppose that a righteously minded physician is at the side of a sick man praying for health, with
knowledge of the right mode of treatment for the disease about which the man is offering prayer.
It is manifest that he will be moved to heal the suppliant, surmising, it may well be not idly, that
God has had this very action in mind in answer to the prayer of the suppliant for release from the
disease. Or suppose that a man of considerable means, who is generous, hears the prayer of a poor
man offering intercession to God for his wants. It is plain that he, too, will fulfil the objects of the
poor man’s prayer, becoming a minister of the fatherly counsel of Him who at the season of the
prayer had brought together him who was to pray and him who was able to supply and by virtue
of the rightness of his principles, incapable of overlooking one who has made that particular request.
As therefore we are not to believe that these events are fortuitous, when they take place because
He who has numbered all the hairs of the head of saints, has aptly brought together at the season
of the prayer the hearer who is to be minister of His benefaction to the suppliant and the man who
has made his request in faith; so we may surmise that the presence of the angels who exercise
oversight and ministry for God is sometimes brought into conjunction with a particular suppliant
in order that they may join in breathing his petitions.
Nay more, beholding ever the face of the Father in heaven and looking on the Godhead of our
Creator, the angel of each man, even of “little ones” within the church, both prays with us, and acts​

with us where possible, for the objects of our prayer.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Not in vain do angels of God ascend and descend unto the Son of Man, beheld of eyes that have
been enlightened with the light of knowledge. In the very season of prayer, accordingly, being
reminded by the suppliant of his needs, they satisfy them as they have ability by virtue of their
general commission. To further the acceptance of our view we may make use of some such image
as the following in support of this argument.
Suppose that a righteously minded physician is at the side of a sick man praying for health, with
knowledge of the right mode of treatment for the disease about which the man is offering prayer.
It is manifest that he will be moved to heal the suppliant, surmising, it may well be not idly, that
God has had this very action in mind in answer to the prayer of the suppliant for release from the
disease. Or suppose that a man of considerable means, who is generous, hears the prayer of a poor
man offering intercession to God for his wants. It is plain that he, too, will fulfil the objects of the
poor man’s prayer, becoming a minister of the fatherly counsel of Him who at the season of the
prayer had brought together him who was to pray and him who was able to supply and by virtue
of the rightness of his principles, incapable of overlooking one who has made that particular request.
As therefore we are not to believe that these events are fortuitous, when they take place because
He who has numbered all the hairs of the head of saints, has aptly brought together at the season
of the prayer the hearer who is to be minister of His benefaction to the suppliant and the man who
has made his request in faith; so we may surmise that the presence of the angels who exercise
oversight and ministry for God is sometimes brought into conjunction with a particular suppliant
in order that they may join in breathing his petitions.
Nay more, beholding ever the face of the Father in heaven and looking on the Godhead of our
Creator, the angel of each man, even of “little ones” within the church, both prays with us, and acts​

with us where possible, for the objects of our prayer.

where is this from?

It takes an incredible leap of logic about halfway through.

"we know that God is using the rich man to take care of the poor man who prayed, thus answering the poor mans prayer, hence we can surmise that the Angels speak to God on our behalf?"

very very strange.