questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Rhamiel]

Do you think there are "Saints" or people in heaven whom your church did not vote in?

oh yes, I am sure there are many many many people in heaven who is not recognized by the Church as a Saint, the title of Saint is for people with a heroic devotion to faith in Christ.

 

[christianmomof3]

As far as guardian angels- Acts 12.14-15 - Matt 18.10 - Gen 48.16

Thank you for the verses. I knew about the ones in Acts and Matthew but had not thought about the one in Genesis. Those verses do show that angels serve us. But, I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying to angels or being told to pray to them.

 

[Albion]

If any one of us were really open-minded on the subject, we'd have to admit that the complete absence of any Biblical reference about praying to the deceased or to angels is very significant, especially when we consider all the many places in scripture where praying and how to pray are described.

 

[Uphill Battle]

If any one of us were really open-minded on the subject, we'd have to admit that the complete absence of any Biblical reference about praying to the deceased or to angels is very significant, especially when we consider all the many places in scripture where praying and how to pray are described.

specifically if this is going to "traditionally" be a major part of Christian worship/living.

 

[Thekla]

I repeated myself by accident

 

[Thekla]

Thank you for the verses. I knew about the ones in Acts and Matthew but had not thought about the one in Genesis. Those verses do show that angels serve us. But, I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying to angels or being told to pray to them.

if one thinks of pray in its broader meaning, as communication/awareness, then examples do exist (Mary communicates with Gabriel, Zachariah is another example ...)

 

[Albion]

if one thinks of pray in its broader meaning, as communication/awareness, then examples do exist (Mary communicates with Gabriel, Zachariah is another example ...)

I don't think that will wash. After all, Catholics/Orthodox here argue frequently that "praying" is nothing but asking, so "What's the problem?," they conclude.

In those examples you gave, there isn't any petition delivered to the angel to be passed on to the Father, is there?

 

[Thekla]

I don't think that will wash. After all, Catholics/Orthodox here argue frequently that "praying" is nothing but asking, so "What's the problem?," they conclude.

In those examples you gave, there isn't any petition delivered to the angel to be passed on to the Father, is there?

what is narrowly translated as prayer encompasses many terms, all sharing "communicate". Passing on a petition is one form of communication.

 

[Albion]

Passing on a petition is one form of communication.

And that's the one that is relevant to this discussion. As I said, if Mary had asked the angel to carry a petition to the Father, you'd have a case. But we know that she did not, so all you can deduce from this is that every "communication" with the dead or angels is not necromancy, and nothing about prayer to the saints.

 

[Thekla]

And that's the one that is relevant to this discussion. As I said, if Mary had asked the angel to carry a petition to the Father, you'd have a case. But we know that she did not, so all you can deduce from this is that every "communication" with the dead or angels is not necromancy, and nothing about prayer to the saints.

"... the Kingdom of heaven is within you ..." teaches Christ

the Saints, the angels, those with whom we share a spiritual connection in this life -- all are connected in the Holy Spirit

proseuche can mean the act of prayer or the place where it occurs (a physical location). To the Christian, the location includes the spiritual heart of the believer.

our thoughts, actions, in this sense share more or less (depending on our disposition) with the spiritual realm (heaven). We cannot but be heard by those who are in heaven.

the question becomes, which is more "real/true" - our physical or our spiritual life.

 

[Albion]

"... the Kingdom of heaven is within you ..." teaches Christ

By which Christ meant that HE--the Kingdom--was in their midst, i.e. within their company. He was saying to them that the Kindgom was not something that was coming in the future, and certainly not something political, but the Messiah himself.

the Saints, the angels, those with whom we share a spiritual connection in this life -- all are connected in the Holy Spirit

...which has nothing to do with prayers to the deceased or to angels. We are connected in some sense, but that doesn't mean "anything goes" as to how we respond to this understanding.

 

[Thekla]

By which Christ meant that HE--the Kingdom--was in their midst, i.e. within their company. He was saying to them that the Kindgom was not something that was coming in the future, and certainly not something political, but the Messiah himself.



...which has nothing to do with prayers to the deceased or to angels. We are connected in some sense, but that doesn't mean "anything goes" as to how we respond to this understanding.

and within; the Christian belongs to the body of Christ -- the body is either sundered or not. If the Saints and angels are not in the body of Christ, then they are not of God.

 

[Uphill Battle]

and within; the Christian belongs to the body of Christ -- the body is either sundered or not. If the Saints and angels are not in the body of Christ, then they are not of God.

it's a misrepresentation to assume that if someone is not contactable, they are "sundered."

I can't talk to my Grandmother who is somewhere else (without a phone, anyways.) we are not in contact. Is she sundered from my family, because I am unable to reach her?

 

[Thekla]

it's a misrepresentation to assume that if someone is not contactable, they are "sundered."

I can't talk to my Grandmother who is somewhere else (without a phone, anyways.) we are not in contact. Is she sundered from my family, because I am unable to reach her?

in the context of the discussion, the "sundering" is death (Saints) and between the spiritual (noetic) and physical worlds (Saints, angels)

 

[Uphill Battle]

in the context of the discussion, the "sundering" is death (Saints) and between the spiritual (noetic) and physical worlds (Saints, angels)

and?

 

[Thekla]

and?

I'm not sure what you are asking ...

 

[Albion]

and within; the Christian belongs to the body of Christ -- the body is either sundered or not. If the Saints and angels are not in the body of Christ, then they are not of God.

which still does not answer the question of whether it is proper to direct prayers to saints or not. But we know that the Bible doesn't show us any examples of it...and even Tradition can't justify it since there is no kernel of a Bible truth to embellish (i.e. Tradition). We just have to believe revelation and not rationalize until we find some linguistic loophole.

 

[Asinner]

If any one of us were really open-minded on the subject, we'd have to admit that the complete absence of any Biblical reference about praying to the deceased or to angels is very significant, especially when we consider all the many places in scripture where praying and how to pray are described.

Why do the angels who are before the throne of God have our prayers in their possession? (Rev 5 and 8)

 

[Asinner]

But, I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying to angels or being told to pray to them.

Repeating . . . how then do the angels obtain our prayers? By what method, if not through prayer?

 

[Albion]

Repeating . . . how then do the angels obtain our prayers? By what method, if not through prayer?

We may safely assume that they are aware that the faithful on Earth do pray to God. That is consistent with the Revelation imagery.