Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I don't see where it says "the angel spoke for Job, but not because Job petitioned him".
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Where are we told that we have guardian angels and where are we told that they pray for us?
And again . . . If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).
When I use the word dead I am referring to physically dead. According to the scripture, Elijah did not die physically, but was taken up in a chariot of fire....And Elijah appeared with Moses. Neither are spiritually dead. As I said, through Jesus Christ, no one is spiritually dead. To think so is inconsistent with the Gospel.
I also noticed you didn't answer my other points.
Where in the Bible does it say that dead people are in heaven?Hear only Jesus as in trusting no longer in the law; Christ fulfilled it. A great revelation for the faithful Jews. Not to pay no attention to Moses and Elijah and ask for them to pray for us in the New Covenant. They had been anticipating our salvation through Christ...why wouldn't they be praying for us? I have yet to see anywhere in the Bible that shows living people praying to physically dead people or being told to do so.
What makes Elijah not "dead"? 2 Kings 2:11
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
And in any case, it shows that they are not just doing nothing, and they can know what's going on in the world, not through their own power, but because of God's grace, just like passage after passage you have been shown does.
If God lets them know things, that is up to Him, but He did not ask us to talk to people who are physically dead - in fact, He told us not to do that.
Hades, or Death, has no hold on us anymore because Christ passed through it, recieved the righteous in Hades, and abolished Death. We hold this truth so strongly in our hearts, which is the reason why we don't call saints "dead people". God's people don't die! Christ made sure of that.
They die physically. Therefore they are dead.
Both angels and people in heaven are with God, unified by the Spirit. Just as our guardian angels pray for us, why not our saints?
Yes the saints (not "Saints") will judge the fallen angels. I do not understand how the other question relates to praying to "Saints" or to angels though.The saints will judge the fallen angels...not even God's angels, but the saints. How will they do that if they do that without having known how they have tempted souls?
Maybe God told them what has been going on. Perhaps they watch and see. There is a verse about a cloud of witnesses - Hebrews 12:1 - which I think is about the martyrs.Why do the saints beg for God to take action in Revelations if they don't know what's been going on?
Is that this verse?If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).
How can an angel speak for Job? Is this "speaking for him" not synonymous with petitioning God? If not, then why not.
It appears that angels do watch over us.When the Psalms say God will set his angels in guard of us and when Peter is mistaken for his angel. Prayer is communication with God. They are our guardian angels who want our salvation. So they are unable to talk to God? Or do they just not talk about us to God?[/FONT]
Well, so far, I have not seen any verses that say that "Saints" or angels are to be prayed to. But if ya'll find one, please do share it.
I have another question though.
For those of you who do pray to "Saints" -
who do you think answers the prayers - the "Saints" or God?
Well, so far, I have not seen any verses that say that "Saints" or angels are to be prayed to. But if ya'll find one, please do share it.
I have another question though.
For those of you who do pray to "Saints" -
who do you think answers the prayers - the "Saints" or God?
When I use the word dead I am referring to physically dead. According to the scripture, Elijah did not die physically, but was taken up in a chariot of fire.
Where in the Bible does it say that dead people are in heaven?
Where does it say that guardian angels pray for us?
I saw verses that say care for us and they may pray - but I don't think there is mention of it and there is certainly no mention of people being told to pray to angels.
Yes the saints (not "Saints") will judge the fallen angels. I do not understand how the other question relates to praying to "Saints" or to angels though.
Maybe God told them what has been going on. Perhaps they watch and see. There is a verse about a cloud of witnesses - Hebrews 12:1 - which I think is about the martyrs.
But, that is on their part - not on ours.
We are never told to pray to "Saints" or angels or to anyone else except for God.
[/color]
People talked to angels in the Bible.
When Mary asked how the Virgin birth was possible, she was praying to Gabriel, for example.
I am not necessarily denying it, just asking where in the Bible we are told that.[/color]
Hades is gone. Heaven and Hell are the only options.
(Honestly, this question hit me over the head, hence the admittedly lame answer...I never came across a Christian who denied this before).
I am not necessarily denying it, just asking where in the Bible we are told that.
I was raised in the Jewish religion and the concept of heaven and hell is not found in the Jewish religion.
It is a Christian concept.
It also appears to be one of those things that is not directly stated anywhere in the Bible.
there isn't any assertion that physically dead, spiritually alive saints cannot be active. The argument is if they can or do listen to peoples prayers, and take them to God the Father.[/color]
Ok, but it seems like this physical death is a lead into a spiritual one...as if the saints are not or cannot be active.
nope. And that isn't the point either. The issue is, is there a biblical example of someone asking a departed saint, or an angel, to take their requests to God.So they may pray...but we're wrong in assuming that they care enough about us to make mention of us in their talking with God?
uh huh. now did she call for Gabriel? you know, ask him to come, "pray" to him at all? no. You have an angel bearing a message. (which is the most frequent example you will see regarding angel/human interaction.)People talked to angels in the Bible. You do know we mean the Old English meaning of the word, "pray" right? To "ask"? You've probably run across that point before, but it is crucial to the discussion. When Mary asked how the Virgin birth was possible, she was praying to Gabriel, for example.
maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Again, that isn't the point here.The saints are the "Saints". It's not accurate to imply that we talk about two different categories of saints. Just because we point out a couple as exemplary we are well aware that they are more likely a fraction of all the saints in heaven.
The whole point is that when reading Revelation, the whole "they can't really know what's going on, so how can they pray for us?" point falls apart. They know enough to judge. So if they know enough for that, they wouldn't be moved to pray us out of our sin?
where is this from?Not in vain do angels of God ascend and descend unto the Son of Man, beheld of eyes that havewith us where possible, for the objects of our prayer.
been enlightened with the light of knowledge. In the very season of prayer, accordingly, being
reminded by the suppliant of his needs, they satisfy them as they have ability by virtue of their
general commission. To further the acceptance of our view we may make use of some such image
as the following in support of this argument.
Suppose that a righteously minded physician is at the side of a sick man praying for health, with
knowledge of the right mode of treatment for the disease about which the man is offering prayer.
It is manifest that he will be moved to heal the suppliant, surmising, it may well be not idly, that
God has had this very action in mind in answer to the prayer of the suppliant for release from the
disease. Or suppose that a man of considerable means, who is generous, hears the prayer of a poor
man offering intercession to God for his wants. It is plain that he, too, will fulfil the objects of the
poor man’s prayer, becoming a minister of the fatherly counsel of Him who at the season of the
prayer had brought together him who was to pray and him who was able to supply and by virtue
of the rightness of his principles, incapable of overlooking one who has made that particular request.
As therefore we are not to believe that these events are fortuitous, when they take place because
He who has numbered all the hairs of the head of saints, has aptly brought together at the season
of the prayer the hearer who is to be minister of His benefaction to the suppliant and the man who
has made his request in faith; so we may surmise that the presence of the angels who exercise
oversight and ministry for God is sometimes brought into conjunction with a particular suppliant
in order that they may join in breathing his petitions.
Nay more, beholding ever the face of the Father in heaven and looking on the Godhead of our
Creator, the angel of each man, even of “little ones” within the church, both prays with us, and acts
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?