Questions for Sabbath practitioners

[JLB777]

Quite easily actually. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant to which all the sacrificial laws were attached to. All the animal sacrifices, the meat and drink offerings along with the Levitical Priesthood and the laws of the earthly Sanctuary for the remission of sins are now all fulfilled in Christ

Great agreed!

Now all you need to do is post the scripture whereby Jesus Christ or His Apostles commanded the Church to observe the Sabbath, with specific instructions as to how, such as can we cook, can we travel, can ministers who minister at the Church work on the Sabbath...?



JLB

 

[BobRyan]

Great agreed!

Now all you need to do is post the scripture whereby Jesus Christ or His Apostles commanded the Church to observe the Sabbath, with specific instructions as to how, such as can we cook, can we travel, can ministers who minister at the Church work on the Sabbath...?

JLB

Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" Matt 19:17

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God (not just the Gospel writers) - 2 Tim 3:16... "and is to be used for doctrine".

No wonder Jesus said

Luke 16: 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

Jesus said
Mark 7:

7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
​

Jesus said
John 14:

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves

​

Jesus condemned any attempt by his disciples to ignore scripture:
Luke 24:
25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.
..
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

John 16:

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
​

2. "The Holy Spirit said" is the NT view of OT scripture
- Heb 3:

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As on the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers put Me to the test,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My anger,
‘They certainly shall not enter My rest.’”​

Paul said that the commandments of God include the TEN having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

 

[Cribstyl]

1. ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God (not just the Gospel writers) - 2 Tim 3:16... "and is to be used for doctrine".
2. "The Holy Spirit said" - Heb 3:

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As on the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers put Me to the test,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My anger,
‘They certainly shall not enter My rest.’”​

No wonder Jesus said Luke 16: 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" Matt 19:17

Jesus said
Mark 7:

7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
​

Jesus said
John 14:

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves

​

Jesus condemned any attempt by his disciples to ignore scripture:
Luke 24:
25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

..
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

LOL, I just noticed in your post how Jesus is calling the first 5 books of the bible, "The law of Moses." What do you think?

 

[BobRyan]

LOL, I just noticed in your post how Jesus is calling the first 5 books of the bible, "The law of Moses." What do you think?

I think "the Law and the prophets" is a phrase that had been used by Jewish believers in the one true God for a very long time.

But only a certain part of the Law has "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

err... am I supposed to add 'LOL' here??

 

[JLB777]

Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" Matt 19:17

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God (not just the Gospel writers) - 2 Tim 3:16... "and is to be used for doctrine".

No wonder Jesus said

Luke 16: 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

Jesus said
Mark 7:

7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
​

Jesus said
John 14:

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves

​

Jesus condemned any attempt by his disciples to ignore scripture:
Luke 24:
25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.
..
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

John 16:

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
​

2. "The Holy Spirit said" is the NT view of OT scripture
- Heb 3:

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As on the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers put Me to the test,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My anger,
‘They certainly shall not enter My rest.’”​

Paul said that the commandments of God include the TEN having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Please show us where Jesus Christ or any writers of the New Testament instructed the Church as to how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

 

[daq]

LOL, I just noticed in your post how Jesus is calling the first 5 books of the bible, "The law of Moses." What do you think?

This "sect" to which Paul belonged is obviously the sect of the Nazarenes, (as noted elsewhere in the scripture).

Acts 28:22-27 ASV
22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.
23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came to him into his lodging in great number; to whom he expounded the matter, testifying the kingdom of God, and persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and from the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Spirit through Isaiah the prophet unto your fathers,
26 saying, Go thou unto this people, and say, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive:
27 For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest, haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.

So the sect of the Nazarenes understands the Messiah and the kingdom of Elohim from both the Torah and the Prophets: and it appears from the above statement, the final statement of Paul herein, that those who do not have hardened hearts, and are dull of hearing, and have closed their eyes, lest they should be healed by Elohim.

This is where I'll go ahead and add my LOL.

 

[Leaf473]

This "sect" to which Paul belonged is obviously the sect of the Nazarenes, (as noted elsewhere in the scripture).

Acts 28:22-27 ASV
22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.
23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came to him into his lodging in great number; to whom he expounded the matter, testifying the kingdom of God, and persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and from the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Spirit through Isaiah the prophet unto your fathers,
26 saying, Go thou unto this people, and say, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive:
27 For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest, haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.

So the sect of the Nazarenes understands the Messiah and the kingdom of Elohim from both the Torah and the Prophets: and it appears from the above statement, the final statement of Paul herein, that those who do not have hardened hearts, and are dull of hearing, and have closed their eyes, lest they should be healed by Elohim.

This is where I'll go ahead and add my LOL.

My impression is that Paul uses the law and the prophets when talking to Jews, but when he's talking to the Greeks in Athens who don't have experience with that he appeals to the Greek poets that they know.

 

[daq]

My impression is that Paul uses the law and the prophets when talking to Jews, but when he's talking to the Greeks in Athens who don't have experience with that he appeals to the Greek poets that they know.

The wall of separation having been removed means that the gentiles are now able to enter into the inner court of the circumcision. This is likely at least one of the reasons Paul says that the Messiah has become the Minister of the Circumcision, (Romans 15:8-9). This is probably bad news for those who believe they get to remain gentiles forever. Paul is sent to call those who are willing to enter into the faith and become Yhudim, (see Romans 2:28-29).

 

[Leaf473]

The wall of separation having been removed means that the gentiles are now able to enter into the inner court of the circumcision. This is likely at least one of the reasons Paul says that the Messiah has become the Minister of the Circumcision, (Romans 15:8-9). This is probably bad news for those who believe they get to remain gentiles forever. Paul is sent to call those who are willing to enter into the faith and become Yhudim, (see Romans 2:28-29).

Definitely, become part of spiritual Israel.

Paul does speak of an Israel according to the flesh. I can't become part of that, as I understand it.

 

[BobRyan]

My impression is that Paul uses the law and the prophets when talking to Jews, but when he's talking to the Greeks in Athens who don't have experience with that he appeals to the Greek poets that they know.

Until we read Paul's writings and find his quotes of the "scripture" being used as authoritative - even above his own writing... for example Eph 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

two key parts to that statement by Paul

1. Eph 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

2 'Honor your father and mother' (which is the first commandment with a promise),

part 1 is Paul writing - an inspired writer.
part 2 is Paul quoting the Word of God - a direct appeal "to authority"
part 3 is Paul specifically referencing the "unit of Ten" which is that "unit of law" where "Honor your father and mother" is the first commandment with a promise.

 

[BobRyan]

Please show us where Jesus Christ or any writers of the New Testament instructed the Church as to how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is old testament - Jer 31:31-34 and is in the context of the LAW and the SABBATH known to Jeremiah and his readers - as given by GOD in the scriptures... and quoted from those very texts in the NT.

Details matter.

 

[Leaf473]

Until we read Paul's writings and find his quotes of the "scripture" being used as authoritative - even above his own writing... for example Eph 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

two key parts to that statement by Paul

1. Eph 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

2 'Honor your father and mother' (which is the first commandment with a promise),

part 1 is Paul writing - an inspired writer.
part 2 is Paul quoting the Word of God - a direct appeal "to authority"
part 3 is Paul specifically referencing the "unit of Ten" which is that "unit of law" where "Honor your father and mother" is the first commandment with a promise.

Paul didn't write Ephesians to the Greeks in Athens. That was the context of my comment.

Peace be with you, my brother!

 

[BobRyan]

Paul didn't write Ephesians to the Greeks

Turns out - the church of Ephesus was a gentile church in Asia. Do you have a map?

Do you have access to the book of Acts?

Acts 19:
17 This became known to all who lived in Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified. 18 Also many of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. 19 And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they added up the prices of the books and found it to be fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So the word of the Lord was growing and prevailing mightily.

 

[Leaf473]

Turns out - the church of Ephesus was a gentile church in Asia. Do you have a map?

Do you have access to the book of Acts?

Acts 19:
17 This became known to all who lived in Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified. 18 Also many of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. 19 And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they added up the prices of the books and found it to be fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So the word of the Lord was growing and prevailing mightily.

I said the Greeks in Athens.

 

[BobRyan]

I said the Greeks in Athens.

Because gentiles in Athens were less informed than greeks in Ephesus in your POV??? what is your point?

Paul appeals to either direct quotes from scripture or direct doctrine from scripture with the Greeks - over and over again... in fact "every Sabbath" as we see in Acts 18:4 and in the case of the gentiles in Acts 13 where "almost the entire city" shows up "the next Sabbath".

 

[Leaf473]

Because gentiles in Athens were less informed than greeks in Ephesus in your POV??? what is your point?

Paul appeals to either direct quotes from scripture or direct doctrine from scripture with the Greeks - over and over again... in fact "every Sabbath" as we see in Acts 18:4 and in the case of the gentiles in Acts 13 where "almost the entire city" shows up "the next Sabbath".

If we go back to my post to daq, my point was this:

My impression is that Paul uses the law and the prophets when talking to Jews, but when he's talking to the Greeks in Athens who don't have experience with that he appeals to the Greek poets that they know.

Yes, Paul does use scriptural concepts on Mars hill. As far as I can see, he doesn't quote any scripture directly.

My larger point is that Paul, similar to Jesus, dealt with people where they were and used reference points they would accept.

 

[JLB777]

The New Covenant is old testament

Testament means Covenant. Covenant is a synonym of Testament.


New means new as in fresh or renewed.


The covenant The Lord Jesus (before He became flesh) made with Abraham, to which the law of Moses was added temporarily, has been “renewed” and is therefore called the New Covenant.


This is why we are called the sons of Abraham.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3:7


That’s why the scripture says the blessing of Abraham has come upon the Gentiles.


that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:14



The Sabbath is simply a day of rest for man.







JLB

 

[BobRyan]

Testament means Covenant. Covenant is a synonym of Testament.

I missread the previous post - so this one is edited

The Bible says "I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.” Jer 31:31-34

It is repeated verbatim -- unchanged - in Heb 8.

Some people in the past have claimed that the New Covenant in Jer 31 should not be OT... or they say that Heb 8 should have said "I MADE a new Covenant". Either way I think the language allows it in the OT in Jer 31, and allows that the "WILL make" language does not mean it is not in force already so then Heb 8 is not "deleting it" nor is Jer 31.

In fact in Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel (so only one Gospel covenant) and that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

 

[JLB777]

The Bible says "I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.” Jer 31:31-34

Amen. New Covenant.

New = Refreshed; Renewed




JLB

 

[JLB777]

In fact in Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel (so only one Gospel covenant) and that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Yes, preached to Abraham.

Abraham repented, which means he turned to God, and by default he turned away from his old life to follow the Lord.




JLB